ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Thank you elected4ever for your kind words .

You always have such a sweet disposition.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Let’s look at some history of salvation.

First, I want to look at Abram before he was circumcised and, basically became a Jew (roughly). It says in Gen 15:5,6 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abram was justified just by believing what God told him. That’s a lot like we get justified today. The difference, I think, is we are sealed unto the day of redemption and cannot lose our salvation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I got news for you. Nether could Abram.

 

[Sozo]

Let’s look at some history of salvation.

First, I want to look at Abram before he was circumcised and, basically became a Jew (roughly). It says in Gen 15:5,6 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abram was justified just by believing what God told him. That’s a lot like we get justified today. The difference, I think, is we are sealed unto the day of redemption and cannot lose our salvation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Abraham was never saved while he lived. Abraham was promised salvation.

 

[elected4ever]

Thank you elected4ever for your kind words .

You always have such a sweet disposition.

Bob Hill

Thank you.

 

[elected4ever]

Abraham was never saved. Abraham was promised salvation.

I am going to disagree there too. It is the same Christ that saved Abraham that saved you and me. One was looking forward to the promise and we look back at the fulfilled promise. Same cross, Same savior. Same new birth. John 3:7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 *The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 *Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 *Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The new birth was required even for the Old Testament saints.

 

[Sozo]

The new birth was required even for the Old Testament saints.

How is one born again without the Spirit?

 

[elected4ever]

How is one born again without the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit was just as active then in the hearts of men as He is today. Jesus said so. I have to believe that for that reason. Or did Jesus lie to Nicodemus?

 

[Sozo]

The Holy Spirit was just as active then in the hearts of men as He is today. Jesus said so. I have to believe that for that reason. Or did Jesus lie to Nicodemus?

Jesus told Nicodemus that men must be born again.

Abraham was not born again, until Jesus was glorified.

 

[Bob Hill]

Dear Godrulz,

God’s program for us today is different from all His previous programs and future programs. We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

This was brand new doctrine that was different from everything before. It will end at the rapture of the body of Christ.

Paul repeated this explanation in Col 1:25-27 [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why is that true? It’s true because the Dispensation of the Secret or, Mystery, was hidden from the ages in God until God revealed it to Paul after Paul was saved. That means nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Why do I say that? That’s what a mystery is. And, remember, the dispensation that was revealed to Paul was hidden from all time before it was revealed to him.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Next, I want to look at Abram after his name was changed to Abraham. That was when Abraham became circumcised and was put under the law. God wanted to make His people from the seed of Abraham. That’s why God made an eternal conditional covenant with Abraham.

Here is what God told Abraham under the new dispensation when circumcision was enacted. Gen 17:10,14 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.

This sounds severe. What does cut off mean? When we look at this phrase in other parts of the Bible, it is very clear that it means death.

Ex 31:14,15 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for 6 days, but the 7th is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

This was a faith and works method of salvation. God continued with this kind of program with Israel until He raised up the Apostle Paul and gave Paul the new method of salvation that did not require works for salvation. This new dispensation was called the Dispensation of Grace, by God.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Godrulz,

I agree that Paul baptized for quite a while, even though he did not baptize very many. The ascended Christ had revealed a lot of stuff to him during the 3 years in Arabia, but he was constantly getting more information about the new Dispensation of Grace from Him all the time.

In Christ,
Bob

I still maintain that baptism or works were never necessary for salvation.

I believe the historical situation in Galatia was to do with Judaizers and their false gospel. Even in your view, I would not say Peter's Gospel was false if it was just different from Paul's (heteros= of different vs same kind= allos). Mormons have a false gospel. Jesus, Peter, and Paul did not have false gospels that brought down the curse of 'anathema'. These are strong words for a counterfeit Christ and gospel, not just a different dispensation.

Gal. 2:7 still seems to me to be two target audiences/ministries for the one Gospel since Christ's resurrection and the birth of the Church at Pentecost. Paul was significant, but not as significant as Jesus and the Holy Spirit's birth of the Church. In both our views (I hope), the person and work of Christ was paramount.

 

[Bob Hill]

I’d like to take a look at Israel under the law.

God instituted a complex system of ceremonial purification for sin. I believe it all pointed to the future death of Christ. Num 19:9,20,21 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean. 21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them. He who sprinkles the water of purification shall wash his clothes; and he who touches the water of purification shall be unclean until evening.

In the course of time, God promised the kingdom to Israel. Israel has always been in anticipation of this promised kingdom.

So when we get to the N. T., we see that the kingdom was preached and offered to Israel. Lk 3:3 And John the Baptist went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

They also had to endure in their belief in order to be saved. Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Even the eleven apostles had to endure in their faith, no matter what! John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Their message of salvation was very clear and different from the one the ascended Christ would give to the Apostle Paul.

I do not understand why many of you do not see a different method of salvation in John 15:6 and Acts 2:38, because on the day of Pentecost, Peter made it plain. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Later, when Christ gave the eleven the great commission, water baptism was emphasized for salvation. Mark 16:15,16 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[godrulz]

I will tell you again that there were never two gospels but two administrations of the same gospel. The doctrine of two gospels is a flat out lie. There is no basis to believe any such thing.

I agree with you. I am not as strong on this denouncement, since I am trying to understand their position. I think it is problematic and would not stand scrutiny based on all relevant verses.

 

[godrulz]

Thank you elected4ever for your kind words .

You always have such a sweet disposition.

Bob Hill

Is this sarcasm? I find him curt and abrasive at times practically accusing those who disagree as being an unbeliever.

 

[godrulz]

Abraham was never saved while he lived. Abraham was promised salvation.

Splitting hairs based on a narrow definition of salvation. The OT concept of salvation may not be identical to the fuller understanding in the NT, but this does not mean there are no similarities. Abraham died as a man of faith in right standing with God. He did not go to purgatory waiting to get saved.

 

[Bob Hill]

A new gospel was given to Paul, “Don’t work for it, just believe.”

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 4:4,5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by Christ’s faithfulness and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Tit 3:5,6 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

This was very different from the gospel message Christ had given to Peter and John, and later, James.

 

[godrulz]

Dear Godrulz,

God’s program for us today is different from all His previous programs and future programs. We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

This was brand new doctrine that was different from everything before. It will end at the rapture of the body of Christ.

Paul repeated this explanation in Col 1:25-27 [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why is that true? It’s true because the Dispensation of the Secret or, Mystery, was hidden from the ages in God until God revealed it to Paul after Paul was saved. That means nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Why do I say that? That’s what a mystery is. And, remember, the dispensation that was revealed to Paul was hidden from all time before it was revealed to him.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

The Church Age and New Covenant in Christ is different than Israel and the Old Covenant. This does not mean there were two Christian gospels for a limited time in the Church Age.

 

[godrulz]

A new gospel was given to Paul, “Don’t work for it, just believe.”

Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 4:4,5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by Christ’s faithfulness and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Tit 3:5,6 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

This was very different from the gospel message Christ had given to Peter and John, and later, James.

I think a close reading of Jesus, Peter, OT, etc. shows that salvation has always been based on grace/faith. Obedience and works flow out of saving faith. It does not seem biblical that God would have sinful man save himself through works in one dispensation and then have him saved through faith in another. I think Paul makes a case in Romans that faith has always been the criteria. Now, he was also emphasizing the reality of the person and work of Christ rather than the shadow/type before Christ rose.

 

[Bob Hill]

There is a great contrast in the gospel of grace that God gave to the Apostle Paul and the circumcision gospel that Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews wrote. Here are quotes from these circumcision writers:
Heb 10:38,39 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Jo 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[godrulz]

There is a great contrast in the gospel of grace that God gave to the Apostle Paul and the circumcision gospel that Peter, John and the writer of Hebrews wrote. Here are quotes from these circumcision writers:
Heb 10:38,39 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, my soul has no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
1 Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Jo 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Most commentators/exegetes do not find a contradiction between these statements and Pauline thought.

e.g. I Peter is not teaching baptismal regeneration.

True faith will produce loving obedience (Pauline, Johannine, or Jesus' teaching).

There are also Pauline texts that contradict OSAS (it is possible Paul wrote Hebrews). I do not find support for unconditional eternal security in any dispensation, including Pauline thought.