ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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dryice

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In Luke 4: 1-13 Jesus is tempted in 3 ways.
We read them as bread, power, and rescue by angels.

Essentially, however, they were temptations to:

Survive independant of God

Worship anything but God

or presume to test God.

Just a thought but could these three temptations be the three roots of all temptations? independence, idolitry, and self importance?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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No, doe doe bird. It means His temptation was genuine, not a fake show to trick us into thinking He was, but was not.

Men are tempted by various things. I am not tempted to do drugs, but my other temptations are real to me. Jesus was tempted like men are (real, not an illusion to trick us into believing a lie), but this does not mean He was tempted exhaustively in every way (neither are we).

Jesus may have found women attractive, but He did not lust. He enjoyed food, but was not a glutton. He was not tempted to murder or be gay. He was tempted by Satan to put Himself first instead of the Father. He was tempted to not die on the cross if He did not have to (take this cup away if possible?). These were genuine temptations fulfilling the meaning of temptation. He was not tempted in the heinous list you gave. You should know better to suggest I might believe this. The impeccability of Christ views do not even imply this regardless whether you think Christ could have sinned and did not OR that He could not have sinned (impossible) and did not. The bottom line is that He is the sinless Savior and did not sin. Temptation is not a sin. Yielding to it is and He never did. On the other hand, we are condemned sinners even if we are not tempted by your list. We still yield in at least one other area and it differs for each person. The greatest sin is to reject Christ in favor of selfish, godless, rebellion.

Temptation being possible does not mean we are tempted in every way possible.

Can you try to be more respectful and reasonable and dialogue in a mature manner without attributing worst case scenarios to me all the time? We serve a common Lord and Master. Our love and unity should take precedent over being right (as long as we do not compromise essential vs peripheral truth...impeccability of Christ is not salvific if we all agree that we are sinners and He is sinless...it is academic, not heaven/hell).
Lots of words here, GR. Do you agree with the following:

Christ possessed not only natural, but also moral, integrity or moral perfection, that is sinlessness.

This means not only that Christ could avoid sinning, and did actually avoid sinning, but also that it was impossible for Christ to sin because of the essential bond between the human and the divine natures. The sinlessness of Christ is clearly testified to it in the Scriptures: Luke 1:35; John 8:46; 14:30; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15; 9:14; I Pet. 2:22; I John 3:5. Christ was made to be sin judicially, but ethically He was free from both hereditary depravity and actual sin. Christ never makes a confession of moral error; nor does Christ join His disciples in praying, "Forgive us our sins." Christ is able to challenge His enemies to convince Him of sin. Scripture even represents Christ as the one in whom the ideal man is realized, Heb. 2:8,9; I Cor. 15:45; II Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21.
 

Nathon Detroit

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AMR, I am not really sure where we left off but I have a lot going on right now so I will get back to our discussion in a few days OK?

Thanks!
 

elected4ever

New member
I affirm the Deity of Christ. e4e is Arian and denies the Deity of Christ. What does that say about your knowledge and discernment? e4e does not know what he is talking about. He denies that Jesus is the Son of God (equal with the Father), yet accuses me of denying His Sonship because of my views on the nature of sin (impeccability of Christ)?!


Shame on you for siding with the non-Christian cultist over a fellow believer.
You are a lier personafied. So I know who your father is and it sure isn't God.:loser:
 

elected4ever

New member
No, doe doe bird. It means His temptation was genuine, not a fake show to trick us into thinking He was, but was not.

Men are tempted by various things. I am not tempted to do drugs, but my other temptations are real to me. Jesus was tempted like men are (real, not an illusion to trick us into believing a lie), but this does not mean He was tempted exhaustively in every way (neither are we).

Jesus may have found women attractive, but He did not lust. He enjoyed food, but was not a glutton. He was not tempted to murder or be gay. He was tempted by Satan to put Himself first instead of the Father. He was tempted to not die on the cross if He did not have to (take this cup away if possible?). These were genuine temptations fulfilling the meaning of temptation. He was not tempted in the heinous list you gave. You should know better to suggest I might believe this. The impeccability of Christ views do not even imply this regardless whether you think Christ could have sinned and did not OR that He could not have sinned (impossible) and did not. The bottom line is that He is the sinless Savior and did not sin. Temptation is not a sin. Yielding to it is and He never did. On the other hand, we are condemned sinners even if we are not tempted by your list. We still yield in at least one other area and it differs for each person. The greatest sin is to reject Christ in favor of selfish, godless, rebellion.

Temptation being possible does not mean we are tempted in every way possible.

Can you try to be more respectful and reasonable and dialogue in a mature manner without attributing worst case scenarios to me all the time? We serve a common Lord and Master. Our love and unity should take precedent over being right (as long as we do not compromise essential vs peripheral truth...impeccability of Christ is not salvific if we all agree that we are sinners and He is sinless...it is academic, not heaven/hell).
Hay stupid, Jesus was tested to prove who He was, not who He was not.. Had not the Father just said, "This is my beloved Son." The temptation of Christ was to prove the validity of the Father's statement. Jesus did not even have the ability to sin so how do you think that He could have sinned?:bang:
 

godrulz

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Lots of words here, GR. Do you agree with the following:

Christ possessed not only natural, but also moral, integrity or moral perfection, that is sinlessness.

This means not only that Christ could avoid sinning, and did actually avoid sinning, but also that it was impossible for Christ to sin because of the essential bond between the human and the divine natures. The sinlessness of Christ is clearly testified to it in the Scriptures: Luke 1:35; John 8:46; 14:30; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15; 9:14; I Pet. 2:22; I John 3:5. Christ was made to be sin judicially, but ethically He was free from both hereditary depravity and actual sin. Christ never makes a confession of moral error; nor does Christ join His disciples in praying, "Forgive us our sins." Christ is able to challenge His enemies to convince Him of sin. Scripture even represents Christ as the one in whom the ideal man is realized, Heb. 2:8,9; I Cor. 15:45; II Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21.

I fully affirm that Jesus is, was, and always will be sinless. He always chose the highest good and glory of God and the good of man (love vs selfishness). He had a will. Sin is not a metaphysical substance, but a wrong moral choice. Jesus never sinned, but 'cannot' is an overstatement. The impeccability of Christ debate is academic with points and problems for each side of the coin. Did not and cannot are not the same thing.

I do not believe that moral depravity is heriditary in any sense. Rather, physical depravity is inherited.
 

Town Heretic

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Who can truly be tempted to do that which is impossible for them to do?

I sense a Chalcedonian definition in the offering here...

Lastly, "Hay stupid…"? Bless your judgmental soul elected4ever, I was beginning to think you didn't have a sense of humor.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Lots of words here, GR. Do you agree with the following:

Christ possessed not only natural, but also moral, integrity or moral perfection, that is sinlessness.

This means not only that Christ could avoid sinning, and did actually avoid sinning, but also that it was impossible for Christ to sin because of the essential bond between the human and the divine natures. The sinlessness of Christ is clearly testified to it in the Scriptures: Luke 1:35; John 8:46; 14:30; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15; 9:14; I Pet. 2:22; I John 3:5. Christ was made to be sin judicially, but ethically He was free from both hereditary depravity and actual sin. Christ never makes a confession of moral error; nor does Christ join His disciples in praying, "Forgive us our sins." Christ is able to challenge His enemies to convince Him of sin. Scripture even represents Christ as the one in whom the ideal man is realized, Heb. 2:8,9; I Cor. 15:45; II Cor. 3:18; Phil. 3:21.

I fully affirm that Jesus is, was, and always will be sinless. He always chose the highest good and glory of God and the good of man (love vs selfishness). He had a will. Sin is not a metaphysical substance, but a wrong moral choice. Jesus never sinned, but 'cannot' is an overstatement. The impeccability of Christ debate is academic with points and problems for each side of the coin. Did not and cannot are not the same thing.

I do not believe that moral depravity is heriditary in any sense. Rather, physical depravity is inherited.
I will take your answer as a "No", then.
 

patman

Active member
Hay stupid, Jesus was tested to prove who He was, not who He was not.. Had not the Father just said, "This is my beloved Son." The temptation of Christ was to prove the validity of the Father's statement. Jesus did not even have the ability to sin so how do you think that He could have sinned?:bang:

If he waz testd to provv somethin, whi wer ther no witnisses? :p
 

elected4ever

New member
Originally said of the pervert godrulz, Sometimes you go beyond brilliant.
A question ask of of e4e, Define sin, E4E.

So you are also one that denies that Jesus is the Son of God? Sin is whatsoever contradicts God. Jesus is the eternal word of God made flesh. The word of God is the law of God. Jesus is the law of God so whosoever contradicts Jesus is a sinner.

For one to be saved one must be as Jesus is. No exceptions. This is a work of God the Father and not the work of man.

The flesh is dead to God and therefore not subject to the Word of God. It is not what you do that consigns you to hell but the death that you exist in.

You must receive life from God in order to be as Jesus is. Salvation is the giving of life from the dead. If you have not been born again you remain a sinner (dead)
 

patman

Active member
I felt compelled to post here again, though I’m not certain why. Am I compelled by my own intellectual need to establish the relevance of this line of inquiry, or do I merely imagine that I am when in fact I’m being manipulated by forces beyond my comprehension or outside of my control?

It seems a fruitless question and one that cannot be conclusively answered, though the later idea would at least go a long way toward explaining reality television.

:chuckle:

Do you satisfy your every impulse? Is every compelling thought greeted with a "yes" for you? Or are there times you deny yourself the impulses and compelling thoughts?

If there are times you deny it, it would mean that you are driving the car your life, and from time to time you see a road sign and think, "hmmm," or, "maybe," as you go along. Whether or not you take the exit doesn't mean the sign controlled you. Why? Because you passed other signs without exiting, and they didn't control you.:car:
 

patman

Active member
Do you not have the witness of the word? If you do not believe the witness of Jesus then believe the work that He did that they were the works of God.:sigh:

Of course I do, but when you are out to prove something, you have witnesses to verify what you did. You don't go do it and then tell everyone you did it.

I don't believe the temptation of Christ was about proving anything to us. Since when did God have anything to prove? He can just tell us and that should be good enough.

It was probably more like Job. Satan tell God "now that you are in the flesh you can sin, un-hedge yourself that I might test you." And he did, and passed the test, of course. Jesus also used that time to grow closer to God.
 

elected4ever

New member
Of course I do, but when you are out to prove something, you have witnesses to verify what you did. You don't go do it and then tell everyone you did it.

I don't believe the temptation of Christ was about proving anything to us. Since when did God have anything to prove? He can just tell us and that should be good enough.

It was probably more like Job. Satan tell God "now that you are in the flesh you can sin, un-hedge yourself that I might test you." And he did, and passed the test, of course. Jesus also used that time to grow closer to God.
So the witness of the word is not true to to you?:sigh:
 

Mystery

New member
No, doe doe bird. It means His temptation was genuine, not a fake show to trick us into thinking He was, but was not.
Genuine? What does that mean? Was He tempted in ALL things as we are, yet without sin. Are you sure you have the slightest idea what you are talking about? I'm about 100% sure you don't.

Men are tempted by various things.
So?

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin".

Jesus was tempted like men are, but this does not mean He was tempted exhaustively in every way
The bible says that you are a liar.

Jesus may have found women attractive, but He did not lust. He enjoyed food, but was not a glutton. He was not tempted to murder or be gay.
You don't know Jesus from Adam (literally, not metaphorically).

He was tempted by Satan to put Himself first instead of the Father. He was tempted to not die on the cross if He did not have to (take this cup away if possible?).

I'll get to this in a minute.

These were genuine temptations fulfilling the meaning of temptation. He was not tempted in the heinous list you gave. You should know better to suggest I might believe this.
I suggested it because it is consistent with your bizzare interpretation of what it means when the bible says that Jesus was tempted in ALL THINGS as we are, yet without sin.

The impeccability of Christ views do not even imply this regardless whether you think Christ could have sinned and did not OR that He could not have sinned (impossible) and did not.
That doesn't make sense. Since Jesus could not sin, He would not sin. If He could sin and did not, then your view of temptation would have to include ALL things that were on my list, which is absurd.

The bottom line is that He is the sinless Savior and did not sin. Temptation is not a sin. Yielding to it is and He never did.
Because He couldn't.

On the other hand, we are condemned sinners even if we are not tempted by your list. We still yield in at least one other area and it differs for each person.
Like you said, that is because we were sinners. And we are still tempted, because we still live in a body that is dead because of sin.

Temptation being possible does not mean we are tempted in every way possible.
The discussion is about Jesus, and how He was tempted, which the bible says He was tempted in ALL things.

Can you try to be more respectful and reasonable and dialogue in a mature manner without attributing worst case scenarios to me all the time?
If you are going to say things that are immature and disrespctful to the gospel, I am going to have to try and communicate with you on your level.

You do know that the word temptation comes from the root meaning to attempt or to test, right?

Satan attempted to test Jesus, but he failed, because Jesus is God in the flesh. The attempts made by Satan proved who Jesus is.

As you stated earlier, you are not tempted to take drugs. Yet, I can attempt to get you to take drugs. I can tempt you to take drugs. This is also what it means to be tempted. You may have never been tempted to take drugs, but at some point in your life, somone may have attempted to get you to take them.

There were attempts from several places to get Jesus to sin, but the temptations were never from within. You tempt yourself to sin...

"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".

Is Jesus God, godrulz? Does Jesus have His own lust?

Jesus was not tempted from within, but there were attempts made to test Him, and He passed the test, because He is God in the flesh.

To say that Jesus could have sinned, is to deny that God is manifest in the flesh. That is the spirit of antiChrist.
 
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