ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Hilston]

With respect to Hilston, his criticism to the O.V. is easily returned with criticism to the S.V. by saying it makes God out to be the Author of sin..... and he isn't.

It's not a criticism. It's a feature. God is the author of sin. Nothing happens apart from God's plans. He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons. The scriptures affirm that this fact is a source of comfort and assurance. The OT (Opposable Thumb) God can offer neither. According to the Unsettled Deist, most things happen for no good reason or purpose. Why do you trust this God you've conceived?

 

[godrulz]

It's not a criticism. It's a feature. God is the author of sin. Nothing happens apart from God's plans. He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons. The scriptures affirm that this fact is a source of comfort and assurance. The OT (Opposable Thumb) God can offer neither. According to the Unsettled Deist, most things happen for no good reason or purpose. Why do you trust this God you've conceived?

We need a straw man smilie.

 

[patman]

Rob,

I simply cannot understand you. You show you do not know the story of Joseph:

"Over four hundred years and through thousands(or even millions) free will choices..."

Joseph was Jacob's son. Jacob was Isaac' son. Isaac was 66 when Jacob was born. Isaac was Abraham's son. This is not a 400 year prophecy. They were enslaved relatively soon after God told Abraham about it.

They lived in Egypt 430ish years from Joseph to Moses.

Exodus 12:41
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Joseph and the entire group that lived in Egypt died before they were enslaved:

Exodus 1
1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob: 2 Reuben, Simemon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All those who were descendants[a] of Jacob were seventy persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already). 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.”


We are talking 3 or four generations later. Jacob, Joseph, and his sons all had to die before you can even star to count the years of their enslavement. What's a fair number, Rob? 3 Generations, pushing it, making it as short as possible... 100 years?

430-100 = 330 years of actual enslavement?

And what was the prophecy again?

Genesis 15
Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years..."

Clearly... Rob. The Jews were not slaves a total of 400 years. Yeah, they were THERE 430.. However, "they will afflict them four hundred years," was not accurate.

Didn't God know the years? Didn't he foresee it exactly? No. He took a stab at it. As time went on, 400 years was feeling like too much, God heard their cries and jumped ahead to free them before the appointed time:

Exodus 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them.

Slaves only 300 years.. maybe less?

Why doesn't this compel you to reevaluate the S.V.?

 

[patman]

It's not a criticism. It's a feature. God is the author of sin. Nothing happens apart from God's plans. He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons. The scriptures affirm that this fact is a source of comfort and assurance. The OT (Opposable Thumb) God can offer neither. According to the Unsettled Deist, most things happen for no good reason or purpose. Why do you trust this God you've conceived?

I am not one to turn tables on questions to often, but I must ask "Why do you trust this God you've conceived?"

You say "God is the author of sin." Why did he do this? "for His good purposes and reasons."

Evil that good may come of it? Trust a God that caused it? You want me to bow down and worship the true Satan? You want me to follow the moral code of a god who caused me to be immoral?

Is this supposed to be better than "things happen[ing] for no good reason or purpose?" Lets get out the scales....

One hand... Evil god. Other hand... spilling hot coffee has no purpose.

Which do I want? hmmm...

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

You say: God created everything perfect, caused it all to fall apart, only to put it back together, is a good thing? Why not just leave it be and let it always be perfect?

And why would he be sorry he messed it up?

Gen 6
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

BTW...Could you answer without changing the words of scripture? I like them how they are, I don't need the NHV.

It saddens me that you credit God with our sin. Very deeply. And if Rob reads this, it saddens me he supports your view.

When God confronts you in heaven, and asks you why you said this against him, I will try to be there because I want to hear what you say to Him.

 

[Hilston]

I am not one to turn tables on questions to often, but I must ask "Why do you trust this God you've conceived?"

Because He even the evil things that happen around me and to me are for good purposes that He has decreed. The Unsettled Deist has no such confidence. He cannot rationally trust a God who would allow evil to happen to him without any good purpose behind it.

You say "God is the author of sin." Why did he do this? "for His good purposes and reasons."

Correct.

Evil that good may come of it?

God plans evil for good. He does not sin in order for grace to abound.

... Trust a God that caused it?

Joseph trusted God, knowing that the evil that his brothers intended was planned by God for good.

... You want me to bow down and worship the true Satan?

Do whatever you want. It doesn't matter to me.

... You want me to follow the moral code of a god who caused me to be immoral?

Of course. The standard of righteousness that God commands (His prescriptive will) is normally contrary to the evil that He decrees (His decretive will). See the link in my signature for more details.

Is this supposed to be better than "things happen[ing] for no good reason or purpose?" Lets get out the scales....

One hand... Evil god. Other hand... spilling hot coffee has no purpose.

It's non sequitur, patman. Planning evil does not make God evil.

Which do I want? hmmm...

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

The word "author" is not in the text, patman. It was added by the translators. And Paul is talking about order in the church. The word "confusion" is actually "chaos," and refers to the opposite of an orderly assembly.

You say: God created everything perfect, caused it all to fall apart, only to put it back together, is a good thing? Why not just leave it be and let it always be perfect?

Because He obviously didn't want to. He wanted Adam to fall and for the Redeemer to save a portion of humanity for His good pleasure and purposes. Of course, the Opposable Thumb Theist is going to have difficulty with that because it humbles man and exalts God, the opposite of what the Unsettled View aims to accomplish. UD humanism presumptuously sits in judgment of God, just as Lucifer and Adam did.

And why would he be sorry he messed it up?

Gen 6
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

God has emotions. He can feel and express those emotions even while having predetermined exactly what is going to happen. Recall Jesus at Lazarus' tomb. He wanted Lazarus to die before going to him because He knew He would raise Lazarus from the dead. Yet He still wept.

BTW...Could you answer without changing the words of scripture? I like them how they are, I don't need the NHV.

I haven't changed the words of scripture. I corrected the bad translation.

It saddens me that you credit God with our sin.

I don't. That's your false assumption.

When God confronts you in heaven, and asks you why you said this against him, I will try to be there because I want to hear what you say to Him.

You have a strange view of heaven. I suppose that should come as no surprise given your strange view of God.

 

[Hilston]

Satan and man are responsible for sin and evil, not a righteous God.

That is a true statement. Too bad Opposable Thumb Deists don't understand what it means. God planned sin and evil for His good purposes, but that does not make Him responsible for it.

And do you realize how utterly insignificant those reputation points are to someone who is as widely hated in this forum as I am? Negative rep me all you want. I wear it as badge of honor to get negative points from you people.

 

[badp]

God planned sin and evil for His good purposes, but that does not make Him responsible for it.

Not true. God didn't plan sin or evil at all.

And your avatar makes you look like a devil. Might think about shaving, dude!

 

[godrulz]

That is a true statement. Too bad Opposable Thumb Deists don't understand what it means. God planned sin and evil for His good purposes, but that does not make Him responsible for it.

And do you realize how utterly insignificant those reputation points are to someone who is as widely hated in this forum as I am? Negative rep me all you want. I wear it as badge of honor to get negative points from you people.

You slander God and His Word. The points are for bad theology, not because we hate you, brother.

 

[RobE]

Rob,

I simply cannot understand you. You show you do not know the story of Joseph:

"Over four hundred years and through thousands(or even millions) free will choices..."

Joseph was Jacob's son. Jacob was Isaac' son. Isaac was 66 when Jacob was born. Isaac was Abraham's son. This is not a 400 year prophecy. They were enslaved relatively soon after God told Abraham about it.

They lived in Egypt 430ish years from Joseph to Moses.

Exodus 12:41
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Joseph and the entire group that lived in Egypt died before they were enslaved:

Exodus 1
1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob: 2 Reuben, Simemon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All those who were descendants[a] of Jacob were seventy persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already). 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.”


We are talking 3 or four generations later. Jacob, Joseph, and his sons all had to die before you can even star to count the years of their enslavement. What's a fair number, Rob? 3 Generations, pushing it, making it as short as possible... 100 years?

430-100 = 330 years of actual enslavement?

And what was the prophecy again?

Genesis 15
Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years..."

Clearly... Rob. The Jews were not slaves a total of 400 years. Yeah, they were THERE 430.. However, "they will afflict them four hundred years," was not accurate.

Didn't God know the years? Didn't he foresee it exactly? No. He took a stab at it. As time went on, 400 years was feeling like too much, God heard their cries and jumped ahead to free them before the appointed time:

Exodus 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them.

Slaves only 300 years.. maybe less?

Why doesn't this compel you to reevaluate the S.V.?

This reminds me of your 'Jesus wasn't in the grave 3 days' comment. Quit counting beans. The point is that God had to know the outcome despite free will agent's choices which you claim is impossible. Answer the question and quit nit-picking, please.

Patman: Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them?​

How? You've failed to present 'other ways' except for God manipulating man for His own ends which goes against your core belief about how God works. Getting Joseph enslaved was one way you said God could have manipulated history. How many other 'evils' did God author in your opinion? How did He know what outcome they would produce?

Rob

 

[RobE]

Not true. God didn't plan sin or evil at all.

And your avatar makes you look like a devil. Might think about shaving, dude!

That's like saying God didn't plan creation or plant trees in gardens. Knowing of sin/evil and performing sin/evil are different as you know. Who's responsible?

Rob

 

[zapp]

patman you make a lot of valid points which folks don't really appreciate

Excuse the tangental sojourn but there is a whole big can of worms that pat alludes to which we don't discuss in polite christian circles: unfulfilled prophecy. Our enemies CERTAINLY discuss it, but christians just .... ahhhh....ummmmm......don't really want to go there. We will crucify anyone in modern times who claims to have a prophetic word that is not fulfilled "to a T", but would we stone Ezekiel? How about Zechariah? heck how about Peter? and many others. The way we sidestep this "goat's head on the coffee table" is through that most useful tool... Allegory! Allegorization is sheer magic because there are no rules: your allegory is as good as mine. Origen's .... a brilliant heretic-turned-saint .... could spin Allegorization like a machine, but as brilliant as he was, there is no "standard" by which to measure, therefore an Allegory I might spin to explain away why Ezekiel's prophecies, in part, were a bust, is just as good and baseless as is Origens. Presto!

Unless of course "stuff happens" that derails God's plans, which is what I really think. The whole subject of a limited God is taboo and even as I type the words I can feel love emanating from this group..... better change the locks on the doors and hunker down.
God's will is thwarted by people, demons, Satan, but only in part. All the enemies have very limited, narrow abilities that are a nit compared to the Almighty, but still pesky.... like ticks lurking in a beautiful meadow. In fact, there is a small but energetic wing of evangelicism that are vehemently anti-Zionist [mainly anti-christian-zionism] and one of the tools they use is to unhook God from his prophecies concerning the Jew is a combination of absorption and creative allegorization. Absorption: Jesus absorbed every promise and every prophecy so that when they rejected him they effectively throughout baby bathwater sink plumbing and all. So nothing is left. Then they allegorize what is obviously left, like the few key passages in the New Testament that seem to imply that there are yet a pathyway or two for even the unsaved Jews, left open. I note in passing that apparently the curse upon the jews was exempted from the Great Absorption.

Forgive the diversion..... we now return to your Regularly Scheduled Programming!
z

Rob, at any given time, there are hundreds of people who would gladly betray Jesus if not kill them himself. All God has to do is give one the opportunity i.e. be close enough to Christ, and they will most likely do it.

It so happened to be Judas. If Judas didn't do it, one of the Pharisees would have. If they wouldn't do it, one of the leading Romans would. There are many outcomes that could fulfill scripture.

But even if it didn't happen the exact way Prophecy said it would, so what? God has allowed prophecies to change before, has he not? Yes he has. And you know that, yet still you think he knows the future?



Not in relationship to the O.Ver's I know and the theology I believe. God has to be super intelligent to predict what he does, and to know when to change his mind for those he "didn't predict."

With respect to Hilston, his criticism to the O.V. is easily returned with criticism to the S.V. by saying it makes God out to be the Author of sin..... and he isn't.



Rob, there is too much involved. You think I can fully explain, or even comprehend God's ability to predict outcomes? I can just tell the basics. God knows people's hearts. In general. It is like a statisticians predicting marketing trends and being right, God knows how people are and how they react.

Joseph - God didn't make a lot of prophecies about him.. he needed a way to get them to Egypt, Joseph ended up being the solution. God worked with his knowledge of the present to get the outcome he desired.

Judas - God, again, had plenty of people matching Judas' resume available at anytime in any civilization in history. Did God make him do it? Did he have to do it? Was he destined by prophecy to do it as you and your unwittingly-knowing, anti-freewill message claims? No. Would someone else have one it? Very likely.. like 99.999999 percent.

Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them? So what other evidence do you have?

 

[Hilston]

Not true. God didn't plan sin or evil at all.

Weren't the false charges, false witnesses, false conviction, humiliation, ridicule, maiming, torture, and execution of Jesus sinful and evil? And didn't God plan all that? According to Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and elsewhere, God planned every detail. And every detail that He planned was for good. Yet you and the Open Deists say "God didn't plan sin or evil at all"? You're all delusional.

And your avatar makes you look like a devil. Might think about shaving, dude!

Yours makes you look like a self-righteous pharisee.

2Opinions 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into a widely hated bearded man. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his servants go around with beards as well. If the devil were intelligent, he would shave so he could fool the self-righteous pharisees who must have found a verse somewhere that says the devil has a beard.​

By the way, you're very astute, badp. My avatar is the devil. I snapped this picture of him the last time I ate at Taco Bell. I hear he likes Americanized Mexican fast-food.

 

[godrulz]

That's like saying God didn't plan creation or plant trees in gardens. Knowing of sin/evil and performing sin/evil are different as you know. Who's responsible?

Rob

Knowing the possibility/probability of evil is different than knowing it as certain/actual before it comes into existence. God originally said things were 'very good' (Gen. 1; 2). It was only AFTER the Fall that He changed His mind and was grieved and regretted making us to the point of wiping most of man out.

Man, not God, is responsible for the Fall. God gave freedom, so the Fall may or may not have happened as it did (before vs retrospect).

God foreknew the resurrection since He was going to bring it about by His ABILITY (not foreknowledge). No human choice could stop the resurrection. This does not mean that God foreknew every incidental detail surrounding the resurrection (like whether a fly would be here or there or atom x would be in position y or z).

 

[RobE]

Knowing the possibility/probability of evil is different than knowing it as certain/actual before it comes into existence. God originally said things were 'very good' (Gen. 1; 2). It was only AFTER the Fall that He changed His mind and was grieved and regretted making us to the point of wiping most of man out.

Man, not God, is responsible for the Fall. God gave freedom, so the Fall may or may not have happened as it did (before vs retrospect).

God foreknew the resurrection since He was going to bring it about by His ABILITY (not foreknowledge). No human choice could stop the resurrection. This does not mean that God foreknew every incidental detail surrounding the resurrection (like whether a fly would be here or there or atom x would be in position y or z).

It is your precise position that God allowed evil for love. Do you stand by this? If God allowed free will then He would certainly be more ignorant than man if evil and sin weren't foreknown as THE outcome. God created man, the garden, the law not to eat, and placed the devil in the garden. Come on!

Your position is God said, "Oops! Maybe I should have put man, the garden, the tree, or the devil somewhere else; and not made the law not to eat!". Hogwash. God is a bumbler in your estimates and doing the best that He can with what limited ability He has. You know as a Christian that this isn't the loving Lord God Almighty. Give it up!

Rob

 

[Hilston]

God foreknew the resurrection since He was going to bring it about by His ABILITY (not foreknowledge). No human choice could stop the resurrection.

Why doesn't this apply to other prophecies as well? Isn't God able to bring about the fulfillment of all His prophecies "by His ABILITY"? Couldn't it also be that "no human choice could stop the fulfillment of Ezekiel 29"? Does God have such a low opinion of His own words that He only cares about the fulfillment of some of His prophecies but not all?

This does not mean that God foreknew every incidental detail surrounding the resurrection (like whether a fly would be here or there or atom x would be in position y or z).

Your God is too small. My God decreed the existence and behavior of every fly present at the resurrection. My God not only knows the position of every atom at the resurrection, but decreed in advance the position of every atom in the universe at any given moment in time. Not only that, but He actively holds every atom in the universe together. The humanistic reasoning of a mind poisoned by the OV (Openness Virus) refuses to grasp this. It makes God too "God-like." A more "human-like" God, one created in their own image, is the preferred object of worship to the Unsettled Deist.

 

[patman]

This reminds me of your 'Jesus wasn't in the grave 3 days' comment. Quit counting beans. The point is that God had to know the outcome despite free will agent's choices which you claim is impossible. Answer the question and quit nit-picking, please.

Patman: Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them?​

How? You've failed to present 'other ways' except for God manipulating man for His own ends which goes against your core belief about how God works. Getting Joseph enslaved was one way you said God could have manipulated history. How many other 'evils' did God author in your opinion? How did He know what outcome they would produce?

Rob

Rob. I am beginning to want to hit something.

I present to you solid evidence that proves the prophecy didn't even happen how it was proclaimed..... and you complain because i did it before without even realizing the problem this presents to you.

You keep asking what if it didn't go right.... guess what. IT DIDN'T GO RIGHT.

 

[RobE]

Rob. I am beginning to want to hit something.

I present to you solid evidence that proves the prophecy didn't even happen how it was proclaimed..... and you complain because i did it before without even realizing the problem this presents to you.

You keep asking what if it didn't go right.... guess what. IT DIDN'T GO RIGHT.

How do you know?

Rob

 

[patman]

I don't have a lot f time to fully read your post, Hilston. But i saw you accuse me of a false assumption....

He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons.

Sorry.... I cant assume something you plainly said.

Sure, in heaven yo will be forgiven and happy. But when God judges your works and tests your "house" with fire, you will have nothing left for your reward. When you ask God, "why,"he will rebuke you for slandering his Good name.

He will point out how other people warned you of this, and yet you still did it.

 

[godrulz]

It is your precise position that God allowed evil for love. Do you stand by this? If God allowed free will then He would certainly be more ignorant than man if evil and sin weren't foreknown as THE outcome. God created man, the garden, the law not to eat, and placed the devil in the garden. Come on!

Your position is God said, "Oops! Maybe I should have put man, the garden, the tree, or the devil somewhere else; and not made the law not to eat!". Hogwash. God is a bumbler in your estimates and doing the best that He can with what limited ability He has. You know as a Christian that this isn't the loving Lord God Almighty. Give it up!

Rob

God created paradise with reasonable requirements and His immediate presence with Adam and Eve. It was NOT necessary that they Fall under these circumstances. He also created Lucifer with even more closeness to God and heaven. It was not God's intentions nor plan that Lucifer would misuse his will. God knew the possibility and outcome potentials, but it still grieved God since there was no good excuse for Lucifer to become Satan. It was a calculated risk to create free moral agents, not a foregone conclusion or certainty that we would mess up so badly.

 

[patman]

How do you know?

Rob

They lived in Egypt 430ish years from Joseph to Moses.

Exodus 12:41
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years—on that very same day—it came to pass that all the armies of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

Joseph and the entire group that lived in Egypt died before they were enslaved:

Exodus 1
1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel who came to Egypt; each man and his household came with Jacob: 2 Reuben, Simemon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 All those who were descendants[a] of Jacob were seventy persons (for Joseph was in Egypt already). 6 And Joseph died, all his brothers, and all that generation. 7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them.
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.”


We are talking 3 or four generations later. Jacob, Joseph, and his sons all had to die before you can even star to count the years of their enslavement. What's a fair number, Rob? 3 Generations, pushing it, making it as short as possible... 100 years?

430-100 = 330 years of actual enslavement?

And what was the prophecy again?

Genesis 15
Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years..."

Clearly... Rob. The Jews were not slaves a total of 400 years. Yeah, they were THERE 430.. However, "they will afflict them four hundred years," was not accurate.