ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

Next Peter explained away the possible confusion that the water baptism would be for the removal of the outward filth of the body as in Mark 7:3-5. This outward ritual of 1 Peter 3 was essential to perform the inner cleansing of sin in accordance with the principles God set down for the covenant people in Numbers 19.

From the time of Israel’s fall in Acts 7, the book of Acts related how Israel was shown more and more that they had been set aside by God. The baptisms imposed on Israel, being fleshly ordinances (Heb 9:10-13), would be set aside until God would resume dealing with Israel in the tribulation. This is why the Corinthian church spoke in tongues so much. The church “bordered on,” was “contiguous to,” the Jewish synagogue.

The Gentiles’ speaking in tongues was God’s judgment upon unbelieving Jews next door (Please read 1 Co 14:22 in light of Isa 28). Under the circumcision gospel, Peter said “water baptism saves us.” We understand that it would be God’s grace, Christ’s faithfulness, and their faith and obedience to the requirements of the circumcision gospel, including water baptism – all these were necessary to save them. We can see Peter’s consistency with the program given him by the Lord. Water baptism was essential for their salvation.

To show that they all viewed this as water, he quickly explained that it was not the fact that some of the dirt of the body was washed off. No, their experience of belief and water baptism would result in an inward good conscience toward God. This same comment could apply to the water of purification in Numbers 19:9.

When thinking about water baptism, we must always keep Hebrews 9:9,10 in mind. It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience - 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings [baptisms], and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

While reading these circumcision epistles, we must remember the whole promise of the new covenant as it was being progressively implemented. The water baptism of Ezekiel 36:25, “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.” is directly associated with the new covenant in the following verses, 26 and 27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

We must always bear in mind, we are on new covenant ground when we are reading the circumcision epistles.

1 Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles. This is further evidence of the circumcision flavor of this epistle. It’s not strong evidence, because Paul addressed some Gentiles similarly (Rom 2:4; Gal 5:1; 1 Co 10:20; 2 Co 11:26; Eph 4:17 in the Greek).

Bob Hill

 

[Philetus]

Right here is what I was responding to: "Here are countless Verses where Elihu tells Job that he is crazy and God both didn't and wouldn't do this..." but that was Patman saying this, so I think I got my wires crossed. Do you in fact agree that God does bring affliction even on innocent people at times?

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. Generally I find myself responding to four or five people at one time, so it's easier if I address the points in one post, for some of the replies overlap. Also, some forums (e.g. Theology Web) don't allow back-to-back posts.

THIS IS THEOLOGY ON LINE! The greatest, most 'open' forum anywhere! The best there is!
When in Rome, Lee ..... POST TWICE ..... or go back to Babylon.


Now, I didn't respond to your question above (before or here) because you have shown over and over and over again you can not distinquish between 'at times' and 'if God did it once ... He did it every time." I just won't waste time on your endless loop anymore.

That is why I insisted you recognize and retract (again you can't or won't) your misquote. You came so close, Lee. So close.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Pastor Hill,

I just printed out your above posts. I'll have to spend some time on them. Thanks. Maybe you should just post once and give us a week to think about it. :chuckle: (just kidding)

Philetus

 

[Bob Hill]

This chain of statements I have just made, is from my book The Big Difference. Since my book has a lot of Greek in it, I am filtering most of that out since it is very hard to read English attempts at showing the underlying Greek.
1 Peter 4:4-6 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

These are circumcision believers who were persecuted, judged by men, and killed in regards to the fleshy body, but live according to God in regards to the spirit, because they were believers when they died. Verse 19 continues the context of suffering.

1 Peter 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

We in America have not had to suffer for our faith. But the time may be coming when we will. Whether we will suffer or not, we should concentrate on loving God with all our might. Anything else will end in failure. I know, I’ve tried every other way to live the Christian life. Don’t be stupid like I was. I struggled for so many years with little benefit. Concentrate on knowing and loving the one person who will produce the Christian life in you. God is the only one who knows your heart. When you are constantly in tune with Him, it’s amazing how you’ll change. You won’t do those besetting sins that no one knows about except you – and God. Why don’t you make a commitment to love Him as much as you can.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Philetus,

I'm glad you downloaded that material. Do you have any suggestions what chapter I should post next. It is a lot of work, and I do change some of my statements.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Bob Hill

You won’t do those besetting sins that no one knows about except you – and God. Why don’t you make a commitment to love Him as much as you can.

Where does it say that Christians sin---------at all? Why do you continue to disbelieve God and hang on to the sin that Christ has taken away?

 

[Philetus]

In the news paper .... every day maybe?

Oops.

 

[lee_merrill]

THIS IS THEOLOGY ON LINE! The greatest, most 'open' forum anywhere! The best there is!

I agree it's open, in the sense of being predominantly Open Theists here! I hope for openness of mind too, and also for good insight, and also integrity. Not being heaped with insults also would be nice, I appreciate the respite here for a while (for the most part), and hope it continues.

Now, I didn't respond to your question above (before or here) because you have shown over and over and over again you can not distinquish between 'at times' and 'if God did it once ... He did it every time."

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Certainly God doesn't act for the same reason every time he sends affliction.

That is why I insisted you recognize and retract (again you can't or won't) your misquote.

Did I not say I used the wrong name?

But I agree that this discussion has been unproductive, and shows no signs (alas) of improvement. People here deny the plainest Scripture, and make up a meaning saying "it's a figure of speech," which is unconscionable where Scripture says "the trouble the Lord brought on him."

God does bring affliction on people who sin, this is arguably the plainest fact in Scripture. God does also bring affliction on people to refine them, this also is plain and undeniable.

Isaiah 38:15-16 But what can I say? He has spoken to me, and he himself has done this. I will walk humbly all my years because of this anguish of my soul. Lord, by such things men live; and my spirit finds life in them too.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Bob Hill]

If we don't sin, why does it say this in Rom 6:12-15 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

I know that I still sin occasionally, but much less than I did when I was younger.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

It says that Christians sin in 1 Cor 8:12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

 

[godrulz]

Bob HillWhere does it say that Christians sin---------at all? Why do you continue to disbelieve God and hang on to the sin that Christ has taken away?

Christians do not need to sin.

Sinless perfectionism philosophies are heretical. There is a difference between will not and cannot.

 

[Bob Hill]

I think it is possible to get to the place when I will not sin, and here is the only reason that I think so.

Phi 3:8-16 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, somehow, I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as would be mature, let us mind this; and if in anything you are minding differently, even this (what Paul just wrote), God will reveal to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

From this passage, we can see that Paul was striving to live the perfect Christian life (vss. 11,12,14). He says he hasn’t apprehended it yet (vs. 13).

Sometime later, we’re not exactly sure how long, we find him writing in 2 Tim 4:6-8: For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

I am struggling in that same battle for, “the out-resurrection from the dead.” It is very difficult because I have some inner attitudes that are not totally holy yet. However, I have seen a marvelous change in the last number of years. For instance, with God’s working in me, I have a commitment to Him to not get irritated with my wife in any way. It has been a blessing to see how God can work with me in this area.

Of course, it surely took me a long time to even want to be perfect in this life, and I’m going to be 74 in February.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

But Christians do sin. I have a congregation who admits that they do.

Bob Hill

 

[patman]

lee

lee

I feel it is useless to address and discuss your other points in great detail because you will never see my points without considering context, and without truly understanding the stories of the Bible.

Lee, the fact that God made Job repent about what he said should tell you that Job spoke sin. Anything Job had to say you should take with a grain of salt.

Elihu was the only speaker in Job God found no fault with. And It would be good for you to realize Elihu was rebuking Job for his sinful talk. If you can't see that, you need to re-read the book. You probably need to re-read everything.

 

[patman]

Philetus

Philetus

Philetus

That Avatar is cracking me up

 

[elected4ever]

But Christians do sin. I have a congregation who admits that they do.

Bob Hill

It does not matter what your congregation thinks or what you and i think. God the Father says we don't. It is the testimony of Apostle John and of the Apostle Paul that says we don't. If we believe what the scripture says about us then we cannot be sinners and therefore do not sin and do not even have the capacity to sin

 

[elected4ever]

I think it is possible to get to the place when I will not sin, and here is the only reason that I think so.

Phi 3:8-16 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through the faithfulness of Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, somehow, I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as would be mature, let us mind this; and if in anything you are minding differently, even this (what Paul just wrote), God will reveal to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

From this passage, we can see that Paul was striving to live the perfect Christian life (vss. 11,12,14). He says he hasn’t apprehended it yet (vs. 13).

Sometime later, we’re not exactly sure how long, we find him writing in 2 Tim 4:6-8: For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

I am struggling in that same battle for, “the out-resurrection from the dead.” It is very difficult because I have some inner attitudes that are not totally holy yet. However, I have seen a marvelous change in the last number of years. For instance, with God’s working in me, I have a commitment to Him to not get irritated with my wife in any way. It has been a blessing to see how God can work with me in this area.

Of course, it surely took me a long time to even want to be perfect in this life, and I’m going to be 74 in February.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I certainly know where you are coming from. I even come to the point that I wonted God to take my life because of the embarrassment that I thought I was causing God because of my actions. I demanded perfection of myself. I found it impossible to be righteous in the flesh, just as you do but we are not of the flesh but of the Spirit. Our identity is in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Our flesh is dead to God and is not even subject to the law of God. There is no sin where there is no law. Sin has been condemned in the flesh and we no longer walk according to there flesh. When our body dies our flesh nature dies with it. Oh death, where is your sting and Oh death, where is your victory. My body is dead because of sin but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Our struggle is to present our life to a world that only knows death. it is not to be so consumed in or death that the death of this world cannot see the light. Do not hide the life under the basket of death.

 

[Clete]

Clete
Nothing could be further from the truth. I am telling you that the rationality of man is not the rationality of God. If what I think you are saying here is that the rationality of man is irrational in light of God's truth, then I can accept that. but you seem to make no distinction between the two.

I have offered clear definitions of what I consider to be REAL rationality. Things cannot be both true and not true E4e! Either a spiritual truth claim is true or it is not, wouldn't you agree with that? And any truth, whether it be a spiritual truth or any other sort of truth, cannot be in contradiction to any other truth.

To deny the rationality of man as a force in man's thought is irrational on its face. Man has no idea who God is. How do you explain man's reasoning outside of the rationality of God? You might say that man would be irrational and unreasonable, but would you still say that if you did not know God? You cannot expect man to reason with the rationality of God. Perhaps the verbiage we use means something different to each of us.

Don't you see that regardless of whether or not I would still say that if I did not know God has nothing to do with whether or not the saying of is rational?
Whether something is rational is not a matter of someone's opinion! That's of people think its a matter of opinion but that would be an example of what I would call "human reasoning" and I think that is the sort of thinking that the Bible calls "man's logic" or "the wisdom of man". The point being is that it isn't really logic or wisdom at all! True logic has nothing to do with opinions. It has simply to do with rules of discourse; rules, by the way, which emanate from the very character of God Himself. The laws of logic describe God!

1. The law of identity states that if any statement is true, then it is true; or, every proposition implies itself: A implies A. - John 14:6
2. The law of excluded middle states that everything must either be or not be; or, everything is A or not-A. - John 8:58
3. The law of contradiction states that no statement can be both true and false; or, A and not-A is a contradiction and always false: thus, not both A and not-A. - I Timothy 6:20, Mark 14:56, 1 Corinthians 15:14-16, John 5:31-47

I say it again, and please try to understand what I am saying here, there is but ONE true and valid logic! The "logic of man" as you like to call it, is not really logical at all. Men might think it is but they are in the dark and are unable to understand because they have rejected the Light, the very Logos (Logic) of God, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, whom we both love and worship! But it isn't just the unbeliever who has this problem of darkness because we are all trapped in this body of death, which we call 'the flesh' but God has given us the Light, which is Himself, so that we need not grope around as though blind but that we can stand boldly in the faith, grounded and rooted firmly in the Truth! Without logic we can know nothing just as John 1 explicitly states. Look especially at verse 4...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos or Logic), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

It is the duty of every man who calls himself a Christian to always maintain the Light of God in view! This is how we can know whether our theology is true or whether we are in error. Logic is the only tool we have! How eminently fitting that Jesus is Himself the very personification of Logic (John 1:14)! Could there be anything more perfectly eloquent?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I certainly know where you are coming from. I even come to the point that I wonted God to take my life because of the embarrassment that I thought I was causing God because of my actions. I demanded perfection of myself. I found it impossible to be righteous in the flesh, just as you do but we are not of the flesh but of the Spirit. Our identity is in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

This is true, however, it does not contradict what Pastor Hill is saying. You've simply changed the definition of the word 'sin'. One might could argue about which definition is more Biblical but there can be no debate over which is more commonly understood. Saying things like "we do not sin" is more confusing than it is worth. The only time saying such a thing is valid is when you take the time to make the distinctions you've made about what it means to "sin". In my view, it makes more sense to avoid that needless battle and present the Christian message in the vernacular needed to convey the message clearly to the audience at hand, all of whom are going to think the word "sin" means to do something that you shouldn't.

Resting in Him,
Clete