ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Elected4ever wrote:
It is my will that I be a billionaire but that doesn't mean I will be one. Jesus saves all who will come to him but that doesn't mean that all will come. men do not come unless they be drawn by the Holy Spirit.John 6:33 *For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 *Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 *And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 *But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 *All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 *For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 *And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 *And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 *The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 *And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 *Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 *No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 10:12 *For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 *For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 *How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 *And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 *But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I think the best answer to elected4ever’s post is, John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

But, in addition to that, Christ said that He gave Himself a ransom for all. God the Father also desires all men to be saved. that’s why He sent His Son to die for us.

1 Tim 2:1-6 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (NKJV)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Actually, God the Son became Jesus Christ so He could give light to everyone. He also died for everyone.
John 1:8-9 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 (Christ) was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (NKJV)

In anticipation of His death on the cross, Christ said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)

According to John, all would be taught by God, and He draws all those who hear and learn from the Father.
John 6:44,45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (NKJV)

If they believe what God tells them, they will be saved. Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (NKJV)

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

I think the best answer to elected4ever’s post is, John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

But, in addition to that, Christ said that He gave Himself a ransom for all. God the Father also desires all men to be saved. that’s why He sent His Son to die for us.

1 Tim 2:1-6 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (NKJV)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Actually, God the Son became Jesus Christ so He could give light to everyone. He also died for everyone.
John 1:8-9 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 (Christ) was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (NKJV)

In anticipation of His death on the cross, Christ said in John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)

According to John, all would be taught by God, and He draws all those who hear and learn from the Father.
John 6:44,45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught by God.” Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. (NKJV)

If they believe what God tells them, they will be saved. Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." (NKJV)

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Every scripture you posted and the truth that i presented are in harmony. Now if you have some idea as to how one scripture is contradictory to the other then I would like to hear it. What did i say that you seem to think that this scripture contradicts?

 

[Delmar]

God wanted everyone to be saved.

Christ said in John 12:32: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

But all were not willing to come to Him.

Gee I wish I'd said that!

 

[elected4ever]

Gee I wish I'd said that!

Where in my post did I ever say that it was not the will of the Father that everyone should be saved? What I said was that only those who are drawn are saved. That is not the same as what you think I was implying. Man has no capacity to come to God on his own. Salvation is from God to man not man to God.

 

[Bob Hill]

That's why it says in John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

This is what the Greek text says, literally.

It also says in John 6:44,45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

 

[elected4ever]

That's why it says in John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.

This is what the Greek text says, literally.

It also says in John 6:44,45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

Then you are not objecting.

 

[godrulz]

Where in my post did I ever say that it was not the will of the Father that everyone should be saved? What I said was that only those who are drawn are saved. That is not the same as what you think I was implying. Man has no capacity to come to God on his own. Salvation is from God to man not man to God.

Are you saying God does not will that everyone be saved? Is His love arbitrary where He draws and saves some, but does not draw and save others that He could save if He wanted to (unconditional election/non-election)?

 

[koban]

Are you saying God does not will that everyone be saved? Is His love arbitrary where He draws and saves some, but does not draw and save others that He could save if He wanted to (unconditional election/non-election)?

That would seem to be the logical conclusion.

 

[elected4ever]

Are you saying God does not will that everyone be saved? Is His love arbitrary where He draws and saves some, but does not draw and save others that He could save if He wanted to (unconditional election/non-election)?

You know very will that is not what I said.
Romans 10:8 *But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 *That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 *For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 *For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 *¶For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 *For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 *How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 *And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 *But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The will of God is that all be saved but not all will call upon Him and all who hear will not believe. That is man choosing against the will of God. God has also assigned us a part. That is why we do mission work.To obey the gospel is to believe the gospel If man does not believe it is not that the sound has not gone forth and that they have not heard.
Romans 10:18 *But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 *But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 *But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

 

[Bob Hill]

I guess the real question is, what must I do to be saved as the jailor at Philippi asked in Act 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

He and his household believed! Act 16:32-34 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Why has the way of salvation become so confusing? I think it is because there are so many different things being said about what a person must do. We’re dealing with the Bible’s most important subject, so, what must our message of salvation be?

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

There are many different beliefs about what we must do to be saved.

One guy I have communicated with on my web site, biblicalanswers.com, wrote: “In fact that is what baptism is: being made partakers of Christ’s death and resurrection. And while the initiation into baptism is our own personal faith in response to God’s offer, the faith that is necessary for baptism is Christ’s own faith, his desire to die to save us.”

He also quoted Gal 3:27 as though it was water baptism: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.”

He wrote, “Baptism as form (water and submersion three times) is an epiphany of the essence of what we are talking about. In fact that is what baptism is: being made partakers of Christ’s death and resurrection.”

But the Bible gave us Paul’s response to the question, “What must I do to be saved?” Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That has to be a real belief, but that is all one has to do.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

There is another guy I have talked to in our Christian bookstore, Bible Discount. He is also the founder of an Arminian religious group. He wrote this: “although the Lord’s provision is abundant for all, it is not applicable to any except on certain conditions.

First, they must accept Christ as their Redeemer.

Second, they must strive to avoid sin and henceforth live in harmony with God.

Third, they must do works of righteousness according to Jam 2:24: You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. But, that’s what we get when we get outside of Paul’s epistles. We get out of the message that the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave to Paul for this present Dispensation of Grace that we are in.

Here is what God inspired Paul to write in Rom 5:8-11 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

We must believe.

 

[Bob Hill]

I’ve met many different people in our book store and on line. The leader of another group wrote: “You must be baptized as an adult, with these words said, ‘I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Baptism by water, blood or desire is necessary to salvation.”

I’ve seen this kind of distortion of God’s word wherever you turn. I don’t think they do this on purpose, but it confuses and misleads those who need salvation. Wrong theology seems to be everywhere, and indeed, it is confusing.

Amazingly, it started as soon as the gospel that God gave to the Apostle Paul was first preached. Let’s look at Paul’s reaction to what was happening in Galatia.

Gal 1:6-9 I’m amazed [my translation] that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another [of the same rank]; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Well, then, what is the right gospel? What did Paul preach?

He answered the question, and though it is redundant, to the question, “What must I do to be saved?” When the Philippian jailor, in Acts 16:30,31 brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

And they did believe.

 

[godrulz]

I guess the real question is, what must I do to be saved as the jailor at Philippi asked in Act 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

He and his household believed! Act 16:32-34 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Why has the way of salvation become so confusing? I think it is because there are so many different things being said about what a person must do. We’re dealing with the Bible’s most important subject, so, what must our message of salvation be?

Bob Hill

I see the same message in John 3 (belief in Christ only, not works). This does not make sense from a Mid-Acts view (unless I am misunderstanding...I am sure they have an answer for this).

 

[godrulz]

There are many different beliefs about what we must do to be saved.

One guy I have communicated with on my web site, biblicalanswers.com, wrote: “In fact that is what baptism is: being made partakers of Christ’s death and resurrection. And while the initiation into baptism is our own personal faith in response to God’s offer, the faith that is necessary for baptism is Christ’s own faith, his desire to die to save us.”

He also quoted Gal 3:27 as though it was water baptism: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.”

He wrote, “Baptism as form (water and submersion three times) is an epiphany of the essence of what we are talking about. In fact that is what baptism is: being made partakers of Christ’s death and resurrection.”

But the Bible gave us Paul’s response to the question, “What must I do to be saved?” Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That has to be a real belief, but that is all one has to do.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

The simplicity of the Gospel is faith in Christ and His finished work alone. The sacramental views of baptism are simply unbiblical (usually Lutheran, Reformed, Catholic vs evangelical).

 

[godrulz]

I’ve met many different people in our book store and on line. The leader of another group wrote: “You must be baptized as an adult, with these words said, ‘I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Baptism by water, blood or desire is necessary to salvation.”

I’ve seen this kind of distortion of God’s word wherever you turn. I don’t think they do this on purpose, but it confuses and misleads those who need salvation. Wrong theology seems to be everywhere, and indeed, it is confusing.

Amazingly, it started as soon as the gospel that God gave to the Apostle Paul was first preached. Let’s look at Paul’s reaction to what was happening in Galatia.

Gal 1:6-9 I’m amazed [my translation] that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another [of the same rank]; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Well, then, what is the right gospel? What did Paul preach?

He answered the question, and though it is redundant, to the question, “What must I do to be saved?” When the Philippian jailor, in Acts 16:30,31 brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

And they did believe.

I find it interesting that you use Acts 16 about belief, yet it has an historical narrative that included baptism post Acts 9. I did not find your explanation persuasive. Paul, at this point, should have not allowed that if things had clearly shifted Mid-Acts.

Regardless of the supposed limited circumcision/uncirc. gospel (Mid-Acts), I think we agree that Paul's understanding of the Gospel is applicable to us in the Church Age (so we are on the same page except for a limited time in church history that does not apply to us anyway.... I suppose you would think many modern Christians still confuse the issue and teach faith + works...I know of no credible Bible-centered evangelical school, church, or believer that does not affirm the great Reformational truths of salvation by grace/faith...finding fringe groups that make water baptism, etc. necessary for salvation is not the majority of mainstream historical, biblical, orthodox Christianity...most credible commentaries refute salvation by law or works from any NT passage...I attempted to give some idea of why NT believer's baptism passages do not teach baptismal regeneration).

 

[Bob Hill]

Shortly after Paul had been through modern day Turkey, Paul heard about trouble in Galatia, which was part of what we call Turkey, today, he wrote them: Gal 1:6-8 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another (of the same kind); but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Here was the problem. Jewish believers who believed under Peter, James, and John’s ministry had gone to Galatia and were telling the Galatians they had to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law in order to be saved. Acts 15:1,2 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

Paul refers to this in his epistle to the Galatians. Gal 2:1-9 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man - for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcision.

People who say they are Christians these days, often are saying the same things that Paul rebuked. The gospel of the circumcision that Christ gave to Peter and John was different from the gospel of the uncircumcision that Christ gave to Paul.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

I agree that Paul baptized for quite a while, even though he did not baptize very many. The ascended Christ had revealed a lot of stuff to him during the 3 years in Arabia, but he was constantly getting more information about the new Dispensation of Grace from Him all the time.

In Christ,
Bob

 

[elected4ever]

Godrulz,

I agree that Paul baptized for quite a while, even though he did not baptize very many. The ascended Christ had revealed a lot of stuff to him during the 3 years in Arabia, but he was constantly getting more information about the new Dispensation of Grace from Him all the time.

In Christ,
Bob

I will tell you again that there were never two gospels but two administrations of the same gospel. The doctrine of two gospels is a flat out lie. There is no basis to believe any such thing.

 

[Bob Hill]

Let’s look at some history of salvation.

First, I want to look at Abram before he was circumcised and, basically became a Jew (roughly). It says in Gen 15:5,6 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abram was justified just by believing what God told him. That’s a lot like we get justified today. The difference, I think, is we are sealed unto the day of redemption and cannot lose our salvation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill