ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[elected4ever]

Pastor Kevin

God said that everything He had created was good AFTER the 6th day of creation. So it logically infers that sin, Satan's fall, & man's fall had not happened yet. We are not told exactly when Satan fell either, but we know it was sometime after God had created everything.

In that Satan was of a different creation it can logically follow that sin had a beginning before the creation of the earth and man. God only instructs us on the creation of the earth but He also created the heavens which He does not instruct us on. If you consign the heavens to the six days of the earth then where was heaven before that? Where were the angels before the earth was? Are heaven and the angles of late creation too? You are leaving God, angels and satan to the area of man's invention to explain man's presents on earth. Do you think that wise?

 

[Clete]

So you don't like it when you get accused of being emotional about something, but you have no problem falsely accusing others.

I see.

You thought I was angry without cause and I simply explained that I was not. I never accused you of intentionally making false accusations, I merely pointed out that you hadn't done a very good job of reading my emotional state of mind. And I have no problem with emotions or being emotional. People should be passionate about the things they believe in but I do not think that emotionally based arguments are a valid rebuttal to a reasoned position.

You didn't respond to the argument at all Mystery, instead you made an emotionally based sarcastic argument designed to basically blow off my argument and score emotional points for either yourself or whomever might agree with your position. I'm not even sure you even understood my argument at all! You seem to think that I somehow switched the analogy around or something, which I did not do and even if I had it wouldn't have made any difference because the same point would apply either way. Now will you respond to the argument or won't you?

If you don't want to fine! Just say so.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

All these, prior to the cross. God had to go by actions.

And the One who committed that righteous act is the One Who is Righteous. He was Righteous before the act. Right?

If one is righteous, they will commit righteous acts.​

[/INDENT]How am I wrong?

One cannot be righteous or unrighteous apart from action, whether that action is in thought, word, or deed. Yes, Jesus was righteous before He became flesh and died but those were not His first actions. God the Son has always existed in a perpetual relationship with the other two members of the Trinity and has always acted in their best interests as they have in His and each other's.

Try as you might, you will not succeed in separating righteousness from right action without rendering the term 'righteous' meaningless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Mystery]

You thought I was angry without cause

you made an emotionally based sarcastic argument

I'm not even sure you even understood my argument at all! You seem to think that I somehow switched the analogy around or something, which I did not do and even if I had it wouldn't have made any difference because the same point would apply either way. Now will you respond to the argument or won't you?

I understand your argument. It's just not a valid one. You assume that the God is righteous because He acts to do that which is in the best interest of others. I do not view God that way. I do not believe that God can turn on or off His light. I do not believe that God can deny Himself, but just chooses not to. As I said in another post. God is not static. He is not a robot. He interacts with His creation, and makes choices that are consistent with His nature. God can choose to bless you or curse you, but in either case, God is loving you. He does not have the choice not to love you.

 

[chatmaggot]

In a previous thread Ask Mr. Religion says the following concerning PastorKevins avatar:

For the love of God, man, please settle on an avatar.

I guess the only response would be (from a Calvinistic view) is that he can't! It was predestined before the foundation of the world that PK would change his avatar.

Ask Mr. Religion,

Do you believe that?

If so.

Don't you think it's silly?

 

[dale]

...Go all the way to incompatiblism and making God responsible for sin, or become OVTs!

Muz

I'm not a Calvinist, so I certainly don't speak for them.

I believe God is responsible for the existence of sin. He Himself doesn't sin, but He is responsible for the creation of creatures that do.

 

[themuzicman]

I'm not a Calvinist, so I certainly don't speak for them.

I believe God is responsible for the existence of sin. He Himself doesn't sin, but He is responsible for the creation of creatures that do.

Do you consider God to be righteous in that?

Muz

 

[dale]

Do you consider God to be righteous in that?

Muz

Yes I do. Why not? Do you reject the fact that God created creatures that sin?

 

[Mystery]

My wife and I created our kids, but I never intended for them to do wrong, but they do.

 

[themuzicman]

My wife and I created our kids, but I never intended for them to do wrong, but they do.

Ah, but Dale has conceded that God ultimately causes everyone to sin. Do you intentionally cause your kids to sin?

Are you responsible for their sinning?

Muz

 

[Nang]

And yet your view of why the Lake of Fire was originally created is not consistent with the clearly stated words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, when He said:

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

. . .Including all held in bondage to the devil and his angels . . .

God said that everything He had created was good AFTER the 6th day of creation. So it logically infers that sin, Satan's fall, & man's fall had not happened yet.

Correct.

We are not told exactly when Satan fell either, but we know it was sometime after God had created everything.

Correct.

The Scriptures are clear that the Lake of Fire was created originally to punish Satan and his angels when they rebelled against God.

Partially correct.

In your scenario, why would the Scriptures not say that it was prepared for all sinners and all of the unGodly? Why does it specifically say it was prepared/created for the devil and his angels?

I presented no "scenario" to you. I gave you Scripture that says, that besides the devil and his angels, Death and Hades, and "all not written in the Book of Life" will experience this fate. Read again Rev. 20:14&15 These not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are people judged to this fate, as the immediate context demands.

I will tell you why:

Because God never intended to send people to the Lake of Fire. It was not part of His original creation, and for people to sin was not part of God's intention or plan for mankind.

I disagree with you, then. I believe God knew exactly how all things created would result, plus I believe all of history transpired according to God's eternal purposes. For Scripture plainly says:

". . God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Romans 9:22

I agree that we cannot say exactly WHEN the Lake of Fire was created, but it would have been when Satan and his angels fell. This much is clear from the text, that man's fall occurred AFTER the Lake of Fire was created!

I suppose you think God was surprised by Satan's rebellion? And so God had to add to His creation, and make a lake of fire, after He had already created all things in the first 6 days.

That creates just another so-called "gap" theory; all of which versions I reject as unbiblical.

Nang

 

[dale]

My wife and I created our kids, but I never intended for them to do wrong, but they do.

You didn't create your kids, you procreated them after your sinful self. You didn't have a choice but for them to be sinful. God, not being sinful, purposely created creatures knowing that they would bring sin into the world.

 

[Nang]

You didn't create your kids, you procreated them after your sinful self. You didn't have a choice but for them to be sinful. God, not being sinful, purposely created creatures knowing that they would bring sin into the world.

And why do you suppose God would do that?

That is the most important question to ask . . .

 

[dale]

Ah, but Dale has conceded that God ultimately causes everyone to sin. Do you intentionally cause your kids to sin?

Are you responsible for their sinning?

Muz

You're mixing things up. Sin is against God. The question you should be asking is: 'Have you ever caused your kids to do something against what you've already stated is the right way?' I will answer yes. After repeatedly telling my daughter not to do something, I decided to tell her to go ahead and do it her way so she would then know by first hand experience why I had been telling her not to do it that way. Now she understands by experience what I was saying.

 

[dale]

And why do you suppose God would do that?

That is the most important question to ask . . .

I can only touch the tip of the iceberg here, but, If nothing else, so there would be a backdrop of evil that God would stand out in contrast to. That there would be something to compare Him against so as to show His glory. Kinda like needing the night sky in order to see the stars.

That would be a significant study all by itself.

Were you asking because you disagree or agree? If you agree, do you have additional reasons you'd like to share?

 

[Nang]

I can only touch the tip of the iceberg here, but, If nothing else, so there would be a backdrop of evil that God would stand out in contrast to. That there would be something to compare Him against so as to show His glory. Kinda like needing the night sky in order to see the stars.

That would be a significant study all by itself.

Were you asking because you disagree or agree? If you agree, do you have additional reasons you'd like to share?

Hint: Read my sig.

 

[Mystery]

Ah, but Dale has conceded that God ultimately causes everyone to sin.

Yes, I can read too. Dale is wrong.

Do you intentionally cause your kids to sin?

No, they do that because it is their nature to do so.

Are you responsible for their sinning?

No, that would be Adam.

However, I did no full well that when we were going to have kids that they would be sinners, but I was hopeful that they would choose to accept God's gift of righteousness and no longer be sinners.

God knew that Adam could sin, even though He did not cause it when he did. However, God also offered Adam life in the hopes that he would choose it.

When God told Adam about the tree, Adam should have said... "I'd rather you just get rid of it"

 

[Clete]

I understand your argument. It's just not a valid one. You assume that the God is righteous because He acts to do that which is in the best interest of others. I do not view God that way. I do not believe that God can turn on or off His light. I do not believe that God can deny Himself, but just chooses not to. As I said in another post. God is not static. He is not a robot. He interacts with His creation, and makes choices that are consistent with His nature. God can choose to bless you or curse you, but in either case, God is loving you. He does not have the choice not to love you.

If you understood the argument why won't you respond to it?
Simply saying that it is not valid doesn't make it so, Mystery. Why isn't it valid? Answering that question would be a substantive response to the argument. Instead you simply restate your position which I already understand and have forcefully refuted with sound reason and Scripture. I really wish you would simply respond to the argument or admit that you have no response.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Mystery]

If you understood the argument why won't you respond to it?
Simply saying that it is not valid doesn't make it so, Mystery. Why isn't it valid? Answering that question would be a substantive response to the argument. Instead you simply restate your position which I already understand and have forcefully refuted with sound reason and Scripture. I really wish you would simply respond to the argument or admit that you have no response.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't know what you want to hear. You're being extremely vague.

I have also provided biblical evidence that states that God does not - because He cannot.

What is it that you are looking for? I'd love to respond, but you have not told me what it is that you want me to respond to, that I have not already told you.

:help:

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

In a previous thread Ask Mr. Religion says the following concerning PastorKevins avatar:

I guess the only response would be (from a Calvinistic view) is that he can't! It was predestined before the foundation of the world that PK would change his avatar.

Ask Mr. Religion,

Do you believe that?

If so.

Don't you think it's silly?

Oh, please. Open theism would have one believe that only the "important" items are predestined by God, after all He is not a "micro-manager". As if we are able to determine what is important from the Scriptures and what is not. Friend, every jot and tittle in the Scriptures are important. If God created, I am confident that He considers everything that He has created worthy of His providential control, right down to the sub-atomic level. Nothing, read again, n-o-t-h-i-n-g, is outside of God's providential control.

Tell me, was the blind man born blind outside of God's providential control?

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

No. Why then was he so born?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

Did Christ's healing of the blind man glorify God? Indeed.

You know why God perhaps predestined PK's avatar choice? So that it could be subject to the ridicule it deserves and in so doing, motivate the response you are now receiving with its message that God created and controls so that His holy will shall be manifested and glorified.

Nothing, read again, n-o-t-h-i-n-g, is outside of God's providential control. If it were, it would not exist.