I understand! You believe it is Gods will when children are kidnapped, raped and murdered! Your view of God is slanderous and despicable! Repent!!!!
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Mystery
New member
What does having cheese on my burger or not have to do with the Scriptures?
Evoken
New member
God does not wills moral evil per se, he simply permits it for the sake of some greater good.
Evo
"...the display of His greatness..." Sounds right to me.
Then your anger towards PastorKevin for changing his avatar is misplaced. Your anger should be towards God...correct? If it was God who predestined PastorKevin to do that which causes you to get angry...then it is God that you should be angry at.
But wait...God predestined your anger at PastorKevin. So you aren't really angry...you're just playing out the "script" of life that God wrote out in eternity past.
I get it now...you were just acting! Good one.
Explain to me how a person who cannot do otherwise deserves any credit for any action, whether good or bad?
You seem willing enough to acknowledge that we humans must have free will in order for God to justly punish sins and reward acts of righteousness, why are you not willing to extend the same reasoning toward crediting God with righteousness? All I am really doing is arguing from the definition of the term 'righteous' and you are effectively responding by saying that my definition of righteousness is wrong but you aren't offering any rational alternative definition, which I don't even see how you could really. I mean the word means what it means and my whole point is that your theology is in contradiction to the meaning of the word 'righteous'.
You think that my understanding of righteousness does injury to the text of Scripture when it says that it is impossible for God to lie and yet I absolutely affirm that indeed it is impossible for God to lie but it isn't that He cannot but that He does not want to and no one can compel God to act against His will.
Here's the reasoning in syllogistic form...
- It is impossible to cause God to act in opposition to His own will.
- God wills not to lie*
- Therefore it is impossible for God to lie.
Resting in Him,
Clete
* Actually God, though His prophets, has told lies on more than one occasion and has rewarded others for doing the same. Of course, He has done so righteously but I thought it important to make the point anyway.
Actually that is the beauty of the open view.Come on open theists, if you are gonna promote an open view, go all the way, like, well, er, no one!
To be an open theist you can believe in degrees of openness without there being any contradiction whatsoever. It's very reasonable for Open Theists to disagree upon how much God chooses to close via His power to bring things to pass.
Yet the settled viewer has no such luxury.
If all of time has been settled in advance there are no degrees of "settled-ness". It's completely settled with no exceptions (any exception would result in openness).
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Do you mean to imply that all determinists settle for contradiction? This is not so.
I, for one, do not believe there is any contradiction in the Word of God. And yet, I believe all things have been determined and are sovereignly brought to pass by God.
What "contradiction" do you believe those of the SV should settle for?
That's correct.
No exceptions; no contradictions.
Nang
No, in fact I just complemented you on your consistency, remember?
I was referring to the AMR crowd who prefers to spread compatibilism cream on their blemishes.
Nor do I.
PKevman
New member
Good points CM. I am not worried about it. He flipped out because he has nothing of substance to say, so he has to resort to lame tactics such as complaining about my stupid avatar. Not as if Rambo isn't a well-known fictional character.
PKevman
New member
AMR said:
The man was not born blind so that God could heal his blindness AMR. You have misunderstood that text.
Calvinists ignore the rest of the text because it doesn't fit in with their faulty views of God.
Here it is:
John 9:1-7
Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned. But that the works of God should be revealed in him, I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
Periods and commas were not a part of the original Greek text AMR. Calvinists have affected the majority of our Bible translations, so a Calvinist who comes along is going to insert a comma there in order to stretch the meaning of the text to fit their theology. The problem is that it DOES NOT fit the text.
Jesus was asked:
“Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
To which He answered:
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned."
So the man was just born blind is the point AMR. Neither this man nor his parents were responsible for the man being born blind.
THEN Jesus went on and said:
But that (or so that) the works of God should be revealed in him, I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
In other words Jesus was saying, SO THAT the works of God should be revealed in him, I will heal him. Then Jesus did just that AFTER He said those things!
Mystery
New member
That's an easy one.
At one time I was credited with being a sinner, even though I had not sinned in the likeness of Adam.
Now I am credited with being righteous, even though I have not obeyed in the likeness of Jesus.
I do, where?
Free will only extends as far as the nature. God does not send anyone to hell for their sins, and He does not receive anyone into heaven because of their righteousness.
You are free to act as far as your nature will allow you, just as God is only free to act as His nature allows. Regarding righteousness, the only free will you have is to accept His as a gift or to reject it. And, you would not even know about His righteousness if it were not for the gospel where it is revealed. The gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. The gospel makes it possible for you to exchange your nature for His.
I did address this. The word "righteous" is from the word "right". God is right, and we are not. We cannot fully comprehend the rightness of God anymore than we can fully comprehend His light, or His holiness.
It is impossible for God to lie because His nature will not allow it.
God's nature cannot lie
Therefore it is impossible for God to lie.
PKevman
New member
The Psycho Roofer (By Pastor Kevin)
The Psycho Roofer (By Pastor Kevin)
To illustrate how utterly wicked Calvinists views on God are, and how they have distorted John 9 and the story of the blind man, I present this story:
The Psycho Roofer
Betty and Josh were coming home from church. It was a chilly November Sunday night, and they had just come from some particularly exciting services at church. The Pastor had delivered a great sermon, and Betty and Josh knew they had some things to get straight between them in their marriage. They had decided to go home and pray together about it first thing.
As they were pulling their old Ford Taurus into the driveway, Betty turned and gave her husband a peck on the cheek. Josh smiled and parked the car in the garage.
Shivering, Betty wrapped her arm around Josh's arm as they walked into the house, snuggling up close to him to stay warm. Josh unlocked the door, and they entered their home.
"Josh, it's sure cold in here," Betty said, stammering.
"I'll go check the heat, honey," Josh replied, "I'm sure it just got accidentally bumped and knocked down."
Josh walked to the end of the hallway off of the kitchen (where the thermostat was). As he did, he heard the furnace running in the furnace closet. He checked the thermometer and saw it was still set to 74'. Despite this the temperature was below 45' in the house!
"Josh, come here." Betty said, alarm in her voice.
Josh went back into the front room, and he saw Betty looking up at the ceiling over the living room. Sure enough, the ceiling had a big hole in it about 4' by 4'.
"Oh great. What are we going to do? Do you think Danny will come over and fix it?" Betty said.
Danny was a Mr. Fix-it-all kind of guy that Josh and Betty knew from church. He had in fact been the man who put their roof on when they had re-roofed several years before.
Josh called him, and Danny agreed to come over, saying, "I'd be glad to come over and help you out brother. That's my ministry after all. Serving others."
Josh informed Betty and they both went out to the garage (which was heated) to stay warm until Danny arrived.
Danny was extremely prompt, and arrived within 20 minutes. It took him a little over an hour and a half to get the roof patched up. He had all of the materials with him in the back of his truck.
When Danny was finished, Josh thanked him and said, "Let me pay you something brother for your trouble."
"Oh no," Danny exclaimed, "I won't accept your money for this. Like I said, it's my ministry."
"WOW! What a blessing Danny. I cannot say enough how thankful I am to the Lord that you came over and helped us out like this. Such a wonderful thing you have done." Betty said.
"Well, I kinda knew you would feel that way, Betty." Danny said, "That's why I came over here while you all were at church, and I climbed up on your roof with a sledgehammer, and I broke out that part of your roof, because I knew you would get a blessing by my coming over here to fix it for you."
The lesson:
In this situation, how would you respond if you were Josh and Betty? Would you then glorify him and say what a wonderful person he was? Or would you say he was sick and twisted for making them go through that just to bring them a blessing? This is how Calvinists paints God when they say that He caused the man to be born blind so that He could then turn around and heal him!
God is not like the psycho roofer in this story!! CALVINISM is wrong!!
The Psycho Roofer (By Pastor Kevin)
To illustrate how utterly wicked Calvinists views on God are, and how they have distorted John 9 and the story of the blind man, I present this story:
The Psycho Roofer
Betty and Josh were coming home from church. It was a chilly November Sunday night, and they had just come from some particularly exciting services at church. The Pastor had delivered a great sermon, and Betty and Josh knew they had some things to get straight between them in their marriage. They had decided to go home and pray together about it first thing.
As they were pulling their old Ford Taurus into the driveway, Betty turned and gave her husband a peck on the cheek. Josh smiled and parked the car in the garage.
Shivering, Betty wrapped her arm around Josh's arm as they walked into the house, snuggling up close to him to stay warm. Josh unlocked the door, and they entered their home.
"Josh, it's sure cold in here," Betty said, stammering.
"I'll go check the heat, honey," Josh replied, "I'm sure it just got accidentally bumped and knocked down."
Josh walked to the end of the hallway off of the kitchen (where the thermostat was). As he did, he heard the furnace running in the furnace closet. He checked the thermometer and saw it was still set to 74'. Despite this the temperature was below 45' in the house!
"Josh, come here." Betty said, alarm in her voice.
Josh went back into the front room, and he saw Betty looking up at the ceiling over the living room. Sure enough, the ceiling had a big hole in it about 4' by 4'.
"Oh great. What are we going to do? Do you think Danny will come over and fix it?" Betty said.
Danny was a Mr. Fix-it-all kind of guy that Josh and Betty knew from church. He had in fact been the man who put their roof on when they had re-roofed several years before.
Josh called him, and Danny agreed to come over, saying, "I'd be glad to come over and help you out brother. That's my ministry after all. Serving others."
Josh informed Betty and they both went out to the garage (which was heated) to stay warm until Danny arrived.
Danny was extremely prompt, and arrived within 20 minutes. It took him a little over an hour and a half to get the roof patched up. He had all of the materials with him in the back of his truck.
When Danny was finished, Josh thanked him and said, "Let me pay you something brother for your trouble."
"Oh no," Danny exclaimed, "I won't accept your money for this. Like I said, it's my ministry."
"WOW! What a blessing Danny. I cannot say enough how thankful I am to the Lord that you came over and helped us out like this. Such a wonderful thing you have done." Betty said.
"Well, I kinda knew you would feel that way, Betty." Danny said, "That's why I came over here while you all were at church, and I climbed up on your roof with a sledgehammer, and I broke out that part of your roof, because I knew you would get a blessing by my coming over here to fix it for you."
The lesson:
In this situation, how would you respond if you were Josh and Betty? Would you then glorify him and say what a wonderful person he was? Or would you say he was sick and twisted for making them go through that just to bring them a blessing? This is how Calvinists paints God when they say that He caused the man to be born blind so that He could then turn around and heal him!
God is not like the psycho roofer in this story!! CALVINISM is wrong!!
I think I have a handle on what you are saying, and I think I sort of agree, but I still wouldn't phrase it the way you do. I would say that God can not sin because his nature does not allow Him to want to.
JoyfulRook
New member
Was Ask Mr. Religion predestined to be banned before the foundation of the world? Or did the administration staff excercise their free will on the "ban" button? :think:
Mystery
New member
God can only will that which He can do.
Do you believe that God is free?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Mystery
New member
As free as His nature will allow.
He cannot deny Himself.
He cannot lie.
He cannot become darkness.
He cannot be tempted by evil.
He cannot (not will not) do anything against His nature.
SOTK
New member
Have any of you Open Theists spent much time thinking about nature and how nature may back-up either the settled or open view?
I went camping for a week with my family and church family last week. I just love the outdoors. Where we went camping was just absolutely beautiful. The gorge we were in was spectacular and with out a doubt showed the creation of God. It was obvious to me that where we were camping was once flooded with water. As I looked around, it was unmistakable that water slowly and deliberately carved out the beauty of this gorge. Now, not only did I observe deliberate creation for the purpose of showing God's existence, but I observed a practical purpose of this creation. That gorge has been used for trade, recreation, and sustenance by men. Did God plan this? Or Was He pleasantly surprised by His creation's (man) use of this natural creation?
Wondering how you Open Theist's see creation (nature) within your theology?
I went camping for a week with my family and church family last week. I just love the outdoors. Where we went camping was just absolutely beautiful. The gorge we were in was spectacular and with out a doubt showed the creation of God. It was obvious to me that where we were camping was once flooded with water. As I looked around, it was unmistakable that water slowly and deliberately carved out the beauty of this gorge. Now, not only did I observe deliberate creation for the purpose of showing God's existence, but I observed a practical purpose of this creation. That gorge has been used for trade, recreation, and sustenance by men. Did God plan this? Or Was He pleasantly surprised by His creation's (man) use of this natural creation?
Wondering how you Open Theist's see creation (nature) within your theology?
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