ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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I didn't say that did I.elected4ever said:
I God were to do something evil (something inconsistent with the current discription of His character), He would still be God, He just wouldn't be good.
In that case we aren't talking about man's morality but rather realy morality which is, as I've said a hundred times now, a discription of God's character.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Mustard Seed
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Clete said:
No one could exercise true faith if God did that. If God looses his consistancy then he falls out of the definition of what a true God is.
Mustard Seed
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elected4ever said:
Sorry. An 'old' graphic designer/typsetter's jargon. Sans essentialy means "without". If you've ever looked at a font that says "Sans Serif" that means it's without the "Serif" the "serif" is the little tail and other like extensions that you have in fonts like Georgia.
elected4ever
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No that seems to be the geest of Clete's remarks.godrulz said:
elected4ever
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Man was amoral before the fall, not afterward.godrulz said:
elected4ever
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God has done things that man said was an evil. That did not change or effect god in any way. Of coarse that is man's morality that makes that judgment. God's morality and man's morality are different. We cannot use the finite to judge the infinite.Clete said:
I would not use the word as a description of god's character. I do at time to try to stay on the same page and communicate. Actually I believe that God is righteous and not moral. The reason for that is that no human or any creation can judge God's character. For man to say that a certain act of god is good or bad is to judge God with limited knowledge.
Man has no concept of righteousness that is adequate to describe God's righteousness other than to say God is righteous. Even when in man's view God's deed appears as a great evil.
elected4ever
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Is falsifying scripture loving God? Is falsely accusing God's anointed loving your brother?godrulz said:
Okay, fine.elected4ever said:
Don't you understand that to say God is good or righteous is a judgment of God? And we are given, by God Himself, permission to judge Him and see if He is righteous or not.
Malachi 3:10 Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,
That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
John 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.
And in the John 5 passage Jesus goes on to give a four fold witness to the Truth which His audience is intended to use to make the judgment that He is the Messiah (God).That there may be food in My house,
And try Me now in this,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“ If I will not open for you the windows of heaven
And pour out for you such blessing
That there will not be room enough to receive it.
John 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.
And that's only two of dozens of such judgments that God commands us to make concerning Him. The whole purpose of prophecy is to give evidence that God is real. What good is evidence without judgment? The fact that you love God requires that you've made judgments about the goodness of God. It's just inescapable.
Further, if God were to do something evil we would be able to detect it. Not that everything that we think is evil actually is because, as you said, our knowledge is less than complete, but if God were to send someone to Hell in spite of their genuine acceptance of Jesus Christ as their savior and we knew about it then we could confidently say that God was a liar and therefore evil and not to be trusted.
Resting in Him,
Clete
elected4ever
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In every place where God's goodness or righteousness is challenged God is not kind to the challenger but when his faithfulness and trustworthiness is challenged then He says do what I say and you will see. If one does not do as instructed then one does not like what they receive. This is not mine change on God's part. God hates as well as loves. He executes vengeance as well as bestow blessing. God will destroy as well as create. God creates good and he devises evil. God all ways acts within his perfect righteous character. No attribute of the reveled righteous nature of God is exercised at the expense of the other.Clete said:
The will of the unsaved is to do the will of Satan. They can do no other.
The will of the Children of God is to do the will of God and they can do no other.
There are limitations on the free will of man. Jesus said," No man comes to me except the Spirit draw him." Did Jesus lie? No man comes to Christ unless the Spirit has first drawn him. Rest assured that when you come to Christ it was not your idea but once the Spirit drew you and revealed Christ to you in truth it was then that you had a choice to make and not before. The drawing was God's idea and not yours. You have only a limited choice. You are not free to do as you wish, before or after salvation.
Yes, they can.elected4ever said:
Luke 15:4-7: [jesus]"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."[/jesus]
Yes, they can. There are many examples of the Isarelites falling into idolatry.
You're all screwed up here. God's Will is that all should come to Him. Each of us makes that choice.
elected4ever
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he is looking for lost sheep not wolves. Jesus said that the Children of Satan do Satan's will John 8:40 *But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.Frank Ernest said:
41 *Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 *Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 *Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 *Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 *And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 *¶Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 *He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
See scripture reference above. Being an Israelite makes no one a child of God
It is my will that I be a billionaire but that doesn't mean I will be one. Jesus saves all who will come to him but that doesn't mean that all will come. men do not come unless they be drawn by the Holy Spirit.John 6:33 *For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 *Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 *And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 *But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 *All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 *For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 *And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 *And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 *The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 *And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 *Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 *No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 10:12 *¶For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 *For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 *How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 *And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 *But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Bob Hill said:
Exactly. His perfect provision (objective) was intended for all, but not all appropriate (subjective) His finished work. TULIP is an inadequate attempt to explain why all are not saved (hyper-sovereignty is half truth i.e. God can be in control without being all-controlling).
Bob Hill said:
We have more in common than we have different. We part ways on Mid-Acts and some of its implications, but we serve a common Lord and Savior, the mighty risen Christ! Let us preach Him and Paul's grace message with no works.
Do you remember when Jesus was asked what workS a man needs to do to be saved (rough paraphrase)? Did He command any rituals or laws? No. He simply said the worK (no plural) of God is to believe in the Father and the One whom He sent (or something like that). I think it is in John (concordance anyone)?
Simple enough. Now, try to convince e4e. :chuckle:Bob Hill said:
You're implying that God's will is as ineffective as yours? :shocked:elected4ever said:
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