ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
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Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Where do some people get their idea that God is outside of time? When we read the Bible, we see that unless God determines future events, God doesn’t know the future. Unless He acts on things or people to make things happen, God doesn’t know the future. But, because God is going to make some things happen, in those cases, what He predicts will happen.
Isa 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
It’s not that “Time is a creation of God, therefore it does not control Him.” that matters. God has always existed and always will. Time is onerous to us because we have to sleep, work, punch a clock-all kinds of things that time frustrates. I’m 73. Time and its consequences of aging are a bummer, but God doesn’t get old.
My biggest hang-up was that I was taught, and thought at one time that God was outside of time. I no longer believe that because I don’t see the biblical proof. If any of these things could be proved from Scripture, I would be happy to change. I believed things from Greek philosophy at one time, but the Bible doesn’t corroborate what I once believed.
There are many Scripture passages that say that God changes His mind, answers prayer or repents. Many Christians don’t sympathize with Calvinism at all but believe that a solution to the problem of God’s repentance in about thirty passages in the Bible. They are the nacham passages, when God repents.
Paul Tillich and many others have borrowed from Greek philosophy: “The eternal now, that God is not in time.” I have been studying this topic for 50 years and have not found one place that says God is outside of time or even alludes to that idea. Instead, the Bible shows God working with us in time.
I’m a biblicist. Show me from God’s word that God is outside of time. When a Christian philosopher maintained that God was outside of time, the only thing he could tell me was his reference to “Paul Tillich’s phrase, “The eternal now, that God is not in time.” But, that’s not in the Bible.
Again, I have heard this from many sources, but there is no Scripture which states this. What they sometimes refer to are the following passages: 2 Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began. Walvoord & Zuck wrote at 1 Co 2:7, “The message which Paul proclaimed was God’s secret wisdom, known only by God’s revelation (Matt. 11:25). At the heart of this wisdom is the plan of salvation intended for our glory, determined before time began (Eph. 1:4).” The Bible Knowledge Commentary. Wheaton, Ill: Scripture Press, 1985.
But, in each of these references, the Greek text does not substantiate the translation. w’s are long o’s.
2 Ti 1:9 before time began. pro cronwn aiwniwn = before age times.
Tit 1:2 before time began. pro cronwn aiwniwn = before age times.
1 Co 2:7 prowrisen ho theos pro twn aiwnwn = God predestined before the ages
Augustine, who lived from 354-430 AD, was not the one who formulated this idea about God. He was influenced by Plato through Plotinus. Most scholars in the ancient world of Augustine understood Plato’s concept of God. He had influenced almost all the schools of philosophy of that time. Plato explained God’s immutability in, “A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus.” He wrote: “Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily . . . be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself. Plato V, Republic I, Loeb Classical Library, Book II, Chapters XIX-XXI, pp. 191-197, trans. by Paul Shorey.
This argument was formulated by Plato and later adopted by Augustine through the writings of the Neoplatonists, especially Plotinus. Let me emphasize again, what Plato said at the end of his dialogue. He basically said that since God is perfect, he is not altered or moved by anything else. Here is Plato’s conclusion about God’s immutability again. “. . . the gods themselves are incapable of change . . . Then God . . . neither changes”.
Lots of talk, but no biblical proof.
Bob Hill
Isa 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
It’s not that “Time is a creation of God, therefore it does not control Him.” that matters. God has always existed and always will. Time is onerous to us because we have to sleep, work, punch a clock-all kinds of things that time frustrates. I’m 73. Time and its consequences of aging are a bummer, but God doesn’t get old.
My biggest hang-up was that I was taught, and thought at one time that God was outside of time. I no longer believe that because I don’t see the biblical proof. If any of these things could be proved from Scripture, I would be happy to change. I believed things from Greek philosophy at one time, but the Bible doesn’t corroborate what I once believed.
There are many Scripture passages that say that God changes His mind, answers prayer or repents. Many Christians don’t sympathize with Calvinism at all but believe that a solution to the problem of God’s repentance in about thirty passages in the Bible. They are the nacham passages, when God repents.
Paul Tillich and many others have borrowed from Greek philosophy: “The eternal now, that God is not in time.” I have been studying this topic for 50 years and have not found one place that says God is outside of time or even alludes to that idea. Instead, the Bible shows God working with us in time.
I’m a biblicist. Show me from God’s word that God is outside of time. When a Christian philosopher maintained that God was outside of time, the only thing he could tell me was his reference to “Paul Tillich’s phrase, “The eternal now, that God is not in time.” But, that’s not in the Bible.
Again, I have heard this from many sources, but there is no Scripture which states this. What they sometimes refer to are the following passages: 2 Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began. Walvoord & Zuck wrote at 1 Co 2:7, “The message which Paul proclaimed was God’s secret wisdom, known only by God’s revelation (Matt. 11:25). At the heart of this wisdom is the plan of salvation intended for our glory, determined before time began (Eph. 1:4).” The Bible Knowledge Commentary. Wheaton, Ill: Scripture Press, 1985.
But, in each of these references, the Greek text does not substantiate the translation. w’s are long o’s.
2 Ti 1:9 before time began. pro cronwn aiwniwn = before age times.
Tit 1:2 before time began. pro cronwn aiwniwn = before age times.
1 Co 2:7 prowrisen ho theos pro twn aiwnwn = God predestined before the ages
Augustine, who lived from 354-430 AD, was not the one who formulated this idea about God. He was influenced by Plato through Plotinus. Most scholars in the ancient world of Augustine understood Plato’s concept of God. He had influenced almost all the schools of philosophy of that time. Plato explained God’s immutability in, “A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus.” He wrote: “Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily . . . be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself. Plato V, Republic I, Loeb Classical Library, Book II, Chapters XIX-XXI, pp. 191-197, trans. by Paul Shorey.
This argument was formulated by Plato and later adopted by Augustine through the writings of the Neoplatonists, especially Plotinus. Let me emphasize again, what Plato said at the end of his dialogue. He basically said that since God is perfect, he is not altered or moved by anything else. Here is Plato’s conclusion about God’s immutability again. “. . . the gods themselves are incapable of change . . . Then God . . . neither changes”.
Lots of talk, but no biblical proof.
Bob Hill
godrulz said:
Okay, you said a lot of stuff here and I want to continue this conversation because it is one of, if not the most important subjects in all of Christian theology but I need to see if I understand you correctly first.
Would you agree generally with the following statement, which is my attempt to boil everything you've said above into a single sentence...
We are saved by faith and faith alone but we are sanctified, or conformed to the image of Christ, or however you want to phrase it, by our willful and continued obedience.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Godrulz,
Would you agree with that statement?
For the record, I would not, although I think I understand the sense in which Pastor Hill says that he would agree but in the context of our immediate conversation I would definately insist that the above statement is false.
Resting in Him,
Clete
We are saved by faith and faith alone but we are sanctified, or conformed to the image of Christ, or however you want to phrase it, by our willful and continued obedience.
Would you agree with that statement?
For the record, I would not, although I think I understand the sense in which Pastor Hill says that he would agree but in the context of our immediate conversation I would definately insist that the above statement is false.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Clete said:
We would have to define what saving faith is. It is more than head knowledge like demons have (James). There is a verse or two that seem to equate justification and sanctification. At conversion, we are set apart for God as holy unto Him. There are other contexts that seem to indicate a progressive growing in conformity to His character as we walk in the Spirit and light. Loving obedience is linked with holiness in some contexts. Jesus also linked love, faith, and obedience. Does it have to be faith or obedience, or can it be faith and obedience? The exhortations in Scripture expect an active response and cooperation with the Spirit. Yielding to the Spirit or quenching/grieving the Spirit should not be seen as self-righteousness or sanctification. Apart from the work of the Spirit, we cannot be saved nor sanctified. The Spirit is not a divine rapist, so not everyone responds in faith and surrender initially at salvation nor during our walk with Christ (otherwise all would be saved or all would be equally spiritually mature).
Obedience is a response to God, not a self-righteous work. If we continually disobey, it will hinder our growth. If God puts His finger on an area of our lives (Paul dealt with many areas in believer's lives), then we need to deal with it in His power. If we do not live up to the light we have, we tend to slow our growth.
Growth= time + obedience + Spirit/Word.
This explains why some pew warmers are less mature after two decades than some new believers after a few years. Those who yield and obey can be more mature, despite less chronological years in the faith. I think it is both faith and obedience, not either faith or obedience. Pauline commands and exhortations are to be obeyed, not ignored. The Spirit does not make us grow against our wills or just because we believe we are in Christ. I can read the Green Letters (Stanford) and affirm them while ignoring the promptings of the Spirit and yielding to the flesh.
Sanctification involves the work of the Spirit first and foremost, but there is also an element of yielding/obedience on our parts (Romans 6-8 deals with sanctification; Rom. 4; 5= justification).
Did godrulz just admit that he doesn't know the definition of saving faith?:squint:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Clete,
You are very insightful. My phraseology was very bad.
No matter what I do after I have trusted in Christ as my Savior, I am sealed until the day of redemption. I will maintain a relationship with God. Now, let's say that after I've been saved for 55 years, that I have something happen that really turns me off towards God. Then, I quit the ministry and begin living a godless life. Am I still saved? I believe I would still be saved. Why? Because I have been sealed unto the day of redemption. I would miss out in eternal blessings, but I would definitely go to heaven.
Thanks for checking me. :think:
In Christ,
Bob Hill
You are very insightful. My phraseology was very bad.
No matter what I do after I have trusted in Christ as my Savior, I am sealed until the day of redemption. I will maintain a relationship with God. Now, let's say that after I've been saved for 55 years, that I have something happen that really turns me off towards God. Then, I quit the ministry and begin living a godless life. Am I still saved? I believe I would still be saved. Why? Because I have been sealed unto the day of redemption. I would miss out in eternal blessings, but I would definitely go to heaven.
Thanks for checking me. :think:
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Godrulz,
I’m not sure that you are understanding what I'm driving at. The point I'm attempting to make here isn't cryptic, or at least it isn't intended to be. What the statement I asked you to affirm was simply a restatement of your previous post and so I don't see any need to define terms. The comment was based on your own words. Let me try again….
Would you agree that it takes nothing from us at all but faith (i.e. belief) to get saved but in order to be sanctified (i.e. to mature in our relationship with God) it takes more than simply believing the gospel but it takes that plus our willful obedience to the commands of God?
If this is basically what you believe then please explain what sort of things must we do to become sanctified and/or matured Christians, in your view?
And please don't read any sarcasm into that question, I'm really asking. What sorts of things are required for the Christian to mature spiritually? Tithing? Church attendance? A healthy prayer life? Bible reading? Loving your neighbor as yourself? Obeying the Ten Commandments? Perhaps all of these things? Would you say that obedience to the moral law of God doesn’t save us but it should be used by the Christian as a rule of life in order to facilitate maturing our relationship with Him?
Then after you’ve answered that one the next question is, what happens if the Christian fails to continue doing these things? Does he simply stop maturing and start back sliding? Can a Christian backslide himself into not being saved any longer or does the Christian who gives up trying to live by God’s rules, lose his salvation all together right off the bat?
Again, I really am interested to know what you views are on this. I know it’s off topic but who cares. A thread this old can survive an extended bunny trail. And besides having this conversation here will help keep us from getting distracted by countless mindless comments by those who seem obsessed with the OSAS issue. Trust me; I won’t let us stay away from the issue of Open Theism for very long. In fact, if this goes more than two or three more iterations, I’ll have Knight or Turbo or someone move it to another thread.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I’m not sure that you are understanding what I'm driving at. The point I'm attempting to make here isn't cryptic, or at least it isn't intended to be. What the statement I asked you to affirm was simply a restatement of your previous post and so I don't see any need to define terms. The comment was based on your own words. Let me try again….
Would you agree that it takes nothing from us at all but faith (i.e. belief) to get saved but in order to be sanctified (i.e. to mature in our relationship with God) it takes more than simply believing the gospel but it takes that plus our willful obedience to the commands of God?
If this is basically what you believe then please explain what sort of things must we do to become sanctified and/or matured Christians, in your view?
And please don't read any sarcasm into that question, I'm really asking. What sorts of things are required for the Christian to mature spiritually? Tithing? Church attendance? A healthy prayer life? Bible reading? Loving your neighbor as yourself? Obeying the Ten Commandments? Perhaps all of these things? Would you say that obedience to the moral law of God doesn’t save us but it should be used by the Christian as a rule of life in order to facilitate maturing our relationship with Him?
Then after you’ve answered that one the next question is, what happens if the Christian fails to continue doing these things? Does he simply stop maturing and start back sliding? Can a Christian backslide himself into not being saved any longer or does the Christian who gives up trying to live by God’s rules, lose his salvation all together right off the bat?
Again, I really am interested to know what you views are on this. I know it’s off topic but who cares. A thread this old can survive an extended bunny trail. And besides having this conversation here will help keep us from getting distracted by countless mindless comments by those who seem obsessed with the OSAS issue. Trust me; I won’t let us stay away from the issue of Open Theism for very long. In fact, if this goes more than two or three more iterations, I’ll have Knight or Turbo or someone move it to another thread.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well you weren't really wrong. In a very important sense, we as Christians are indeed matured into the image of Christ by being obedient to Him (Gal. 3:1) just not in the sense in which I think that Godrulz believes (Gal. 3:3). It was my phraseology that could have been better, which I knew when I posted it but couldn’t figure out any better way of putting it at the time.Bob Hill said:
I wonder if you could do me a huge favor? Years ago, my wife and I visited your church and while I was there I got a booklet from you entitled "You Cannot Live the Christian Life!"
Do you have that booklet in a form which would permit you to post it here on TOL? If so would you do so? I can't think of a more appropriate thing to post given the subject of this current conversation.
Resting in Him,
Clete
But if you truly knew Christ, would anything make you turn away?Bob Hill said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Lighthouse,
I'm totally convinced that I will not turn away, or anything that happens to me will cause me to turn away. I have been saved, now, for 55 years, and I have never doubted one bit in all that time.
What I do believe is this. If someone who really got saved in this Dispensation of Grace fell away, that person would still be saved. Why? Because he was sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Bob Hill
I'm totally convinced that I will not turn away, or anything that happens to me will cause me to turn away. I have been saved, now, for 55 years, and I have never doubted one bit in all that time.
What I do believe is this. If someone who really got saved in this Dispensation of Grace fell away, that person would still be saved. Why? Because he was sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Clete,
This is all I have on that subject.
You Cannot Live the Christian Life
In my years of being a Christian, I have found out one thing to be very certain. You cannot live the Christian life. This is an absolute. I have found this to be the truth after many years. I have tried everything you can imagine. I haven’t really made much progress. I can remember when our church was trying to follow Brother Lawrence’s principles about practicing the presence of God. I have been meditating on the word of God for years and years and years and years. Yet when I look at my attitudes inside – I’m not talking about the outward appearance, I can make that look pretty good, sometimes – but when I look at the inside, I believe I’ve made very little progress. Look at Peter. He declared before the crucifixion, “No matter if everybody forsakes you, I won’t.” Well, after he denied Christ three times, the rooster crowed and Peter realized that he couldn’t live the Christian life either – until the power of the Holy Spirit came upon him at Pentecost. Then He was a different man. What was the secret Peter found out? He knew everything Jesus taught him in three years of discipleship. But until the Holy Spirit came in power, he was bankrupt. Do you identify with Peter and me? Have you tried to live the Christian life only to find it’s impossible?
I can remember preaching a sermon titled, “The Christian Life Isn’t Difficult, It’s Impossible.” The conclusion of that sermon was to feed on God’s word. Although it helped, it still wasn’t the answer. So, where can we look for help?
The first place I think of is the epistles of Paul. In the middle of the record of his struggle to live the Christian life, Paul said in Philippians 3:10, “that I may know Him”. That was his life long goal. For the last two years, the main theme in my discipleship groups has been to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. Finally, that’s my goal. I say, “finally,” because it has taken me so many years to realize this vital truth. Just as important, I realize that we must look at the only one who lived the Christian life in this world. If we want to see how Jesus Christ lived His life in this world, the gospels is the place to go. If we are to know Him, we have to go back to the gospels to see what He was like, what He did, and what He said, because I want to get to know Him better.
It’s amazing what we find. Even the Son said He could not live the Christian life. Do you realize this? The Son actually said that? Now let’s stop and think about that for a minute. You might think that you could maybe live the Christian life. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God the Son, when He was on the earth as a human, said He could not live the Christian life. In John 5:19,20, He said, “the Son can do nothing of Himself”. Now, if He is trying to live the Christian life, how can He do it? He says He can’t do it, doesn’t He? (I’m indebted to Gene Edwards’ first six chapters of his book, The Secret to the Christian Life, The Seed Sowers Christian Books Publishing House, Box 3368, Auburn, Maine, 04212, 1991.)
It continues, “but what He sees the Father do, 20 for the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does.” I hate to tell you – after being saved for 45 years, being a pastor for 24 and a youth leader the other 21 – but this is a totally knew idea to me. It’s like – where have I been? Where have I been? Christ, out of Himself, could do nothing. When we think on this and then realize that Christ could do nothing from Himself, it is a liberating knowledge. That’s why I can’t do it.
As we continue reading what our Lord said and thought, the impact for the Christian life is astonishing. In John 5:30, He said, “I can from Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” So, Jesus Christ could not do it Himself. He always relied on the Father. His whole time on earth was lived in communion with the Father. Constantly, everything He did – He was always looking to the Father. The Father was indwelling Him by means of the Spirit. And yet we think – call me if you think I’m wrong – we think we can live the Christian life – we can do that if we do the right things. I know – I hate to say it – I know that’s what I thought. And the end of that trail is failure, and I’ve experienced that.
Can you imagine this: Although He was the God of the universe, incarnate, He couldn’t do anything by Himself. And yet, we think we can live the Christian life if we do the right things. Christ’s whole “Christian life” was lived by the power of His Father. I could have titled this sermon, “The Secret of the Christian Life.” But so many others have written books with that title, and they didn’t help me, so I didn’t want to tell you that. I want to tell you “You Cannot Live the Christian Life.” You can’t! You can’t!
Now, even in His death, consider this. He was looking at His death. It was going to be soon. So He said to His disciples, “Let’s go to the garden, I want to pray.” So what did He say when He prayed? He said, “If it’s possible, let this cup pass from Me.” But He didn’t stop there, did He? He was in constant communion with His Father, and He said, “Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done.” Wow! He conformed His will to the Father’s. His death was according to the Father’s will, not His own. That’s why He said in John 8:28, again, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He (the Messiah) and that I do nothing from Myself”.
When we think we’re doing the Christian life, what do we do? We say, oh, well, I can do that, and we pat ourselves on the back for being such a good Christian. Yet, Christ said, “I do nothing from Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.” He was in communion with the Father constantly, and the Father was telling Him what to do. And He always did it.
Our Lord was in constant fellowship with the Father. It seems that God inspired John to write about the secret of the Christian life, and I expected to find it in Paul. Well, it’s there, too. But the real stuff, here, is in John, because it says over and over that Jesus Christ, the Son of God lived His life on earth in total dependence on the Father. The theme of total dependence continues in John 14:10,11, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.”
In the same way, people may not be able to believe that the Father is dwelling in us. Just reflect and put yourself in your routine for a week. People are watching you, and they say “Wow! look at the works of God.” And yet, that’s what Christ said. And that’s what He wants us to be. He wants the works of the Father to be displayed in us rather than our fleshy works. We can produce those good works to some extent by following rules, but let’s not fool ourselves – they’re works of the flesh, not the Father’s. We can not live the Christian life. We can not live the Christian life, but when they see His works in us they should believe – that is, if they are His works rather than our own fleshy works.
He can live it in us. He can live this life in us. You may think, “Well, what’s the difference? He’s living it, but I’m doing it. No! No! No! That’s wrong! That’s where I’ve had it all wrong. In Philippians 2:12,13 God inspired Paul to write, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
We produce it in our lives by concentrating on loving Him. Then He does it. Without our part, God is hindered. Consider Romans 8:28. [NKJ] “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [I disagree. My translation follows.] We know that He works with those loving God, all things, sunergei, unto good, with those who are called according to [His] purpose. God works with us. We have to work with God. When we love Him, He can produce His life in us. He is always working in the believer, but we do not always let Him work in us. Look up the word sunergei, Strong’s 4903, sunergeo. You’ll see it means “work together with, work with”.
God will live it in us, if we let Him, for later, in John 14:23, He said to His apostles, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” Now who is the “We”, here? First you read the Holy Spirit is coming, then the Father, then, We – God is coming. He came to live in you and me. And we’re not awestruck by this. We think, yea, of course.
Finally, in John 15:5, He said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” No matter how we look at that. With the emphasis on the “can”, or the “nothing”, we still can do nothing. I have felt and thought I could do many things without total reliance upon God. Haven’t you? It’s bankrupt, just like Peter, yet we seem to think we can do spiritual things without Him. Therefore, I believe the only way we can live the Christian life, is to follow Christ’s directions when He was on earth and when He ascended and spoke again through the Apostle Paul. In John 17:26, Jesus said, “I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it”. Why? “that the love with which You loved Me may be in them”. Now this is awesome – that God the Father’s love, the love He had for the Son, which is eternal love, can be in us. Wow! And Jesus Christ would be in us, “and I in them.”
Not everyone wants to live for God. When man, in general, did not want God in his life, God wrote Romans 1:28 through Paul, “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, (thinking about God) God gave them over to a debased mind,” He didn’t give them a debased mind, He just allowed them to have the results of their behavior. “to do those things which are not fitting.” We have seen the results – the debauchery of a godless society.
However, you know that God had a solution for our inability. What did He do? He saved us. He demonstrated that love by sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins while we were still sinners. After He saved us and sealed us, according to Rom 5:5, “the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”
Now I’m an unemotional person by temperament. I’m not a feeling person at all in my temperament. But I have been experiencing a miracle in my life – a flowing of God’s love into my being, and it’s coming out. I don’t even have to think, “O.K., I’ve gotta love my wife. It’s just coming out. And it’s neat. And I’m loving my congregation. But it’s amazing; I know it’s not me. I just say, “Whoa, what’s happening here?” And I know what the secret is. The secret is loving God. Concentrate on loving God.
Many times when I go to bed at night, I tell God why I love Him. The next thing I know, it’s morning. But now, I enjoy it so much I don’t go to sleep right away. I tell Him, these are the reasons I love you. Before, I used to run out of things. When you lie there telling Him, I think He loves to hear it. I think He loves to hear our praise from a pure heart. And, what happens? I’ll tell you what happens – He produces a miracle in your soul. He generates love in your soul and you start loving. Oh! it feels great.
But this flowing of the love of God into all parts of our life can be quenched. Here’s how it can be quenched. Your mate does or says something to you that is unexpected. You consider it negative. When you are married to someone who is exactly the opposite, like Joan and me, there will be many areas for potential conflict. If we have not been communing with the Lord when this happens, we react in the flesh, and even though our outer actions may be all right, the inner attitudes can be awful. This grieves the Spirit.
No rules can produce life. That’s exactly what Galatians 3:21 says: “If there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.” But although I realize that this verse is referring to salvation, the same can be said for the Christian life. There’s only one thing we can do. And I believe this is an absolute. We can concentrate on loving Him and having fellowship with Him. That’s what we can do. So, there is an “I can.” We can concentrate on loving God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. I can do it as I feed on His word and the Holy Spirit enables me to love Him by faith. As faith is generated in me, then, by an act of faith I can love God. That’s why I must stay in constant communion with my Father and concentrate on loving Him. The Father is the one who does it, for 1 Thessalonians 3:12 says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you.” When we let Him do this. When we concentrate on loving Him, we will be loving. We will find that this is the key to the Christian life.
That’s what Paul’s prayer for us is all about in Ephesians 3:14-19. This is my favorite passage in Ephesians. When we meditate on it, Christ is formed in our lives. When Ephesians 3:14-19 becomes real in our lives, we experience His life. Paul wrote,
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He [the Father] would give you, according to the riches of His glory, [Now you know, He only owns a few things.] to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith [by faith]; that you, being rooted and grounded in [theology?] love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height; 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge.
When I see some of the things coming out of me – it surpasses my knowledge. It blows my mind. I see miracles happening in my life. Miracles! And I thought the day of miracles was over. But it’s the stuff that’s beyond knowledge, and anything beyond knowledge is a miracle. It’s beyond my understanding.
that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Wow! Oh man! Do you see why I love this passage? We are being filled with all the fullness of God. We actually are the fullness of God according to Ephesians 1:23. And God is filling us in every way if we re loving Him. Does that mean you have to get into the word and meditate on it every day? No. Now that sure is strange coming from this writer. But, I think it means that when you trusted Jesus Christ, you heard that God loved you so much that He sent His Son to die for you. In Romans 5:8, you see that He demonstrated His love to you by sending His son to die for you. When you received your salvation, you received His love. If you would just meditate on that! Just think, if you were illiterate, you couldn’t read, but you could still meditate on loving God, and God would produce His love in you. Now, I believe reading and meditating on the word helps a lot. It helps you see who God is, how He acts, and how wonderful He is. Then you can meditate on more things about His person. I couldn’t lie in bed last night and just say, “You gave your Son to die for me,” and go no further. I can go on and tell Him, because, in fact I told Him last night, “I love You because you’re the risky God. You were willing to create free agents.” Wow! I can’t believe that. I wouldn’t do it that way. I’d want to control everybody. I would make them little robots.
That fullness of God of verse 19 is the Christian life lived by God almighty in us. When that continues to happen and we love Him, and He continues to fill us – and I do say when, not if – on a regular basis, God will live the Christian life through Jesus Christ who is formed in us. Even though Paul had not attained the perfect Christian life, that’s what he was striving for. He wrote Philippians about four years before he was killed by Rome. At that time he said he had not attained it, but His goal was to pursue the prize of the high calling. And this high calling is the Christian life.
What is your goal? Loving God with all your might is the answer. Anything else will end in failure. I know, I tried everything else. Don’t be stupid like I was. I struggled for so many years with little benefit. Concentrate on knowing and loving the one person who will produce the Christian life in you. God is the only one who knows your heart. When you are constantly in tune with Him, it’s amazing how you’ll change. You won’t do those besetting sins that no one knows about except you – and God. Why don’t you make a commitment to love Him as much as you can.
Loved by God, and trying to love Him,
Bob
This is all I have on that subject.
You Cannot Live the Christian Life
In my years of being a Christian, I have found out one thing to be very certain. You cannot live the Christian life. This is an absolute. I have found this to be the truth after many years. I have tried everything you can imagine. I haven’t really made much progress. I can remember when our church was trying to follow Brother Lawrence’s principles about practicing the presence of God. I have been meditating on the word of God for years and years and years and years. Yet when I look at my attitudes inside – I’m not talking about the outward appearance, I can make that look pretty good, sometimes – but when I look at the inside, I believe I’ve made very little progress. Look at Peter. He declared before the crucifixion, “No matter if everybody forsakes you, I won’t.” Well, after he denied Christ three times, the rooster crowed and Peter realized that he couldn’t live the Christian life either – until the power of the Holy Spirit came upon him at Pentecost. Then He was a different man. What was the secret Peter found out? He knew everything Jesus taught him in three years of discipleship. But until the Holy Spirit came in power, he was bankrupt. Do you identify with Peter and me? Have you tried to live the Christian life only to find it’s impossible?
I can remember preaching a sermon titled, “The Christian Life Isn’t Difficult, It’s Impossible.” The conclusion of that sermon was to feed on God’s word. Although it helped, it still wasn’t the answer. So, where can we look for help?
The first place I think of is the epistles of Paul. In the middle of the record of his struggle to live the Christian life, Paul said in Philippians 3:10, “that I may know Him”. That was his life long goal. For the last two years, the main theme in my discipleship groups has been to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. Finally, that’s my goal. I say, “finally,” because it has taken me so many years to realize this vital truth. Just as important, I realize that we must look at the only one who lived the Christian life in this world. If we want to see how Jesus Christ lived His life in this world, the gospels is the place to go. If we are to know Him, we have to go back to the gospels to see what He was like, what He did, and what He said, because I want to get to know Him better.
It’s amazing what we find. Even the Son said He could not live the Christian life. Do you realize this? The Son actually said that? Now let’s stop and think about that for a minute. You might think that you could maybe live the Christian life. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God the Son, when He was on the earth as a human, said He could not live the Christian life. In John 5:19,20, He said, “the Son can do nothing of Himself”. Now, if He is trying to live the Christian life, how can He do it? He says He can’t do it, doesn’t He? (I’m indebted to Gene Edwards’ first six chapters of his book, The Secret to the Christian Life, The Seed Sowers Christian Books Publishing House, Box 3368, Auburn, Maine, 04212, 1991.)
It continues, “but what He sees the Father do, 20 for the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does.” I hate to tell you – after being saved for 45 years, being a pastor for 24 and a youth leader the other 21 – but this is a totally knew idea to me. It’s like – where have I been? Where have I been? Christ, out of Himself, could do nothing. When we think on this and then realize that Christ could do nothing from Himself, it is a liberating knowledge. That’s why I can’t do it.
As we continue reading what our Lord said and thought, the impact for the Christian life is astonishing. In John 5:30, He said, “I can from Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” So, Jesus Christ could not do it Himself. He always relied on the Father. His whole time on earth was lived in communion with the Father. Constantly, everything He did – He was always looking to the Father. The Father was indwelling Him by means of the Spirit. And yet we think – call me if you think I’m wrong – we think we can live the Christian life – we can do that if we do the right things. I know – I hate to say it – I know that’s what I thought. And the end of that trail is failure, and I’ve experienced that.
Can you imagine this: Although He was the God of the universe, incarnate, He couldn’t do anything by Himself. And yet, we think we can live the Christian life if we do the right things. Christ’s whole “Christian life” was lived by the power of His Father. I could have titled this sermon, “The Secret of the Christian Life.” But so many others have written books with that title, and they didn’t help me, so I didn’t want to tell you that. I want to tell you “You Cannot Live the Christian Life.” You can’t! You can’t!
Now, even in His death, consider this. He was looking at His death. It was going to be soon. So He said to His disciples, “Let’s go to the garden, I want to pray.” So what did He say when He prayed? He said, “If it’s possible, let this cup pass from Me.” But He didn’t stop there, did He? He was in constant communion with His Father, and He said, “Nevertheless, not my will, but your will be done.” Wow! He conformed His will to the Father’s. His death was according to the Father’s will, not His own. That’s why He said in John 8:28, again, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He (the Messiah) and that I do nothing from Myself”.
When we think we’re doing the Christian life, what do we do? We say, oh, well, I can do that, and we pat ourselves on the back for being such a good Christian. Yet, Christ said, “I do nothing from Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.” He was in communion with the Father constantly, and the Father was telling Him what to do. And He always did it.
Our Lord was in constant fellowship with the Father. It seems that God inspired John to write about the secret of the Christian life, and I expected to find it in Paul. Well, it’s there, too. But the real stuff, here, is in John, because it says over and over that Jesus Christ, the Son of God lived His life on earth in total dependence on the Father. The theme of total dependence continues in John 14:10,11, “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.”
In the same way, people may not be able to believe that the Father is dwelling in us. Just reflect and put yourself in your routine for a week. People are watching you, and they say “Wow! look at the works of God.” And yet, that’s what Christ said. And that’s what He wants us to be. He wants the works of the Father to be displayed in us rather than our fleshy works. We can produce those good works to some extent by following rules, but let’s not fool ourselves – they’re works of the flesh, not the Father’s. We can not live the Christian life. We can not live the Christian life, but when they see His works in us they should believe – that is, if they are His works rather than our own fleshy works.
He can live it in us. He can live this life in us. You may think, “Well, what’s the difference? He’s living it, but I’m doing it. No! No! No! That’s wrong! That’s where I’ve had it all wrong. In Philippians 2:12,13 God inspired Paul to write, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
We produce it in our lives by concentrating on loving Him. Then He does it. Without our part, God is hindered. Consider Romans 8:28. [NKJ] “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” [I disagree. My translation follows.] We know that He works with those loving God, all things, sunergei, unto good, with those who are called according to [His] purpose. God works with us. We have to work with God. When we love Him, He can produce His life in us. He is always working in the believer, but we do not always let Him work in us. Look up the word sunergei, Strong’s 4903, sunergeo. You’ll see it means “work together with, work with”.
God will live it in us, if we let Him, for later, in John 14:23, He said to His apostles, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” Now who is the “We”, here? First you read the Holy Spirit is coming, then the Father, then, We – God is coming. He came to live in you and me. And we’re not awestruck by this. We think, yea, of course.
Finally, in John 15:5, He said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” No matter how we look at that. With the emphasis on the “can”, or the “nothing”, we still can do nothing. I have felt and thought I could do many things without total reliance upon God. Haven’t you? It’s bankrupt, just like Peter, yet we seem to think we can do spiritual things without Him. Therefore, I believe the only way we can live the Christian life, is to follow Christ’s directions when He was on earth and when He ascended and spoke again through the Apostle Paul. In John 17:26, Jesus said, “I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it”. Why? “that the love with which You loved Me may be in them”. Now this is awesome – that God the Father’s love, the love He had for the Son, which is eternal love, can be in us. Wow! And Jesus Christ would be in us, “and I in them.”
Not everyone wants to live for God. When man, in general, did not want God in his life, God wrote Romans 1:28 through Paul, “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, (thinking about God) God gave them over to a debased mind,” He didn’t give them a debased mind, He just allowed them to have the results of their behavior. “to do those things which are not fitting.” We have seen the results – the debauchery of a godless society.
However, you know that God had a solution for our inability. What did He do? He saved us. He demonstrated that love by sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins while we were still sinners. After He saved us and sealed us, according to Rom 5:5, “the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”
Now I’m an unemotional person by temperament. I’m not a feeling person at all in my temperament. But I have been experiencing a miracle in my life – a flowing of God’s love into my being, and it’s coming out. I don’t even have to think, “O.K., I’ve gotta love my wife. It’s just coming out. And it’s neat. And I’m loving my congregation. But it’s amazing; I know it’s not me. I just say, “Whoa, what’s happening here?” And I know what the secret is. The secret is loving God. Concentrate on loving God.
Many times when I go to bed at night, I tell God why I love Him. The next thing I know, it’s morning. But now, I enjoy it so much I don’t go to sleep right away. I tell Him, these are the reasons I love you. Before, I used to run out of things. When you lie there telling Him, I think He loves to hear it. I think He loves to hear our praise from a pure heart. And, what happens? I’ll tell you what happens – He produces a miracle in your soul. He generates love in your soul and you start loving. Oh! it feels great.
But this flowing of the love of God into all parts of our life can be quenched. Here’s how it can be quenched. Your mate does or says something to you that is unexpected. You consider it negative. When you are married to someone who is exactly the opposite, like Joan and me, there will be many areas for potential conflict. If we have not been communing with the Lord when this happens, we react in the flesh, and even though our outer actions may be all right, the inner attitudes can be awful. This grieves the Spirit.
No rules can produce life. That’s exactly what Galatians 3:21 says: “If there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.” But although I realize that this verse is referring to salvation, the same can be said for the Christian life. There’s only one thing we can do. And I believe this is an absolute. We can concentrate on loving Him and having fellowship with Him. That’s what we can do. So, there is an “I can.” We can concentrate on loving God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, and with all our mind. I can do it as I feed on His word and the Holy Spirit enables me to love Him by faith. As faith is generated in me, then, by an act of faith I can love God. That’s why I must stay in constant communion with my Father and concentrate on loving Him. The Father is the one who does it, for 1 Thessalonians 3:12 says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you.” When we let Him do this. When we concentrate on loving Him, we will be loving. We will find that this is the key to the Christian life.
That’s what Paul’s prayer for us is all about in Ephesians 3:14-19. This is my favorite passage in Ephesians. When we meditate on it, Christ is formed in our lives. When Ephesians 3:14-19 becomes real in our lives, we experience His life. Paul wrote,
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He [the Father] would give you, according to the riches of His glory, [Now you know, He only owns a few things.] to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in our hearts through faith [by faith]; that you, being rooted and grounded in [theology?] love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height; 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge.
When I see some of the things coming out of me – it surpasses my knowledge. It blows my mind. I see miracles happening in my life. Miracles! And I thought the day of miracles was over. But it’s the stuff that’s beyond knowledge, and anything beyond knowledge is a miracle. It’s beyond my understanding.
that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Wow! Oh man! Do you see why I love this passage? We are being filled with all the fullness of God. We actually are the fullness of God according to Ephesians 1:23. And God is filling us in every way if we re loving Him. Does that mean you have to get into the word and meditate on it every day? No. Now that sure is strange coming from this writer. But, I think it means that when you trusted Jesus Christ, you heard that God loved you so much that He sent His Son to die for you. In Romans 5:8, you see that He demonstrated His love to you by sending His son to die for you. When you received your salvation, you received His love. If you would just meditate on that! Just think, if you were illiterate, you couldn’t read, but you could still meditate on loving God, and God would produce His love in you. Now, I believe reading and meditating on the word helps a lot. It helps you see who God is, how He acts, and how wonderful He is. Then you can meditate on more things about His person. I couldn’t lie in bed last night and just say, “You gave your Son to die for me,” and go no further. I can go on and tell Him, because, in fact I told Him last night, “I love You because you’re the risky God. You were willing to create free agents.” Wow! I can’t believe that. I wouldn’t do it that way. I’d want to control everybody. I would make them little robots.
That fullness of God of verse 19 is the Christian life lived by God almighty in us. When that continues to happen and we love Him, and He continues to fill us – and I do say when, not if – on a regular basis, God will live the Christian life through Jesus Christ who is formed in us. Even though Paul had not attained the perfect Christian life, that’s what he was striving for. He wrote Philippians about four years before he was killed by Rome. At that time he said he had not attained it, but His goal was to pursue the prize of the high calling. And this high calling is the Christian life.
What is your goal? Loving God with all your might is the answer. Anything else will end in failure. I know, I tried everything else. Don’t be stupid like I was. I struggled for so many years with little benefit. Concentrate on knowing and loving the one person who will produce the Christian life in you. God is the only one who knows your heart. When you are constantly in tune with Him, it’s amazing how you’ll change. You won’t do those besetting sins that no one knows about except you – and God. Why don’t you make a commitment to love Him as much as you can.
Loved by God, and trying to love Him,
Bob
:BRAVO: Keeper!
Bob Hill said:
I like the first paragraph, but question the second paragraph. It is a contradiction in terms, diametrically opposed, mutually exclusive concepts, as to whether one is a believer or an unbeliever. Belief/faith is a condition of initial salvation (Jn. 1:12; 3:16, 36; I Jn. 5:11-13). An unbelieving believer is foreign to Scripture. One either loves God supremely, or one loves Self supremely. Our ultimate choice determines destinty (faith vs unbelief). One cannot be a person of faith and a godless reprobate at the same time. I would suggest your concept of sealing (more of a pledge or earnest until we are ultimately glorified) as unconditional and irreversible may need revisting to avoid the aburdity of a godly-godless person, a Christian-atheist, etc.?!
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Godrulz,
I realize that we will always differ on this aspect of eternal security.
However, in the Dispensation of Grace, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose our salvation. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for (eis, unto) the day of redemption.
When is the day of redemption? It is when we are caught up to be with God forever.
We can grieve the Holy Spirit who is in us every time we are selfish or do not do what He wants. But we have have some wonderful passages of assurance.
Rom 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Because we are saved by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, we in the Dispensation of Grace are also sealed by the Holy Spirit so we cannot lose our salvation. He is our guarantee.
2 Cor 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. We are guaranteed. That means we can’t lose it.
We in the Dispensation of Grace have an absolute assurance of our salvation.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
I realize that we will always differ on this aspect of eternal security.
However, in the Dispensation of Grace, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose our salvation. Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for (eis, unto) the day of redemption.
When is the day of redemption? It is when we are caught up to be with God forever.
We can grieve the Holy Spirit who is in us every time we are selfish or do not do what He wants. But we have have some wonderful passages of assurance.
Rom 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Because we are saved by the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ, we in the Dispensation of Grace are also sealed by the Holy Spirit so we cannot lose our salvation. He is our guarantee.
2 Cor 1:21,22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. We are guaranteed. That means we can’t lose it.
We in the Dispensation of Grace have an absolute assurance of our salvation.
Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Thank you pastor Hill for posting "You Cannot Live the Christian Life"! that was the exact thing I had in mind. It is just terribly traggic that so few Christians have ever heard such a thing before.
Godrulz,
Do you understand why I asked pastor Hill to post that article?
Godrulz,
Do you understand why I asked pastor Hill to post that article?
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