ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[godrulz]

... death came to all men because... who sinned?

Muz

Romans 3:23 (and Rom. 1-3) reminds us that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. We cannot blame Adam, Satan, potty training, parents, friends, teachers. We must take responsibility for our own selfish rebellion.

Adam's sin was the occasion for sin entering the world with the consequence of physical depravity and propensity to sin entering the human race (and passed on...we are all tainted by death). Adam's sin was not the cause of Clinton 'not having sex with that woman'. Clinton's will, mind, and sex organs were the cause of his wrong choices. Many other atheists from the seed of Adam have remained sexually pure because they did not chose to smoke cigars, etc.

Physical death comes to all men as a consequence of Adam's sin. Spiritual and eternal death comes to the individual because they all follow in Adam's footsteps (moral depravity is not genetic, but volitional).

Romans 1:18 ff. shows that the wrath of God comes on men because of their own wickedness, not because their parents conceived them and we can all trace our roots to Adam, the common ancestor of men.

Is this on the right track muz?

(I have been mandated to not learn from or teach the other guy that confuses metaphysics and morals).

 

[elected4ever]

e4e, that is bizzare. I can't believe that just happened. :noid:

yea, with about 2000 miles between us.

:idea: Maybe Muz should pay attention.

 

[godrulz]

this simply demonstrates the problem with your theology. Your response was laughable.

I read the whole thing, and you twisted Romans 5 up so badly that the simple response was all that was necessary.

Muz

I agree. All sinned, not just one sinned. I am part of the all who actually sinned after birth, not in the loins of Adam.

There is a difference between sound exegesis of Romans 5 and proof texting divorced from other equally true verses in Romans (not to name names, of course).

 

[godrulz]

The only ones who were around when the law was unknown were Adam and Eve. When they sinned, they gained the knowledge of good and evil, which is passed on to us all.

Muz

Adam and Eve and Lucifer were condemned as 'sinners' before the Law in Exodus. God's law of love and truth predates the stone tablets and is based on His character, not words alone.

 

[themuzicman]

Romans 3:23 (and Rom. 1-3) reminds us that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. We cannot blame Adam, Satan, potty training, parents, friends, teachers. We must take responsibility for our own selfish rebellion.

Adam's sin was the occasion for sin entering the world with the consequence of physical depravity and propensity to sin entering the human race (and passed on...we are all tainted by death). Adam's sin was not the cause of Clinton 'not having sex with that woman'. Clinton's will, mind, and sex organs were the cause of his wrong choices. Many other atheists from the seed of Adam have remained sexually pure because they did not chose to smoke cigars, etc.

Physical death comes to all men as a consequence of Adam's sin. Spiritual and eternal death comes to the individual because they all follow in Adam's footsteps (moral depravity is not genetic, but volitional).

Romans 1:18 ff. shows that the wrath of God comes on men because of their own wickedness, not because their parents conceived them and we can all trace our roots to Adam, the common ancestor of men.

Is this on the right track muz?

(I have been mandated to not learn from or teach the other guy that confuses metaphysics and morals).

Yeah, that's pretty good. I don't usually make a big deal of calling death physical or spiritual, although there are a couple of aspects of death: Actual physical death, and the judgment that comes when we physically die. I might start calling that spiritual death eventually, but it's been co-opted by Calvinists to mean something else entirely.

Muz

 

[godrulz]

Apparently mystery wants me to fall into the same evil trap that got Clete and GodRulz.

Muz

Which trap? Getting warned into silence? I appreciate your exegesis, Muz.

 

[themuzicman]

We're in dire need of a full biblical theology of Romans, as folks tend to pick out individual sections and imposing their own meaning without considering what Paul has already said on the subject and is intending to say in a given section.

Muz

 

[Philetus]

Romans 3:23 (and Rom. 1-3) reminds us that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God. We cannot blame Adam, Satan, potty training, parents, friends, teachers. We must take responsibility for our own selfish rebellion.

Adam's sin was the occasion for sin entering the world with the consequence of physical depravity and propensity to sin entering the human race (and passed on...we are all tainted by death). Adam's sin was not the cause of Clinton 'not having sex with that woman'. Clinton's will, mind, and sex organs were the cause of his wrong choices. Many other atheists from the seed of Adam have remained sexually pure because they did not chose to smoke cigars, etc.

Physical death comes to all men as a consequence of Adam's sin. Spiritual and eternal death comes to the individual because they all follow in Adam's footsteps (moral depravity is not genetic, but volitional).

Romans 1:18 ff. shows that the wrath of God comes on men because of their own wickedness, not because their parents conceived them and we can all trace our roots to Adam, the common ancestor of men.

Is this on the right track muz?

(I have been mandated to not learn from or teach the other guy that confuses metaphysics and morals).

:thumb:
Now, on to the GOOD NEWS ...





(Clinton SMOKED cigars, too????)

 

[godrulz]

Yeah, that's pretty good. I don't usually make a big deal of calling death physical or spiritual, although there are a couple of aspects of death: Actual physical death, and the judgment that comes when we physically die. I might start calling that spiritual death eventually, but it's been co-opted by Calvinists to mean something else entirely.

Muz

I Timothy 5:6 It is possible to be dead, even while alive.

Death is separation.

Physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body, not cessation of existence of the real person. Jesus and believers die physically, despite being sinless or redeemed.

Spiritual death is separation of sinful man from a holy God. Ephesians 2 shows that unbelievers are at enmity with God and objects of wrath, spiritually dead while physically alive.

The Second Death, eternal death, lake of fire is eternal separation of the unregenerate from God's presence and place of reigning (heaven).

'Born again' remedies these issues for the believer.

 

[themuzicman]

Which trap? Getting warned into silence? I appreciate your exegesis, Muz.

Being baited into returning his personal attacks with more personal attacks, until Knight has to step in to keep things semi-civil. Apparently Mystery and Mr. Religion are trying to divide and conquer, since they can't do it from Scripture.

Muz

 

[Clete]

God has declared me righteous, not by anything I have done. You should know that, Clete. It's salvation 101.

This point has already been covered and you're right, I do know that. I know it very well, indeed!

The point you missed is that the righteousness that has been imputed was not imputed by divine fiat but was based on one Man's righteous act. Romans 5:18

People do wrong because they are unrighteous, and those who commit righteousness do so because they are righteous. They are not either because of what they do. They do what they do because of what they are.

Not so. People are held responsible for their actions, not their nature. On judgment day, no one will be sent to Hell because they have a fallen nature but because they are themselves guilty of their own sin. It a man's own unrighteousness that disqualifies him for heaven, not Adam's, not their father's nor anyone else's.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more:

‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.​

Now, I have an interesting question which I will pose to Mystery because of his Romans 5 post which he cited earlier but feel free to offer an answer yourself as well if you like.

Mystery,

How do you reconcile your interpretation of Romans 5 with the Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 passages quoted above?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

We're in dire need of a full biblical theology of Romans, as folks tend to pick out individual sections and imposing their own meaning without considering what Paul has already said on the subject and is intending to say in a given section.

Muz

Amen. I second that motion. Of course, Calvinistic vs Arminian filters will affect our understanding.

 

[Mystery]

We're in dire need of a full biblical theology of Romans, as folks tend to pick out individual sections and imposing their own meaning without considering what Paul has already said on the subject and is intending to say in a given section.

Muz

The text is beyond yours, or anyone else's to dispute. Nothing has been taken out of context, and the complete and accurate interpretation of the text in Romans 5 is in the thread I linked.

Your pride refuses to accept that you are wrong about this fundamental doctrine regarding the first and second Adam.

As in Adam ALL DIE, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive.

ALL men are condemned dead sinners, because of one man's disobedience.

ALL men who come to Christ by faith are made alive and given the gift of righteousness because of ONE MAN's obedience.

End of story.

 

[themuzicman]

I Timothy 5:6 It is possible to be dead, even while alive.

Death is separation.

Physical death is separation of spirit-soul from body, not cessation of existence of the real person. Jesus and believers die physically, despite being sinless or redeemed.

Spiritual death is separation of sinful man from a holy God. Ephesians 2 shows that unbelievers are at enmity with God and objects of wrath, spiritually dead while physically alive.

The Second Death, eternal death, lake of fire is eternal separation of the unregenerate from God's presence and place of reigning (heaven).

'Born again' remedies these issues for the believer.

Yeah, well, this is where a study of how Paul uses "death" is useful. In Eph 2:1 "dead in your sins" refers to the wrath that awaits the unbeliever upon his physical death. I liken it to someone on death row. They aren't dead, yet, but we call them "dead men walking" because of their condemned state.

In that sense, we can be "dead", even while we live, in the same way that those who are on death row are.

Death isn't really separation. It's the cessation of life, in the literal sense. When our bodies cease to live, then it is dead, and we are off to judgment, either justified before God, or to be judged with eternal wrath. The "second death" refers to those who will not receive life. I'm not an annihilationist, but I certainly see where this concept supports their position very nicely.

For those of us who are not, the "Second death" refers to the eternal judgment of those who die not having placed their faith in God for salvation upon their physical death, thus being the 2nd and final result of physical death without faith.

Muz

 

[Mystery]

Mystery,

How do you reconcile your interpretation of Romans 5 with the Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 passages quoted above?

Surely, you don't think they contradict Paul, do you?

Funny how you guys "rightly divide" when it suits your purposes.

I'll get to it later.

What is also troubling is that whenever someone's pet doctrine is exposed as faulty, they will not address the text that proves them in error, but they have no problem requesting that you now address their one or two verses that are contrary to the whole of the rest of the bible as they interpret them.

 

[Philetus]

The text is beyond yours, or anyone else's to dispute. Nothing has been taken out of context, and the complete and accurate interpretation of the text in Romans 5 is in the thread I linked.

Your pride refuses to accept that you are wrong about this fundamental doctrine regarding the first and second Adam.

As in Adam ALL DIE, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive.

ALL men are condemned dead sinners, because of one man's disobedience.

ALL men who come to Christ by faith are made alive and given the gift of righteousness because of ONE MAN's obedience.

End of story.

One question:

How do you reconcile the ALL in all shall be made alive in Christ and then reduce it to ALL as in all who come to Christ by faith?

If your universal blanket coverage holds true in condemnation, sin and death ... why not in life through Christ as well?

Philetus

 

[elected4ever]

This point has already been cover and you're right, I do know that. I know it very well, indeed!

The point you missed is that the righteousness that has been imputed was not imputed by divine fiat but was based on one Man's righteous act. Romans 5:18


Not so. People are held responsible for their actions, not their nature. On judgment day, no one will be sent to Hell because they have a fallen nature but because they are themselves guilty of their own sin. It a man's own unrighteousness that disqualifies him for heaven, not Adam's, not their father's nor anyone else's.

Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:

‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more:

‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.​

Now, I have an interesting question which I will pose to Mystery because of his Romans 5 post which he cited earlier but feel free to offer an answer yourself as well if you like.

Mystery,

How do you reconcile your interpretation of Romans 5 with the Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 31 passages quoted above?

Resting in Him,
Clete

none

 

[Mystery]

Being baited into returning his personal attacks with more personal attacks, until Knight has to step in to keep things semi-civil. Apparently Mystery and Mr. Religion are trying to divide and conquer, since they can't do it from Scripture.

Muz

I just exegeted the entire chapter of Romans 5 you lying piece of pork.

Why don't you put me on ignore, you overgrown sow. You can't debate, so you resort to lying and making false accusations.

You're pathetic. Grow some rind, and debate the text or shut your chops, bacon breath.

 

[themuzicman]

The text is beyond yours, or anyone else's to dispute. Nothing has been taken out of context, and the complete and accurate interpretation of the text in Romans 5 is in the thread I linked.

Your pride refuses to accept that you are wrong about this fundamental doctrine regarding the first and second Adam.

As in Adam ALL DIE, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive.

ALL men are condemned dead sinners, because of one man's disobedience.

ALL men who come to Christ by faith are made alive and given the gift of righteousness because of ONE MAN's obedience.

End of story.

I go back to the text:

All die because ... who sinned?

Paul's point, here, is that death comes to everyone because of Adam's sin, and justification comes to all men because of Christ's sacrifice.

Neither is imposed upon us because of the one man, but are embraced by us: death when we sin, justification when we believe. (See Rom 5:18)

Muz

 

[Mystery]

One question:

How do you reconcile the ALL in all shall be made alive in Christ and then reduce it to ALL as in all who come to Christ by faith?

If your universal blanket coverage holds true in condemnation, sin and death ... why not in life through Christ as well?

Philetus

Because that is what the text teaches. It teaches that all men have the justification of life in Christ. Not all men are in Christ. How is it that people cannot understand someting so simple without having to jump to some theological construct?

Jesus dies fior ALL sins, for ALL men, for ALL, time. God was propitiated and ALL men are reconciled to God by the death of His son Romans 5:10. So, why are not all men saved, because salvation is not having Jesus die for your sins. Salvation is receiving His life. Jesus had to cleanse you before He could fill you with His life. Not all men receive His life. It is in His life that we have redemption the forgiveness of our sins. It is ALL in Him. It's ALL about Him, and nothing about us.