ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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lee_merrill

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deardelmar said:
God exercises "meticulous control" over every human event? Over every theft, murder, rape... God planned every evil thing that ever happened so that some good could come of it?
And if he can, wouldn't that be better?

Though I would say complete control, believing as I do that God's children can really choose, within God's will, although unbelievers cannot really choose at all.

The God of the Bible is righteous!
Yes, so then, in the Open View, is God not at least a necessary cause of all the evil in the world, by him creating it, and knowing what might happen? And according to the Open View, some (much? most?) of the evil comes out to no good, and is irredeemable loss.

But no, the God of the Bible does better than this, indeed, "all his works are righteous" (Dan. 4:37).

Blessings,
Lee
 

sentientsynth

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seekinganswers said:
I'm curious, how do the Open Theists deal with "election" language in the scriptures?

I'm no authority, but I have listened to many of Bob Enyart's Bible study tapes. From what I can gleen, election is corporate. As in, from before the foundation of the world, God knew that there would be an elect-body called the Body of Christ. God didn't foreknow what specific individuals would comprise the Body but He predestined that there simply would be a Body.

I'd take that with a wee grain of salt though. Any Open Theist out there is free to correct me if I've misunderstood.



SS
 

Nathon Detroit

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sentientsynth said:
I'm no authority, but I have listened to many of Bob Enyart's Bible study tapes. From what I can gleen, election is corporate. As in, from before the foundation of the world, God knew that there would be an elect-body called the Body of Christ. God didn't foreknow what specific individuals would comprise the Body but He predestined that there simply would be a Body.

I'd take that with a wee grain of salt though. Any Open Theist out there is free to correct me if I've misunderstood.



SS
Excellent! :up:
 

Nathon Detroit

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Knight said:
- irrational
- inanities
- mindless mystical drivel
- tripe
- Jihad
- sophomoric intransigence

All authored by God, no?
Hilston said:
All authored by God, yes.
Jim... that is an interesting notion.

The Bible states...

The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion - Deuteronomy 28:20
The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. - Deuteronomy 28:28

Yet the Bible also states...
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace - 1Corinthians 14:33

And therefore many nonbelievers use those verses as an apparent contradiction in the Bible.

The Open Theist response would be that God DOES NOT author confusion but instead knows that His power, truth and judgement will effect the minds and hearts of men and as a natural result bring confusion to them, similar to His knowing that His judgement would only further harden Pharaoh's heart yet God didn't actually supernaturally harden Pharaoh's heart.

Therefore.... (and described better in context) the following verse...

Exodus 23:27 I will send My fear before you, I will cause confusion among all the people to whom you come, and will make all your enemies turn their backs to you.

Notice God isn't actually authoring confusion yet in sending His fear God knows it will result in confusion.

Similar to when I go stomping through my living room shouting my kids names (including their middle name) I know it will send them scattering in confusion throughout the house knowing that some judgement is coming down. :) I am not authoring the scattering and confusion but I know it will be a result from my actions.

Yet from your perspective.... (the settled view) you must in fact believe that God authors confusion in every detail.

Settled view claim: Everything authored by God, yes.
God's claim: I am not the author of confusion

Clearly that's a legitimate objection to the settled view.

Is God the author of confusion or not?
 
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sentientsynth

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Just so you know...


The words "the author" in 1 Cor. 14:33 aren't in the Greek but are inserted by the translators. Here are a few different translations.

Darby:
For God is not [a God] of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

ASV:
for God is not [a God] of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

Young's:
for God is not [a God] of tumult, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.




SS
 

godrulz

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seekinganswers said:
I'm curious, how do the Open Theists deal with "election" language in the scriptures? Is Bob's view of God's wavering character (his changing mind) the only take on it? As you could tell, I was not happy with Bob's approach to the scriptures. From my point of view, Bob is ignoring the election language that is present throughout the scriptures. Israel is God's elect people from Abram all the way to Paul (and even to Revelation), and everyone in between affirms this.

You have heard how I take that election language (meaning when God elects it has nothing to do with the ones whom God elects but tells us about God, that God is faithful to the end). How does an Open Theist deal with God's election?

Peace,
Michael

Bob does not believe God's character wavers. Open Theists affirm that God's character is unchanging. What changes is contingencies, thoughts, feelings, actions, experiential knowledge, etc. The incarnation is the most significant change in the Godhead. God was not always flesh in the God-Man, Christ Jesus.

Arminians and Open Theists make a case for corporate vs individual election. God elects Israel and the Church, not individuals. Whoever believes becomes part of the corporate elect. It is not a matter of arbitrary non-election.

Unconditional election, irresistible grace, etc. are deductive presuppositions to support a preconveived theology. They are not based on contextual exegesis. Another interesting study is to see how God's elections or intentions for some individuals can be resisted or undermined. God is so great that He does not always have to get His way. He wanted a theocracy, but the people wanted a king. Saul did not turn out the way the people nor God wanted, despite God's humble concession to His people.
 

seekinganswers

New member
sentientsynth said:
I'm no authority, but I have listened to many of Bob Enyart's Bible study tapes. From what I can gleen, election is corporate. As in, from before the foundation of the world, God knew that there would be an elect-body called the Body of Christ. God didn't foreknow what specific individuals would comprise the Body but He predestined that there simply would be a Body.

I'd take that with a wee grain of salt though. Any Open Theist out there is free to correct me if I've misunderstood.



SS

If this is true, than I think both the open and the closed theists have misunderstood election. Yes, God elects a certain people (which is in contrast to such a generic view of election as you gave above). But God's election tells us nothing about how people will respond to the election (in contrast to double predestination calvinists). When God elects Israel, this tells us about God. And what it tells us is that God will be faithful to Israel; God will fulfill his promises to his people (whether they are faithful or not). The only contingent promise comes with the land (which was made based on Israel's faithfulness to the covenant). But as far as Abraham is concerned, the promise is given without any expectation from him. God will bless this man and his descendants, and it will have nothing to do with Abraham's faithfulness (though Abraham will respond faithfully).

Election tells us that God is faithful. And if God is not faithful to his people, than we should ignore him, for the scriptures tell us that the world only knows that God is God because God is faithful to whom he elects as his people, and through his faithfulness to that people, God draws the nations to himself.

Peace,
Michael
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
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Arminians too Calvinistic for me

Arminians too Calvinistic for me

ChristisKing said:
..... what a horrible theology! I can't imagine how you could ever believe that God "doesn't know" something. What kinda god is this?

But if it helps your arminian theology work better then I guess it's tempting to run with it. I mean anything is better than God choosing, electing and predestinating us, right?

No, your theology that teaches that God picks people for eternal punishment with no chance at salvation is what is horrible. Not to mention that He is responsible for suffering, torture, and genocide. Sorry, but you really ought to wake up and start thinking through your ideas..
 

seekinganswers

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godrulz said:
Bob does not believe God's character wavers. Open Theists affirm that God's character is unchanging. What changes is contingencies, thoughts, feelings, actions, experiential knowledge, etc. The incarnation is the most significant change in the Godhead. God was not always flesh in the God-Man, Christ Jesus.

What is distinguished in God is how God responds to faithfulness vs. faithlessness. When we are faithful God is "happy" and pleased. When we are not faithful, God is grieved and even angered, especially when our faithlessness harms another. I'm still not impressed by the category of "experiential knowledge" simply because that is a category that is given to us by the Enlightenment, where knowledge is passive. I'm still not convinced that God is ever passive in his knowledge of the Creation. I'm still trying to figure out how God has eyes and ears and a mouth, yet remains "spiritual" in your view. Yes, we imagine God as having these things, and that is exactly how idols are made. But the problem is that we are using what has been made to understand God who is the maker. Do we understand the potter's relationship to the clay by what physical shape the clay is made into? Can we compare the experience of the clay with the way in which the potter "experiences" things? It is just absurd for me to think in this way (and you might see why I continue to call this idolatry and anthropomorphism).

As far as the incarnation is concerned, the views of the incarnation are not as ironed out and simple as you present them. What happens in the incarnation for Augustine (which pretty much defines the western view) is that the human nature is plagued with the infirmity of sin, an infirmity that threatens the very integrity of humanity. If human nature is not healed from this infirmity than we are lost. So God in the incarnation unites humanity to himself that we might be saved (which has to be understood in a temporal nature). God redeems human nature in time so that we might be able to participate in that nature and be saved (all of this platonic stuff that you detest, and yet your position stems from this view which is predominantly western and Latin).

The Greeks (Eastern Orthodoxy) had a very different view of the incarnation. It was wrapped up in theosis (something that we look on as being heretical because we do not understand it rightly). The Greeks are accused of turning humanity into "gods," when in fact they are simply going back further in the scriptures. Augustinian views of the incarnation deal with sin; Greek thoughts on the matter have to do with the image of God. How is the image of God held in humanity? This answer comes in Christ, who from the beginning is the image of God united to the form of humanity (though not with a body; we're still in platonic views of the world). From the beginning Christ is both the perfect image of humanity and the perfect image of God. And where this comes into play is in the Word (logos). The logos is united to the Creation from the beginning, so that both the nature of humanity and the nature of God are held in Christ from the beginning. And Christ's incarnation is a reflection of this already united God/human (so that the natures [forms] are eternally held in Christ).

The incarnation is not some easily definable thing. The question, "What is the nature of Christ (the eternal Son of God)," has led to all sorts of views on the incarnation. Is Christ merly God who plays puppet with a human body (gnosticism)? Is Christ created so that he is a mix of God's nature and human nature giving us some third category (Arianism)? Then you have all sorts of other questions...how much of humanity does Christ take on? Is he just a body and soul with a God-mind (Apollinarianism)? Or are the natures distinct from one another so that Christ only participates in one nature at a time (Nestorianism)? The relationship is much more complicated than you admit.

But you come close, Godrulz, to Arianism, which I guess is appropriate since you do not submit to the early declarations of the church, nor are you in agreement with the church's authority to excommunicate (to say that one is not within the church because of what one is teaching and preaching, as opposed to the later Catholic (with a big C) use of excommunication to attack one's enemies). The early councils were not the word of a pope against his enemies; the early councils were a gathering of representatives from churches of different parts of the world who decided to find a center for the scattered gatherings. Though Constantine had called these councils to session, that does not mean that the churches had not desired to gather before this; it just meant that before this moment, they could not do so, because they faced persecution. But the plethora of letters written between the gatherings ought to demonstrate to us that the councils had been previsioned by the churches and were not simply the imposition of the Emperor.

The reason I say that you are a border-line Arian is that you have envisioned Christ as a Creation. Christ was not always united to the human nature, for you, but was made so by God in the first century (and Jesus has become a sort of third category of nature). Since God had not been united to the human nature before Jesus, than God had no idea what we were suffering before that point in time. It's just funny, because if Jesus is the moment of union, than God before Jesus was distinct from God after Jesus. You say that God's character is unchanged in your view of Open Theism, and yet I would argue that the union of God to humanity is a big change in character for God. Before God would have had to guess what we were feeling. Afterwards God experienced it. And you know what, I am in agreement with the early councils on this; this thinking is just not Christian. Jesus doesn't usher us into an era of a new God. Jesus proclaims the God who had always been with Israel (and who was the same God of Creation). Jesus doesn't wing it in experiencing a new thing; Jesus becomes the embodiment of what God had initiated from the beginning and what God was bringing to its telos (i.e. Creation). Jesus is the one who says, "Before Abraham was, I am," not Christ using Jesus' vocal cords and lips. The incarnation in Jesus is the culmination of what had been done from the beginning (i.e. the word becoming flesh).

So Christ is not a new dispensation; Christ is part of the overarching narrative of Creation envisioned by God the Father from the beginning, and Christ will be the one who brings us to the end (telos).

godrulz said:
Arminians and Open Theists make a case for corporate vs individual election. God elects Israel and the Church, not individuals. Whoever believes becomes part of the corporate elect. It is not a matter of arbitrary non-election.

And once again, I don't agree with either the Calvinists or the Arminians/Open Theists. Election is not about us. God elects Abram, and yet Abram doesn't show concrete faithfulness until his willingness to sacrifice Isaac (which comes well after the promise is given not once but numerous times). Abram doubts all through the early chapters of the patriarchal narrative of Genesis (selling off Sarai his wife, the barren woman, not once but twice; conceiving a child with Haggar; questioning God about Sarah's ability to get pregnant; and he does even more things to jeapordize the rest of the promise). The thing is that Abram has to learn that this election of his (a promise with no regards to what he does) has to do not with him or anyone else, but with God. The God who elects Abram is going to fulfill his promise in this election, whether Abram is faithful to this God or not (though faithfulness is far better than faithlessness; and Abraham does respond in faith).

Election is not about us, it is about God, that God will be faithful whether we are faithful or not. Even Paul continues to speak about Israel as the elect of God, even when it is the Israel that has rejected Christ. God's election does not pivot on our response. God's election is about God's faithfulness to the end (for God is the only one who can be faithful to the end). All are wrapped up into this election (including the world) because the God of Israel is the God of the whole cosmos! What God does for Israel is the hope for all Creation. And if God forsakes Israel, we are all the worse for it, because we cannot count on the faithfulness of God.

godrulz said:
Unconditional election, irresistible grace, etc. are deductive presuppositions to support a preconveived theology. They are not based on contextual exegesis. Another interesting study is to see how God's elections or intentions for some individuals can be resisted or undermined. God is so great that He does not always have to get His way. He wanted a theocracy, but the people wanted a king. Saul did not turn out the way the people nor God wanted, despite God's humble concession to His people.

Then tell me about the promise of God to Abram, a man who was the son of the idolator Terah, and who came from a city of idolators? Tell me about the God who elects Jacob over Esau before Jacob is even born? Talk to me about the God who favors Abel's offering to him over Cain's, when this God has said nothing with regards to what an acceptable sacrifice is? Will you explain the God who gives a son to Zachariah when Zachariah doubts, and is a man who only believes when it has happened? Or what about the God who conceives a son by a virgin woman who is betrothed for marriage? Are you talking about the God who is glorified even among the pagans, and whose power is made all the more known by those who resist him? In fact, over all of this, explain the God who elects Israel (an idolatrous nation) over all the other nations who were no more or less idolatrous than Israel? Tell me how Jesus can say that "Salvation is of the Jews"?

God's election is not about us. It is about God, who is faithful when we are faithless, and whose glory is shown whether we are righteous or unrighteous.

Peace,
Michael
 

lee_merrill

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Open Theist view description: election is corporate. As in, from before the foundation of the world, God knew that there would be an elect-body called the Body of Christ. God didn't foreknow what specific individuals would comprise the Body but He predestined that there simply would be a Body.

Knight: Excellent! :up:
But what does it mean to choose a group, as in "I choose those who choose me, to be mine"? That's practically a tautology! As if a politician should say "I choose those who vote for me to be my supporters." Now if the reply is that God chooses people for service, or for glory, then this is God choosing what a group of people will have, instead of choosing people. But Paul writes "He chose us," and though God does choose what people will have, he also chooses people, and this is a primary focus in the passages on election:

1 Thess. 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you...

And if it is said that conditions are being specified in election, rather than actual choices, where are conditions for election stated in Romans 9? Where are entrance criteria mentioned in reference to Isaac, and Jacob, and Pharaoh?

Rom. 9:12 ... not by works but by him who calls ...

Rom. 9:15-16 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

The plain point here is that God is choosing, not man, and the choice is not based on anything they do or will do.

Also, in corporate election, it is held that God is choosing one group now, and then a different group later, but are there different conditions? In both cases, isn't God choosing those who choose him, in the corporate election view? So how is this changing which group is elected?

So corporate election, even if it is true, cannot be a choice between groups, however then it seems not to have a very clear meaning.

It would also seem that God is not choosing from all whom he sees would believe, rather, he is choosing who will believe.

Rom. 9:13-16 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

And this passage is about God's choice for salvation (see 9:3,15,18,22-27).

Rom. 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

Not his perception! His sentence, this is God's decision, and he will carry it out.

Blessings,
Lee
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
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...Tell me about the God who elects Jacob over Esau before Jacob is even born?... Peace said:
The Bible does not teach that God rejected an individual before birth. Please look at the passage in Romans 9 you are referring to. God is talking about two nations, Esau ( Edom), and Jacob (Israel).
A student of God's word should realize that Romans 9:10-13 is quoting from Genesis 25:23 AND Malachi Chapter 1...

Genesis 25:23 (NKJV)
23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”
Note God is talking about two nations...not individuals.

Malachi 1:2-3 (NKJV)
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord. “Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”

Genesis 36:1 (NKJV)
1 Now this is the genealogy of Esau, who is Edom.

Genesis 36:8 (NKJV)
8 So Esau dwelt in Mount Seir. Esau is Edom.
Please confer Jer 49:7-10

Genesis 32:28 (NKJV)
28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

Romans 9:10-13 (NKJV)
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older (greater)shall serve the younger (lesser).” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Malachi was written 1000 years after Genesis 25:23.. God has 1000 years of experience with the two nations. He isn't saying he hated individuals. He loved Edom less than Israel, two nations....

Romans 9 is teaching that God has the authority to Set Israel aside and start a new dispensation ( The Body of Christ) apart from them in their special ststus. Israel was arrogant and assumed God needed them, since they were His chosen people. He goes on to explain in verses 14, 15, and 16 that He can have compassion on whom He chooses....not to send people to Heaven or hell, but special status, service, etc. It is not of the one who runs, ie; their own efforts. Rather, God can set The Jews aside and put His original plan on hold if He so chooses,(which He does)....In this dispensation there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

You err, brother, thinking God is arbitrary. Please do not attribute evil to our Righteous God....
 

seekinganswers

New member
billygoat said:
The Bible does not teach that God rejected an individual before birth. Please look at the passage in Romans 9 you are referring to. God is talking about two nations, Esau ( Edom), and Jacob (Israel).
A student of God's word should realize that Romans 9:10-13 is quoting from Genesis 25:23 AND Malachi Chapter 1...

This sounds like a cop-out to me. Groups, my friend, are made up of individuals. And groups don't exist unless they are composed of those individual members. So there is no group that exists appart from the individuals that compose the group. Edom is nothing without Esau as is Israel without Jacob. The fact is that before they were born God had set out how he would deal with them (appart from how they acted), and God gives no reason why. The younger son had done nothing to receive God's favor, and yet he receives it. The older had done nothing to be declined God's favor, and yet God still withholds it. And is it injustice? No, because God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Is this arbitrary? No. It is no more arbitrary than the Creation itself.

God's grace is God's desire to do what God does. It is not driven by anyone or anything. It comes from within the Godhead, to Create out of love. Cain's sacrifice is not received by God. There is no explanation for it. He just doesn't receive God's favor. Abel's sacrifice is deemed acceptable to God. Does God give a reason? No. Cain had not done anything evil in sacrificing to God (God had not laid down a set of rules for sacrifice), nor had Abel followed any prescribed rule for sacrifice (unless you want to retroactively apply the law of Moses to them). And if you will notice, God's favor for Abel does not save Abel from destruction. Abel's name is "fleeting," because that is exactly what Abel is as a Character in the story. What is amazing is that the story of Cain and Abel is really a story of Cain, where God cares for the least favored child.

God's receiving of Abel's offering over Cain's tells us nothing about either one. Abel dies even though God had received his offering. And God does not give him justice by taking Cain's life; he once again exercises his grace and spares Cain. Why? At this point Cain deserves it, and Abel's blood is crying out for justice. But God shows mercy that the bloodshed might end. God's election is not about Cain or Abel; it is about God and God's desire for the Creation; God will not fail. God's will for the Creation will be accomplished.

In the same way God's election of Seth, Noah, Shem, Abram, Isaac, Jacob, and Benjamim is not about who they themselves will become (Benjamin as a tribe is nearly destroyed by unfaithfulness even as God has elected this tribe for God's purposes with David). God's election is about God, who will be faithful to God's promise, to God's act of Creation; nothing will prevail against God (not even God's elect). The election of Israel is an archetype of the Creation. If God is faithful to Israel than the world will once again know that God is God. If God is not faithful to this promise he has given to Israel, than the world will know that he is not God. If God forsakes Israel, than we can never know of God's faithfulness to us (for a promise that God gives is not sure). But if God fulfills his promise to Israel (even when Israel has put in danger this promise) than God is truly God over all.

God's election is not about humanity. God's election is about God. When Abram receives the promise, God is not telling us about Abram. When God finally comes through with his promise in giving Abraham and Sarah a child, Abraham's faithfulness is still in question. God has walked through the cut halves of the animals (has "cut a deal") in the covenental sacrifice and Abram has yet to walk through. God's election is not about the faith of Abraham. Abraham's response will be his own.

Election is about the faithfulness of God to his people. When God elects someone, God is faithful to them to the end. Here is the word of Paul concerning rebellious Israel: "So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, 'Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.' 'And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.' As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have not received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all."

"O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable are his ways! 'For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?' 'Or who has given a gift to him, to receive a gift in return?' For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen."

God's election is about God's mercy to all. God is and will be patient to the end of the age. But the beginning and the end (the culmination, the directional force) are set so that in this time there might be patience and mercy for all. And the only way in which we know this truth is that God has elected a people, and God will be faithful to that people unto the end. And because of God's election of that people, we who are not a part of them can also be saved.

Peace,
Michael
 

godrulz

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billygoat said:
No, your theology that teaches that God picks people for eternal punishment with no chance at salvation is what is horrible. Not to mention that He is responsible for suffering, torture, and genocide. Sorry, but you really ought to wake up and start thinking through your ideas..


Even Calvin said that double predestination is a horrible doctrine, yet He believed it (it contradicts God's self-revelation and character making His love limited and arbitrary).
 

godrulz

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We can know that a plane will go from California to New Year. This is 'predestined' by the airline. The individuals that eventually board the plane freely chose to buy a ticket. They may or may not fly depending on illness, injury, fear, change of plans/circumstances, etc. The plane will corporately reach its destination. Only those who freely get on board will fly to the destination. Regardless of who does or does not buy a ticket, the plane still will fulfill the destiny. All those who freely chose to become part of the trip join the 'elect'. Those who do not buy into it or board are not part of the corporate elect. Those who believe in Jesus become part of the elect. Those who reject Him, remain outside of the elect. God does not predestine individuals to be non-elect. Whosoever will may come. When they come, they become part of the corporate elect. There is no need to know or predestine individuals. It is the plane, not the passengers, that are 'elected' or foreknown.
 

billygoat

How did I get such great kids??
LIFETIME MEMBER
:dizzy:
seekinganswers said:
This sounds like a cop-out to me.


The cop-out is that I gave you six or eight Bible verses, and tied them all together systematically, and you ignored them all. You ignore God's word at your peril.

Yoiu sound like you like your own (human) wisdom a lot more than you like listening to GOD. That is not only foolish, it's dangerous. :dizzy:
 

seekinganswers

New member
godrulz said:
We can know that a plane will go from California to New Year. This is 'predestined' by the airline. The individuals that eventually board the plane freely chose to buy a ticket. They may or may not fly depending on illness, injury, fear, change of plans/circumstances, etc. The plane will corporately reach its destination. Only those who freely get on board will fly to the destination. Regardless of who does or does not buy a ticket, the plane still will fulfill the destiny. All those who freely chose to become part of the trip join the 'elect'. Those who do not buy into it or board are not part of the corporate elect. Those who believe in Jesus become part of the elect. Those who reject Him, remain outside of the elect. God does not predestine individuals to be non-elect. Whosoever will may come. When they come, they become part of the corporate elect. There is no need to know or predestine individuals. It is the plane, not the passengers, that are 'elected' or foreknown.

Tell this to the men and women whose plane ended up in a building on the New York skyline a fateful Sept. 11 morning.

When Paul is talking about Israel in chapter 9 of Romans, he is speaking of the Israel that has rejected Christ. And there he states very clearly that election is for Israel, and mercy was shown to the Gentiles. The election of even those whom God has "hardened" is still secure as far as Paul is concerned (though it is a mystery how it will come about). Election is not a vague grouping of possible people. Election has to do with blood for Paul. God's election for Israel comes through the descendants. So the hardening of Israel is not to the loss of their election. They are hardened for the sake of the Gentiles.

Now we might ask how is Israel hardened yet still elect? That is what drives me to the conclusion that election is not about people or vague groupings; election is about God. The God who elects a particular people will be faithful to that people unto the end of the age. Election is about God's faithfulness, it is not about us or the decisions we make.

Peace,
Michael
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
The Incidental God of Open Theism

The Incidental God of Open Theism

The Incidental God of Open Theism

Question: What is Open Theism's raison d'etre?

Answer: To secure for themselves freedom from God, total autonomy and final authority.

How do they set about to accomplish this? The steps are as follow:
(1) Under the guise of "freeing" God from any association with evil, the Open Theist strips God of His transcendent attributes, i.e. His omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, impassibility and immutability;
(2) Under the guise of extolling God's hatred of evil, the Open Theist over-emphasizes God's imminent attributes, i.e. that He is living, loving, good, personal and relational;
(3) Under the guise of affirming justice, and all the while ignoring its true definition, the Open Theist makes man completely and totally autonomous by insisting that man's will must have libertarian freedom, otherwise God could not justly hold them accountable;
(4) Under the guise of affirming genuine love, and all the while ignoring its true definition, the Open Theist makes man the final authority by insisting that man must choose for himself whether or not God will save him.

What methods are used by the Open Theist to accomplish this?
(1) To sit in judgment of God by seizing upon apparent contradictions in the Bible, and explain them by declaring God's ignorance;
(2) To sit in judgment of God by seizing upon apparent contradictions in the Bible, and explain them by declaring God's lack of foresight;
(3) To sit in judgment of God by seizing upon finite and figurative descriptions of God as changing and emoting, and to explain them by declaring God's ignorance and lack of foresight.

This is what Knight does, just like every other Open Theist I've encountered over the past eleven years. He takes a couple passages of scripture that seem to contradict, and eisegetically uses them as prooftext for his false theology. Does he bother to study them out to see what the verses really mean? No, there's not reason to. It says what it says. Nevermind that the word "author" was added by the translators (as any first-year Bible student who understands the AV's typographic conventions will immediately recognize). If the verse seems to support his view, there's no reason to check it. Instead he jumps on the apparent contradiction and declares: See! See! Either God is less than God, or else the Bible contradicts itself. And since the latter cannot be true, the former must be.

Such is the mission and purpose of Open Theism. If a passage seems to say that God is fickle, don't even consider that it might be a figure of speech intended to emphasize rich, poignant, and wonderfully important insights that the original audience would have readily understood. Use it to prove that God is fickle. If a passage seems to say that God is too dumb to see something coming (i.e. is surprised by something), don't even consider that it might be a figure of speech intended to emphasize rich, poignant, and wonderfully important insights that the original audience would have readily understood. Instead, use it to prove that God is a dimwit. If a passage seems to say that God is ignorant, don't even consider that it might be a figure of speech intended to emphasize rich, poignant, and wonderfully important insights that the original audience would have readily understood. Use it to prove that God is ignorant. And so on, ad nauseum.

Here's the diffierence in approaches to such passages:
The Bible student who believes in the Infinitude of God sees these descriptions in the Bible and concludes, "God cannot be fickle, dimwitted or ignorant, therefore these must be figures of speech conveying something even more emphatic and important than would appear on the surface; I'd better study this out."

The Unsettled Incidental Theist sees these descriptions and jumps immediately to the conclusion that God is less than God, just as Knight has done regarding the "author of confusion" passage. Notice all the hoops that Knight must jump through to make sense of a passage that makes perfect sense according to the careful Bible student, sans hoop-jumping.

Knight said:
Yet from your perspective.... (the settled view) you must in fact believe that God authors confusion in every detail.

Settled view claim: Everything authored by God, yes.
God's claim: I am not the author of confusion

Clearly that's a legitimate objection to the settled view.

Is God the author of confusion or not?
Yes. God is the author of everything. God is infinite, unbounded, supreme. Nothing is greater than God; God is not subordinate to anything, not time, not man, not man's judgment, not man's will. Yet the Open Theist will readily and eagerly seize upon any verse they can twist to make God subordinate to all of these. And since God's attributes of being "good, personal, living, relational and loving" take priority over everything else, then He really can't do anything, which is what has been demonstrated abundantly in this thread, abundantly evident in the inability of any Open Theist to tell me one thing that God actually, actively is doing in their lives on a daily basis. What is God actively doing in your life right this moment? The Open (Incidental) Theist has no answer.

What are the results of Open Theist theology?
(1) God is reduced to an incidental being who does not really, actually, actively DO anything;
(2) Man is exalted to a level of total autonomy and final authority on all matters related his own life and eternal state.

I began this post by asking "What is the Open Theist's raison d'etre?" And as I stated at the beginning, the answer "To secure for themselves freedom from God, total autonomy and final authority." This should sound familiar, because the sin of seeking autonomous authority, the sin of Adam, is (almost) as old as time itself.

What is the conclusion concerning Open Theism?
Open Theists have succeeded in created a God in their own image and have thereby committed the sin of Adam. They have sought to independently, on their own will, on their own judgment, authority and autonomy, to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that is, to acquire autonomous knowledge and judgment apart from God. Such a theology is powerful and compelling to the innate rebellion and sinful nature of man. This is the Broad Road, appealing to the basest level of sinful humanity. Open Theism impugns and denigrates God, thereby pulling Him down. Open Theism exalts man's freedom and autonomy from God, thereby giving man the final authority of all matters concerning his own life and eternal state. Open Theism is nothing new. It started in the Garden of Eden, and has existed in one form or another ever since. Its goal is to tear God down and to build man up, to make God less than God and to make man more than man. It is humanism with a Luciferian impetus. With man as the final authority, God has become incidental.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul My judgment? wilt thou condemn Me, that thou mayest be righteous?
 

Balder

New member
Hilston said:
If the verse seems to support his view, there's no reason to check it. Instead he jumps on the apparent contradiction and declares: See! See! Either God is less than God, or else the Bible contradicts itself. And since the latter cannot be true, the former must be.
As the Bible is a book written by human beings, it most certainly could contradict itself in places. You could say that all inerrantists, whether Open Theists or Settled Viewers, declare men the ultimate authority, by turning human-penned documents into something absolute and unquestionable.
 

sentientsynth

New member
Balder said:
As the Bible is a book written by human beings, it most certainly could contradict itself in places. You could say that all inerrantists, whether Open Theists or Settled Viewers, declare men the ultimate authority, by turning human-penned documents into something absolute and unquestionable.

Balder, Balder, Balder...when will you ever learn?

Besides, didn't you realize that this is forum is only for those who hold that scripture is God-breathed?


Please take your :spam: elsewhere.

Thanks.
 
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