ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Why doesn't this apply to other prophecies as well? Isn't God able to bring about the fulfillment of all His prophecies "by His ABILITY"? Couldn't it also be that "no human choice could stop the fulfillment of Ezekiel 29"? Does God have such a low opinion of His own words that He only cares about the fulfillment of some of His prophecies but not all?

Your God is too small. My God decreed the existence and behavior of every fly present at the resurrection. My God not only knows the position of every atom at the resurrection, but decreed in advance the position of every atom in the universe at any given moment in time. Not only that, but He actively holds every atom in the universe together. The humanistic reasoning of a mind poisoned by the OV (Openness Virus) refuses to grasp this. It makes God too "God-like." A more "human-like" God, one created in their own image, is the preferred object of worship to the Unsettled Deist.

Some prophecies are unconditional (Revelation judgments), while others are conditional (Jonah). Is. 46; 48 shows that God can declare specific judgments and bring them to pass. He can chose mercy or wrath depending on our response to warnings. This cannot be proof texted or extrapolated to mean that He controls every fly in the universe (he gave them self-locomotion and does not decree or cause the rape of babies!).

As you know, Hezekiah is an example of God changing His mind in response to prayer (the future was unsettled and open in this case). God said He was a dead duck. God does not lie. God then changes His mind and adds 15 years to his life. God is so sovereign that He is not locked into a fatalistic universe.

There is no need for God to decree or control every human choice, especially one's contrary to His character. Open Theism also agrees that God holds the universe together down to the molecular level. This does not mean that God built the computer I type on nor does it mean He is causing me to type these words. Self-determination is a gift He gave us.

God is not omnicausal. He is omnicompetent, a greater God than your limited God who must be a cosmic control freak to keep things in order. My God can bring His purposes to pass AND give us significant freedom, even to the point of undermining His will at times (hence hell). As I told Colossians, talk to the hand until you admit He is omnicompetent, not omnicausal. There is a difference between cause and effect inanimate creation, instinct and animate creation, and contingent, moral choices by moral creation (you blur this distinction and reduce us to cause-effect, impersonal automatons).

You think people hate you here. I said we do not. We hate views that malign God and His ways. However, given your pigheadedness, I do not like you (we do serve the same God, so cut the straw man caricature...we are also brothers in the Lord, so grow up).

 

[patman]

patman you make a lot of valid points which folks don't really appreciate

Excuse the tangental sojourn but there is a whole big can of worms that pat alludes to which we don't discuss in polite christian circles: unfulfilled prophecy. Our enemies CERTAINLY discuss it, but christians just .... ahhhh....ummmmm......don't really want to go there. We will crucify anyone in modern times who claims to have a prophetic word that is not fulfilled "to a T", but would we stone Ezekiel? How about Zechariah? heck how about Peter? and many others.

Thank you, z.

Ya know, I don't know all the answers. But before knowing the O.V. I struggled with this. I wanted to be honest with myself and my faith. There were problems my former S.V. couldn't answer that the O.V. does. And best of all it does it without changing Good's word or ignoring entire chapters.

 

[patman]

This reminds me of your 'Jesus wasn't in the grave 3 days' comment. Quit counting beans. The point is that God had to know the outcome despite free will agent's choices which you claim is impossible. Answer the question and quit nit-picking, please.

Patman: Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them?​

How? You've failed to present 'other ways' except for God manipulating man for His own ends which goes against your core belief about how God works. Getting Joseph enslaved was one way you said God could have manipulated history. How many other 'evils' did God author in your opinion? How did He know what outcome they would produce?

Rob

Rob. I am beginning to want to hit something.

I present to you solid evidence that proves the prophecy didn't even happen how it was proclaimed..... and you complain because i did it before without even realizing the problem this presents to you.

You keep asking what if it didn't goo right.... guess what. IT DIDN'T GO RIGHT.

 

[godrulz]

Rob. I am beginning to want to hit something.

I present to you solid evidence that proves the prophecy didn't even happen how it was proclaimed..... and you complain because i did it before without even realizing the problem this presents to you.

You keep asking what if it didn't goo right.... guess what. IT DIDN'T GO RIGHT.

When you get to the point of wanting to hit someONE, I'll fly down and meet you. Common sense is not working, so maybe a gentle swat will knock some sense into him. We could do a UFC fight with the winner's view being declared the right view?

 

[Hilston]

I don't have a lot f time to fully read your post, Hilston.

That's too bad. It was a good one.

But i saw you accuse me of a false assumption....

And rightly so.

Originally Posted by Hilston: He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons.

Sorry.... I cant assume something you plainly said.

You called this "crediting" God for our sin. That's a false assumption. It's a false conclusion. You Open Theists have your collective noggins so far up your own proverbial backsides that you can't connect dots to save your life. This is the kind of stuff that goes straight into my Open Theism standup routine.

Sure, in heaven yo will be forgiven and happy. But when God judges your works and tests your "house" with fire, you will have nothing left for your reward. When you ask God, "why,"he will rebuke you for slandering his Good name.

In my Bible, it says that God has "magnified Thy word above all Thy name" (Ps 138:2). You Open Deists are so hellbent to denigrate God's word and to find errors in it that it actually makes you want to hit something when someone speaks out against your attacks.

I am beginning to want to hit something.

See what I mean? "God was wrong! God was wrong! God was wrong! Praise the Lord!" When people disagree with your libel, you want to hit something?

You keep asking what if it didn't go right.... guess what. IT DIDN'T GO RIGHT.

There you have it folks. In patman's own words. God screwed up. It didn't go right. How is it that God pulled off the conviction, torture and execution of His Son without a hitch, down to the minutest detail, fulfilling every prophecy and typology of Moses, including the precise timing and fulfillment of the feast days and Sabbaths, etc. etc. Yet, when it comes to other prophecies, God doesn't get it right. Why do you trust this God?

He will point out how other people warned you of this, and yet you still did it.

I'm not the one going around proudly declaring God a false prophet. I'm not the one going around saying God screwed up and didn't get it right. I'm not the one saying that God uses trial and error to figure out what to do. Your slander should make you feel ashamed. You don't even know to be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Hilston]

Some prophecies are unconditional (Revelation judgments), while others are conditional (Jonah).

How can you tell the difference?

As you know, Hezekiah is an example of God changing His mind in response to prayer (the future was unsettled and open in this case). God said He was a dead duck. God does not lie. God then changes His mind and adds 15 years to his life. God is so sovereign that He is not locked into a fatalistic universe.

This paragraph demonstrates the abject ignorance of Open Deists when it comes to understanding the opposing view. They don't know what sovereignty means. They don't know the difference between fatalism and determinism. And once again, they happily seize upon a passage of scripture that, according to their false assumptions, makes God less than God. If any other explanation were offered, they would work hard to debunk it, lest they be deprived of one of their favorite prooftexts for a God who is less than God.

There is no need for God to decree or control every human choice, especially one's contrary to His character.

More ignorance. If anything is left to chance, then there is no security, no assurance, no confidence. You Unsettled Deists don't know enough to be afraid of your own theology, ignoring its implications, all based on a humanistic and existentialist conception of God.

... Open Theism also agrees that God holds the universe together down to the molecular level. This does not mean that God built the computer I type on nor does it mean He is causing me to type these words. Self-determination is a gift He gave us.

You sound just like Lucifer in the garden. Self-determination was the lie of Lucifer and the sin of Adam. Two words that aptly describe the Open View are "Luciferian" (existentialism) and "Adamic" (humanism).

Here's an example of OV humanism:

God is not omnicausal. He is omnicompetent, a greater God than your limited God who must be a cosmic control freak to keep things in order.

See what I mean? Because God Drools knows that it is a negative and undesirable human trait to want to control everything, he wrongly and humanistically applies the same standard to God, falsely assuming that God's necessary meticulous control is somehow the same as being a control freak. Enyartian philosophy says that God doesn't maintain reams and reams of useless information, such as things related to excrement and what-not (see Enyart's debate with Brian Schwertley for his explanation of this). But again, that is humanism. Just because the human mind cannot conceive of knowing everything (as if God has a choice about what He knows), then it cannot be that God knows everything. So say the worshippers of the Sand God.

... (you blur this distinction and reduce us to cause-effect, impersonal automatons).

In typical Unsettled Deist fashion, you betray your willful ignorance of the view you oppose. Do you realize how pigheaded it makes you look?

You think people hate you here. I said we do not.

Actions speak louder than words, GR.

We hate views that malign God and His ways. However, given your pigheadedness, I do not like you (we do serve the same God, so cut the straw man caricature...we are also brothers in the Lord, so grow up).

What makes us brothers in the Lord?

 

[patman]

When you get to the point of wanting to hit someONE, I'll fly down and meet you. Common sense is not working, so maybe a gentle swat will knock some sense into him. We could do a UFC fight with the winner's view being declared the right view?

Unfortunately the someTHING ends up being my head against my Mac's keyboard.

A wise man once told me I think too logically. "Patrick, you think logically. That will get you nowhere."

Seems he is right. It is like playing chess with a kid and getting 10 checkmates, and they do a checkers "flying king" move to get out of it. You tell them they can't do that. You ask them to yield victory. But they don't.

So what do we do. continue to play by the rules and gain another checkmate, and another and another...

Maybe I should fake a heart attack so I can win and finally get my dentures back.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewMovie?id=81758687&s=143441

It seems to be the only way to get anywhere

 

[patman]

That's too bad. It was a good one.

I am about to go out of town for a day. keep getting pushed back. i will read it when get more time.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1190495&postcount=3341

God is the author of sin. Nothing happens apart from God's plans. He planned for sin to happen. He plans evil for His good purposes and reasons.

But I must say, there are no assumptions on my part. I read your original post. and I again point out the injustice you do towards God. But what do I care? You are not insulting ME, it is God you owe the explanation too.

 

[godrulz]

Hiltson:

A conditional prophecy is an 'if...then' construct. An unconditional prophecy is "I will..."

Even you Calvinists or settled view experts recognize conditional prophecy. You just have to do mental gymnastics to fit your view.

 

[Hilston]

Some prophecies are unconditional (Revelation judgments), while others are conditional (Jonah) ... A conditional prophecy is an 'if...then' construct. An unconditional prophecy is "I will..."[emphases added]

I must've missed it. Where's the protasis in Jonah? And why is there an "if-then" construct in Rev. 3:20? Will the ten kings of Rev. 17:12,13 have a choice as to whether or not they should give their power and strength to the Beast? And is it conditionally or inexorably true that God will put it in their hearts to do evil (Rev 17:17)?

Wasn't the execution of Christ a conditional on your view?

What makes us brothers, GR?

 

[godrulz]

I must've missed it. Where's the protasis in Jonah? And why is there an "if-then" construct in Rev. 3:20? Will the ten kings of Rev. 17:12,13 have a choice as to whether or not they should give their power and strength to the Beast? And is it conditionally or inexorably true that God will put it in their hearts to do evil (Rev 17:17)?

Wasn't the execution of Christ a conditional on your view?

What makes us brothers, GR?

We are brothers because we both love and worship the one true God, the triune God, revealed in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty. It is faith in Him that makes us children of God (Jn. 1:12; 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13), not theological perfection or adopting determinism over free will/relational theism. One can be a Calvinist, Arminian, or Open Theist and be saved (Whitefield, Wesley, McCabe/Boyd, etc.).

 

[Hilston]

We are brothers because we both love and worship the one true God, the triune God, revealed in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, God Almighty.

We do? How do you know this?

It is faith in Him that makes us children of God (Jn. 1:12; 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13), ...

Many people place their faith in what they believe is God, only to find that they've put their faith in a false conception of Him. "Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not defended Calvinism/Open Theism in thy name? and in thy name have rebuked false teachers? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'" How do you know I'm not one of these guys, GR?

Some prophecies are unconditional (Revelation judgments), while others are conditional (Jonah) ... A conditional prophecy is an 'if...then' construct. An unconditional prophecy is "I will..."[emphases added]

I must've missed it. Where's the protasis in Jonah? And why is there an "if-then" construct in Rev. 3:20? Will the ten kings of Rev. 17:12,13 have a choice as to whether or not they should give their power and strength to the Beast? And is it conditionally or inexorably true that God will put it in their hearts to do evil (Rev 17:17)?

Wasn't the execution of Christ a conditional on your view?

 

[RobE]

How do you know?

Rob

I guess I need to explain fully. How do you know that the future didn't turn out as it was intended?

Rob

 

[RobE]

When you get to the point of wanting to hit someONE, I'll fly down and meet you. Common sense is not working, so maybe a gentle swat will knock some sense into him. We could do a UFC fight with the winner's view being declared the right view?

:box:

That's certainly one way for me to get you to listen! :rotfl:


Rob

 

[patman]

You called this "crediting" God for our sin. That's a false assumption. It's a false conclusion. You Open Theists have your collective noggins so far up your own proverbial backsides that you can't connect dots to save your life. This is the kind of stuff that goes straight into my Open Theism standup routine.


See what I mean? "God was wrong! God was wrong! God was wrong! Praise the Lord!" When people disagree with your libel, you want to hit something?

There you have it folks. In patman's own words. God screwed up. ... Why do you trust this God?

I'm not the one going around proudly declaring God a false prophet...You don't even know to be ashamed of yourself.

Hilston. You gotta take some happy pills, dude.

Back off me. You don't know me, and when I express my anger, don't pretend to understand.

I am getting frustrated with Rob because after repeating myself for a year he never has addressed my one desire, my one question.

He completely misreads me, he looks over my points, he repeats half of what I say to make this a "debate" instead of a conversation.

Hilston, half the world disagrees with me in more ways than one. Do you really think. "When people disagree with your libel, you want to hit something?" I mean, you gotta think before you go off, man.

Why would be so quick to put that on me? After hundreds of posts, one i get frustrated and there you go ringing your bell. Something is wrong with you, when it is more important to drag someone's name down than understand what they are saying first.

Especially when it is another christian.

In fact, it amazed me that you don't care that if I worship Satan or not. Where has your compassion for the fallen gone?

Beat them over the head cause it's fun, and sometimes funny.... is that your approach to evangelism?

I have something to say about open theism, problems I see with the S.V. and instead of saying, "let me help you understand," you go and proclaim shame on my understanding of God's word and offer no explanation as to why my observation is wrong?

See what I mean? "God was wrong! God was wrong! God was wrong! Praise the Lord!"

Do you really think this is my attitude? At least Rob can show respect and tries to communicate without the prejudice and hate you go with. He cares what happens to me and tries to contribute what he believes to help me.

Unlike you who only go for blood.

Calling godrulz by the name you did...... I am amazed.

If you have an explanation as to why God would proclaim the future incorrectly that is not "he didn't know the future," present it. I will listen to you question your thoughts, try to explain why I agree or disagree, and all with a good tone and without insulting you.

I expect the same of you if you wish to discuss this farther.

 

[patman]

:box:

That's certainly one way for me to get you to listen! :rotfl:


Rob

Rob, I don't want to hurt ya, just strangle you a little with the keyboard I have been banging over my head.

I guess I need to explain fully. How do you know that the future didn't turn out as it was intended?

Because God told us what he was going to do. If it didn't happen that way, I know God can handle it, but in the mean time it shows God didn't foresee that event.

 

[Hilston]

Hilston. You gotta take some happy pills, dude.

You misunderstand. I've never been happier. When I rip on you people and your theology, it's a service I'm happy to render.

Back off me. You don't know me, and when I express my anger, don't pretend to understand.

I don't pretend to understand. You want God to be wrong, and then get upset when someone disagrees with your attempt to show that God was wrong. That's enough rope to hang yourself with, and I've simply flicked the light on.

Hilston, half the world disagrees with me in more ways than one. Do you really think. "When people disagree with your libel, you want to hit something?" I mean, you gotta think before you go off, man.

If you read my statement in context, you'd realize that I'm talking about this specific issue, not what half the world believes.

Why would be so quick to put that on me?

You fit the pattern, patman. Again, I simply turned the lightswitch to "on."

... After hundreds of posts, one i get frustrated and there you go ringing your bell.

It's my bell. I'll ring it whenever I want (all according to God's decree, of course).

... Something is wrong with you, when it is more important to drag someone's name down than understand what they are saying first.

True. There are lots of things wrong with me.

Especially when it is another christian.

I'm not a Christian. That term belonged to Messianic Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day. There is no such thing today.

In fact, it amazed me that you don't care that if I worship Satan or not. Where has your compassion for the fallen gone?

I don't know you, so I don't care about you. I only care about people I know. To say I care about people I don't even know is to cheapen and belittle the true care I have for those I know and truly care for.

Beat them over the head cause it's fun, and sometimes funny.... is that your approach to evangelism?

Sometimes it's appropriate to beat people over the head. Where Open Deists are concerned, it's always appropriate to beat them over the head.

I have something to say about open theism, problems I see with the S.V. and instead of saying, "let me help you understand," ...

Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. And it's faded beyond recognition.

... you go and proclaim shame on my understanding of God's word and offer no explanation as to why my observation is wrong?

The shame doesn't lie in your understanding of God's Word but in your eagerness to denigrate God Himself by using His own Word against Him.

Hilston wrote (and mocked) previously: See what I mean? "God was wrong! God was wrong! God was wrong! Praise the Lord!"

Do you really think this is my attitude?

No, it is the logical conclusion of your attitude, whether you admit it or not.

... At least Rob can show respect and tries to communicate without the prejudice and hate you go with.

Rob is obviously a better man than I am. I can't respect a view that trashes God and exalts man. As to my prejudice, it's a biblical prejudice. As to the alleged "hate" you mentioned, don't flatter yourself. Again, I don't know you. So for me to say I hate you when I don't even know you is to cheapen and belittle the true hatred I have for those I know and truly hate.

He cares what happens to me and tries to contribute what he believes to help me.

He obviously knows you enough to care about you. That's terrific. I, on the other hand, don't know you enough to care about you or to hate you.

Unlike you who only go for blood.

I'm a hemogoblin. I'm all about the blood.

Calling godrulz by the name you did...... I am amazed.

Which name? "God Drools"? That's the kind of God he (and apparently you) believe in. A God who doesn't know Shinola from a hole in the ground. He sits there in a puddle of His own slobber, not knowing what's going to happen, surprised at every turn by the Free Will Thugs He designed (poorly).

If you have an explanation as to why God would proclaim the future incorrectly that is not "he didn't know the future," present it.

I don't believe God is so rashly impulsive and asinine that He would proclaim the future incorrecty. That's an Open Theist problem; not mine.

I will listen to you question your thoughts, try to explain why I agree or disagree, and all with a good tone and without insulting you.

Where would the fun be in that?

I expect the same of you if you wish to discuss this farther.

Don't put such expectations on me. You'll be disappointed every time.

 

[Hilston]

You are a blasphemous fool!

Sticks and stones, Clete. Get a life. Why don't you go "rest" in that delusional God of yours Who has no grounds upon which to offer any rest whatsoever.

... It good to see you've finally come out of your sheep costume.

My tune hasn't changed, Einstein. This is how Open Deism has poisoned your mind, Clete. Your statement suggests I've revealed something heretofore disguised or kept secret. But I haven't. It appears you actually think I've said something more revealing, something that shows my true colors. But I haven't. The Open View cataract is so obstructive to clear vision that you can't even compute that I've said nothing new, nothing different, nothing any more revealing than I've been saying all along.

It's not the first time I've seen this with you and other OV-addled toadies. The Openness cancer is a malignant disease that causes a serious mental disorder that precludes lucid thinking and simple recall. You don't even know where you learned Calvinism (!!!). You've got it bad and it appears to be terminal. I've offered you the cure, but it's a pill you refuse to swallow (all according to God's decrees, of course).

Thanks for the negative reputation points and for the drivel. Coming from the likes of you and your Enyartian co-sycophants, it encourages me and affirms that I'm on the right track.

Resting in a truly trustworthy Savior,
Jim

 

[patman]

You misunderstand. I've never been happier. When I rip on you people and your theology, it's a service I'm happy to render.

.....

Don't put such expectations on me. You'll be disappointed every time.

Ahhhh. God planned for you do it i guess....

 

[Hilston]

Ahhhh. God makes you do it i guess....

In classic Open Theist fashion, patman just. Doesn't. Get it (all according to God's decree, of course). No Calvinist or Settled Viewer worth his salt believes that God makes them do anything. But as long as Unsettled Deists continue to learn pseudo-Calvinism via the Bob Hill School of Enyartian theological inbreeding, this distortion will persist and propagate, with no regard for what Calvinism actually teaches (all according to God's decrees, of course). It's typical. Pathetic. And sadly, it's exactly what I've come to expect from the self-delusional worshippers of the Opposable-Thumb Sand God.

According to God's decrees,
Jim