ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Bob Hill]

elected4ever,

Be careful :doh: when you make your statements about what God says through His angels.

But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” 12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13 Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Was that God's angel or not?

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

If it wasn't God's angel, whose was it, and why would you say it wasn't?

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Let's face it. It was God's angel doing what God wanted him to do.

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

The Angel of the Lord is usually the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[Bob Hill]

Yes, but not always.

Bob

 

[elected4ever]

Yes, but not always.

Bob

An Angel of God is God's messenger. They are independent creations and they are creations of God and not God. They are like us in that they do not know everything and I would be carefull calling one God.

 

[godrulz]

An Angel of God is God's messenger. They are independent creations and they are creations of God and not God. They are like us in that they do not know everything and I would be carefull calling one God.

You are correct about angels of God who are created messengers/servants. However, most scholars recognize that THE ANGEL of the LORD is Deity, one of the members of the triune Godhead. If you look at all of the contexts about this unique person, it becomes evident that it is a theophany, a manifestation of God in the OT. Just as Jesus is God and a man, so the Angel of the Lord is God with a form (pre-incarnate Christ). It is important to remember He is an angel in the sense of messenger, but not as a created being like normal angels. It is a title for a theophany (appearance of God in a form...in Revelation, the Father is on the throne with Son beside Him), so context determines whether simple created angel, or pre-incarnate Christ, the captain and Creator of the angels.

http://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

(I just googled this for further confirmation)

 

[Bob Hill]

godruiz,

I'm with you.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Since all of the angels saw the repercussions of Satan’s sin as well as (At least it seems this way.) that of the angels who fell with him, it seems that no more angels have fallen since then.

In answer to whether the fallen angels are on earth or in hell, there is a two-fold answer. Many of Satan’s angels, the ones that fell with him, seem to be Satan’s messengers. The ones who were involved in the evil seduction with the daughters of men before Noah, which led to the destruction of the world by flood, seem to be kept in Tartarus until the judgment.

2 Peter 2:4-6 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [He cast these angels into tartarus (The Greek is a verbal adjective, a participle, tartarosas.) which seems to be gloomy dungeons. At the judgment they will be cast into the lake of fire.] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly
The first example is that of fallen angels. This refers either to their fall with Satan in his rebellion against God (Ezek. 28:15) or to the sin of angels in Genesis 6:1-4. Since Peter’s other two illustrations in this section are from Genesis (chaps. 7; 19), perhaps this one is too, though it is difficult to be sure. If God in His justice punished angels, surely He would not hesitate to punish people. He plunged the angels into hell, literally, “tartarus” apparently a prison of custody (gloomy dungeons) between the time of the judgment and their ultimate consignment to the eternal lake of fire. There will be no future trial for their doom is already sealed. False prophets, Peter argued, will taste the same judgment as the rebellious angels.

Bob Hill

 

[elected4ever]

Can you show me where angels permitted men to worship them?

 

[godrulz]

Can you show me where angels permitted men to worship them?

In Revelation, they forbid John from worshipping them. In Hebrews, God commands God's angels to worship Jesus (1:6).

If the Angel of the Lord receives worship, this is further evidence that He is God, the pre-incarnate Christ, a theophany. It is a title that is not to be confused with created angels.

 

[elected4ever]

In Revelation, they forbid John from worshipping them. In Hebrews, God commands God's angels to worship Jesus (1:6).

If the Angel of the Lord receives worship, this is further evidence that He is God, the pre-incarnate Christ, a theophany. It is a title that is not to be confused with created angels.

In other words the answer is no. There is no place where Angels are worshiped as God.

 

[godrulz]

In other words the answer is no. There is no place where Angels are worshiped as God.

Demons were angels and they are worshipped as idols.

The Angel of the Lord is not a created angel. He is a theophany (God) and is worshipped.

 

[RobE]

Much of God's foreknowledge is based on exhaustive past and present knowledge or on His ability to bring things to pass. It is proximal vs remote in many cases (God can see weather patterns and is a master at meteorolgy as the Creator of the earth; He can also directly intervene in nature to make anything happen or He can let Satan or man do their thing to influence outcomes).

God did plan and have reasons for creation. Many of these are broad and general and involve His moral will. There is significant freedom within His moral will. His sovereign will does not meticulously dictate every detail in His creation. His individual will for us can be undermined by our rebellion.

God knows some vs all of the future. He knows the Second Coming will take place, as prophesied, because He will make it happen and no one can stop it. This does not mean He knew that I would type this exact response trillions of years ago. I am bringing new creative things into existence through my free will98g98ehj9jhb osfgfihbmronbjm

Not knowing this (not knowable) in advance does not affect His sovereign rule nor His omniscience which merely moves from possible/probable when contingent things are actualized in the present.

I think we are talking about four hundred years of knowing the actions of free will agents here which should make you hesitate for just a moment before denying God's knowledge is uncertain, even though the event itself is.

rob

 

[godrulz]

I think we are talking about four hundred years of knowing the actions of free will agents here which should make you hesitate for just a moment before denying God's knowledge is uncertain, even though the event itself is.

rob

There is a difference between knowing one fact in advance that could be brought about and knowing every future choice of every creature exhaustively from eternity past.

 

[RobE]

Am I to brush off God's amazing abilities to plan and foresee and orchestrate the things he plans to do? I stand amazed at his powers and refuse to play them down for you or anyone. Especially for the sake of this silly debate... it has become silly.

--sigh--

Did God orchestrate the betrayal of Christ?

Impossible or not:

God can foretell future events without absolute foreknowledge?

If you could just admit it is possible...

Certainly it is possible from my point of view; but not from yours. Open Theism REQUIRES God to be unable to foretell future events with certainty unless He brings those events about personally(especially actions of free will agents).

Judas Iscariot hangs this idea out to dry. In the case of Joseph did God make Joseph's brothers sell him to the slavers, did God force the man's wife to pursue Joseph, did God put Pharoah's servent into prison, etc., etc....?

The story of Joseph and the intervening time period, combined with the countless thousands of 'possible' outcomes, from the millions of free will acts; makes your position unstable and quite honestly - undefendable.

According to your position the Egyptians could have adopted the God of the Hebrews, killed the Jews, not allowed Jacob into the land, not enslaved them, etc., etc., etc......

The millions of possible outcomes which would have resulted over a 400 year period is mind boggling to say the least. I wouldn't even begin to guess what astronomical number the probability of the situation would produce against the 1 outcome that was the reality; and God foretold of it exactly over 500 years prior to the event.

:cheers:
Rob

 

[RobE]

There is a difference between knowing one fact in advance that could be brought about and knowing every future choice of every creature exhaustively from eternity past.

Are you presenting as fact that God caused Judas to fall?

Rob

 

[zapp]

Demons were angels and they are worshipped as idols.

The Angel of the Lord is not a created angel. He is a theophany (God) and is worshipped.

Provide a scripture that says that Demons are angels of any type.

Provide scripture that says that the Angel of YHWH is YHWH.

z

 

[godrulz]

Are you presenting as fact that God caused Judas to fall?

Rob

I just watched Jesus Christ Superstar again. They are too Calvinistic on this point making God responsible for damning Judas as a pawn in His plan.

Judas was chosen after prayer to be entrusted with the inner circle/ministry of Jesus. He did not have to betray Christ. He became a betrayer. If he would have remained true or repented, somone else would have 'fulfilled' the prophecy. The verses about the betrayal are inspired in retrospect by the Holy Spirit as illustrative (the original context in the OT was about an OT historical fulfillment). They are not simple foreknowledge, predictive prophecy about Judas the man.

God did NOT cause Judas to fall. He used what was in his heart eventually to bring things to pass. Even if no one betrayed Christ in that manner, there was enough mob mentality and circumstance to bring about the death of Christ. A specific betrayal is incidental to the Lamb of God dying for us. God influences only as much as necessary. In this case, not much influence was needed (cf. Pharaoh who hardened his own heart before God further judiciously hardened it).