ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[godrulz]

God does things because it pleases Him first and foremost. God is sovereign. God is selfish and self centered. He is also loving , kind and gentle. He is also arbitrary and vengeful. But more than any of those He is righteous and by His nature, God.

Selfishness is the antithesis of love. Putting Himself first is the right thing, not the selfish thing. He is worthy because of His great value, not because He has an ego or is insecure.

Knowing you, you do not understand arbitrary. God is impartial, loving, just, holy, etc., but He is NOT arbitrary, fickle, capricious.

 

[godrulz]

Want to make a bet?

I will bet as long as you do not buy a dictionary or grow a brain to go with it.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I see your point, pork rind, pig breath, sow, moron.:sam:

this mutual admiration society between you & muz today is making me sick!

 

[godrulz]

You're either "in Adam" or "in Christ". In Adam all die. In Christ all live.

No beef, pork, turkey, chicken, fish with that concept.

Likewise (paid announcement), you are either saved by the gospel of Christ in the NT or not at all (there is no circ vs uncirc TM after the cross).

 

[godrulz]

this mutual admiration society between you & muz today is making me sick!

I can steal you an emesis bag if you want. I do not agree with everything Muz says, but he does have a depth of understanding, training, and ability to think that we can all learn from. I don't imagine he likes many of my ideas, but at least he can dialogue maturely without resorting to childish tantrums.

I also bribe Philetus to boost my ego since I am a voice crying in the wilderness half the time (I am not winning a popularity context here, but I honestly feel I am generally on the right track about a few things, at least).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I can steal you an emesis bag if you want. I do not agree with everything Muz says, but he does have a depth of understanding, training, and ability to think that we can all learn from. I don't imagine he likes many of my ideas, but at least he can dialogue maturely without resorting to childish tantrums.

I also bribe Philetus to boost my ego since I am a voice crying in the wilderness half the time (I am not winning a popularity context here, but I honestly feel I am generally on the right track about a few things, at least).

Atleast when Muz disagrees with you, he doesn't make it his life's mission to oppose & ridicule you...as he does with Mid-Acts (unsuccessfully)

 

[godrulz]

Atleast when Muz disagrees with you, he doesn't make it his life's mission to oppose & ridicule you...as he does with Mid-Acts (unsuccessfully)

If I promoted Mid-Acts, he would oppose and ridicule me (successfully).

 

[Philetus]

God does things because it pleases Him first and foremost. God is sovereign. God is selfish and self centered. He is also loving , kind and gentle. He is also arbitrary and vengeful. But more than any of those He is righteous and by His nature, God.

Yeah, everything about the cross suggests that God is selfish and self-centered.

God is not God by His nature. His nature doesn't make Him God. God is God and has a divine nature, period. If God had decided to not save Noah on the ark, just wipe it all out and start over, would God have ceased to be God?

I thought you said God does what He does because He has no choice to do otherwise, "it is his nature". Make up your mind E.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

If I promoted Mid-Acts, he would oppose and ridicule me (successfully).

Nearly everything he believes contradicts Acts 2 dispensationalism, also.
He doesn't seem bent on attempting to destroy Acts 2, however.

Atleast Acts 2 doesn't fully try to rob Israel of their eternal purpose, as his
covenant ideas do. You're much closer to the truth.

 

[elected4ever]

Yeah, everything about the cross suggests that God is selfish and self-centered.

God is not God by His nature. His nature doesn't make Him God. God is God and has a divine nature, period. If God had decided to not save Noah on the ark, just wipe it all out and start over, would God have ceased to be God?

I thought you said God does what He does because He has no choice to do otherwise, "it is his nature". Make up your mind E.

I did and what i said is true. if you are having a problem dealing with it I'm sorry. Your view of God is screwed. You can't just take the parts you like and ignore the rest.

 

[Philetus]

Not because of anything of value in us. He did it for us, for Himself.

God may have seen some value in the potential we have for reflections of His Glory. There may even be some value in His desire to have a relationship outside of Himself with significant others who He created for this purpose. I'm not so quick to dismiss God's creation as totally valueless. Seems God isn't either since He went to such trouble and expense to redeem it.

 

[godrulz]

I did and what i said is true. if you are having a problem dealing with it I'm sorry. Your view of God is screwed. You can't just take the parts you like and ignore the rest.

Your Christology is still defective (deny His Deity), but at least your spelling is improving.

 

[Philetus]

I can steal you an emesis bag if you want. I do not agree with everything Muz says, but he does have a depth of understanding, training, and ability to think that we can all learn from. I don't imagine he likes many of my ideas, but at least he can dialogue maturely without resorting to childish tantrums.

I also bribe Philetus to boost my ego since I am a voice crying in the wilderness half the time (I am not winning a popularity context here, but I honestly feel I am generally on the right track about a few things, at least).

Your payment is due. :greedy:

 

[Philetus]

Atleast when Muz disagrees with you, he doesn't make it his life's mission to oppose & ridicule you...as he does with Mid-Acts (unsuccessfully)

Muz? Unsuccessful? Never!

 

[Mystery]

God may have seen some value in the potential we have for reflections of His Glory. There may even be some value in His desire to have a relationship outside of Himself with significant others who He created for this purpose. I'm not so quick to dismiss God's creation as totally valueless. Seems God isn't either since He went to such trouble and expense to redeem it.

I don't want to get into another subject on this thread to discuss this, but it has to do with who He is that He saved us, not who we are.

In Romans 3:10 " All have turned aside, together they have become useless"

The term "useless" literally means without any worth.


“…who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.”
…Romans 11:35

There is nothing in us that is of any value to God, He loves us because He is love.

 

[Philetus]

I did and what i said is true. if you are having a problem dealing with it I'm sorry. Your view of God is screwed. You can't just take the parts you like and ignore the rest.

Sure I can. Everybody is doing it. It's call the "ignore" button. It's like the 'easy' button only better. It's the technical version of spray-painting a page here and there in your bible.

 

[Philetus]

I don't want to get into another subject on this thread to discuss this, but it has to do with who He is that He saved us, not who we are.

In Romans 3:10 " All have turned aside, together they have become useless"

The term "useless" literally means without any worth.


“…who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.”
…Romans 11:35

There is nothing in us that is of any value to God, He loves us because He is love.

That is every bit as much the subject as anything in the past 50 pages of this thread. The only way we can know who we are and why we are here is to understand who God is and why He put us here. To reduce man to mere this or that without personhood is to besmirch the character and person of God in a covert and demeaning way. Love is ascribing worth and value in and to the other.

It isn't love that we loved God but rather that He first loved us. To reflect that glory is to love Him and to love one another. What bothers me most about your position of absolute worthlessness is that it so easily translates into disregard for the lost ... how we tend to write off our neighbors as worthless human beings; you know the least of these.

 

[godrulz]

God has value and worth because of who He is in His being. We have value and worth because we are in the Imago Dei. This is why Francis Schaeffer argues against abortion and euthanasia, because he understands this biblical truth. The image of God in man is defaced, not erased, marred, not destroyed. Christ does not die for and redeem junk.

I am not sure why I made this point. It seems so off topic to OT?!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Here is Overstreet's point on the proof text:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs02.htm

Overstreet, like his mentor Finney, complains:
"the one great problem of original sin is that it clashes with man's irresistible convictions of justice"

In other words, Overstreet just doesn't "feel" the doctrine of original sin is "right".

Yet Overstreet's alternative proposal is nothing more than the same depraved, graceless, theology held by his spiritual ancestors, Finney and Pelagius. This is grave error and not worthy of being associated with Christianity.

 

[Mystery]

That is every bit as much the subject as anything in the past 50 pages of this thread. The only way we can know who we are and why we are here is to understand who God is and why He put us here. To reduce man to mere this or that without personhood is to besmirch the character and person of God in a covert and demeaning way. Love is ascribing worth and value in and to the other.

It isn't love that we loved God but rather that He first loved us. To reflect that glory is to love Him and to love one another. What bothers me most about your position of absolute worthlessness is that it so easily translates into disregard for the lost ... how we tend to write off our neighbors as worthless human beings; you know the least of these.

You just said that we are to love our neighbors. We love, because He first loved us. If we only love our neighbors because ther is something in them worthy of our love, then we will begin to place more worth on some and less on others. God had to bring all of us to the same level of complete and utter depravity in order to make the riches of His glory known to all. Have you never read the book of Romans? What do you think Paul is saying in chapters 2-5?

"But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise how will God judge the world?"

God’s righteousness is magnified through the revelation of our unrighteousness. Man may think that it is unjust for God to judge us when we have no choice but to be who we are… unrighteous, unholy, dead, sinners. However, it is necessary to show us our condition so that we will turn to God to find grace and mercy.

This cuts to the core of the gospel. Your view of God and man is distorted, and you are attempting to close the gap on God's righteousness and man's unrighteousness. You are destroying the work of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel (God is right, and you are not). God gave the Law to reveal the enormity of the chasim between God and man, so that man would see that he is utterly hopeless, utterly lost, and completely dead. We are wholly in darkness, and God's enemies. You blaspheme His sacrifice when you give that which He died for value.