ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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Did you say "pearls"? Aren't pearls viewed biblically as something of value? How in the world can you consider the Open View's notion of God as something of value? Here we have a view that describes God as living, loving, relational, good and personal, yet every effort to find out what that exactly means in the daily life of an Unsettled Theist is met with obfuscation.deardelmar said:
The lurkers are no doubt disappointed.
Oink. Oink.
sentientsynth
New member
Hey Balder,
If I were in this situation, I would conclude that my son was unable to make rational choices concerning his own safety and would therefore take whatever measures necessary to stop him.
I've been in similar situations. For instance, about two weeks ago a friend of mine called me needing advice. His brother is a recovering alcoholic who is taking medication to alleviate his psychotic symptoms. Though the recovering alcoholic ran out of his medication, which can have disastrous permanent side-affects, from what I understand, he told his brother that he didn't want to go to the emergency room for help. Calling me for advice, I told him that his brother was not in a position to make decisions for himself and it was his responsibility to take his brother to the hospital.
Truly,
SS
Balder said:
If I were in this situation, I would conclude that my son was unable to make rational choices concerning his own safety and would therefore take whatever measures necessary to stop him.
I've been in similar situations. For instance, about two weeks ago a friend of mine called me needing advice. His brother is a recovering alcoholic who is taking medication to alleviate his psychotic symptoms. Though the recovering alcoholic ran out of his medication, which can have disastrous permanent side-affects, from what I understand, he told his brother that he didn't want to go to the emergency room for help. Calling me for advice, I told him that his brother was not in a position to make decisions for himself and it was his responsibility to take his brother to the hospital.
Truly,
SS
Catatumba
New member
How current are you on Southern Baptists?ChristisKing said:
Do you remember that they did not "recognize" afro- americans or any other kind of africans as legitimate "christians" until about four or five years ago.
And yes the Hebrew God is not only omni sapient but also omni present.
God is the wholeness of the I AM and the totality of ALL REASON. :idea:
Philetus
New member
Originally Posted by Hilston, (it doesn’t matter which one.)
Jim, I am thinking about those who may read this, as well as the people who have been turned away from the God of scripture (the Father of Jesus Christ) by your view that has wrongly convinced them that God doesn’t care about them in the least. And Jim, I am embarrassed. I am embarrassed for you and by your view which frustrates the grace of God and God given ability to hear and believe the Gospel: the truth about God.
Even when it is evident that the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the drawing power of Christ and the Father is at work, people who express great need and desire to cry out to Him for help are reluctant because they are more convinced that God has caused them to be the way they are or is utterly indifferent to their situation. Believing lies about God is so easy in a fallen world. Letting go of the lie we have held onto for so long is perhaps the hardest thing we humans have to do. That is why God does all He can to help them surrender.
You keep asking, ‘how does God do that?’ It is just too big for you, Jim. It isn’t a matter of understanding first and then making an intellectual decision. Trusting God is a matter of faith. That’s not a cop-out that Open Theist invented to dumb down an understanding of scripture. That is the Gospel, the truth about both God and man. I don’t know HOW God does His part, I just know that God does. How ranks up there with why. Go figure. The Book, the Bible since you missed that one earlier, is full of clues as to how and why. Don’t dismiss any of its clues or you will end up with a lopsided view of God, yourself and the future.)
The greatest struggle I encounter in people is usually not in believing in the power of God to save and help people, but that the ‘whosoever will’ aspect of the invitation actually means and includes them. I used to think that the biggest stumbling block to overcome in sharing the Good News with people was the destructive nature of sin. I do not in anyway minimize the reality of sin, but neither do I over emphasize it. I don’t even think of the people I work with in the alleys as ‘unbelievers’ like I once did. They believe in God! They just believe the wrong things about God. They think that God won’t hear them or respond to their need. They have been told so many times that the hardship, suffering and losses they have endured are ‘God’s will’ --- they have actually come to believe it and are mad as hell at God. And if what you say about God is true, I don’t blame them.
Where in the world did they get such a notion about God? In Romans, the apostle Paul, talks about suppressing the truth about God and tracking that line of thinking ‘to its logical conclusions’ (as you are fond of saying about OVT). Where indeed.
Oink, Oink????
Jim it is not the Open View that makes the truth about God obscure and confusing to the lurkers. You continue to misstate the view and twist the words of God’s witnesses to your own abolition. If such a ‘theology’ as Open View Theism is so illogical that a man of your intelligence and educational accomplishments can not figure it out, why do you think it poses any threat at all? You shouldn’t waste your time on such trifling matters.
If on the other hand, it is as evil as you say it is, then you need to get serious and stop all of the childish name calling and explain your view in a childlike way so we ‘Unsettled Viewers’ and ‘lurkers’ can understand you. But then in your view you have no real influence with God because it is God who authored the lie about Himself in the first place to frustrate and confuse the lurkers and is using the ‘damned’ open viewers to get ‘er done. No wonder you sound so angry and attempt to hide it in verbal abuse.
Jim, you lack faith!
Most people out there in the alleys know the invitation by heart and actually want to cry out to God for help. Their greatest reluctance in doing so is in actually believing that God has so determined their existence in such meticulous detail that they are convinced it is futile. Your view of God has people so misinformed about God that it is nearly impossible for them to ask God for anything, let alone salvation. The deterministic view is the greatest and most ubiquitous hindrance to the simple message of salvation in Christ. There is no message more powerful than the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. Nothing compares to it in power and influence in changing the lives of men and women and reflecting the glory of the loving God in whose image they were created. Noting is more powerful and nothing is as simple; so straightforward and easy a child can receive it.
I was tempted to go the route of ‘casting pearls’ and it does apply, but not in a negative way as is so often assumed. This is too important for me. You have made it so by making it personal. Jim, you want a pearl from my pocket. Nothing would give me greater joy and satisfaction than to sit with you face to face and share what I have experience so many times in such diverse ways. I have no reluctance at all to pray and ask God to do a ‘God-thing’ in your life. But, the pearl you seek is one only God can give you. It is the pearl freely given in response to the least evident amount of faith you can muster. You don’t really want just an answer to your question. You are looking for proof in a loving, caring and responsive God you don’t believe in. God has already proven Himself in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. You don’t need proof; you need help believing.
More mindless mystical drivel from the heart
Hee, Haw. Hee Haw.
Philetus
Jim, I am thinking about those who may read this, as well as the people who have been turned away from the God of scripture (the Father of Jesus Christ) by your view that has wrongly convinced them that God doesn’t care about them in the least. And Jim, I am embarrassed. I am embarrassed for you and by your view which frustrates the grace of God and God given ability to hear and believe the Gospel: the truth about God.
Even when it is evident that the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the drawing power of Christ and the Father is at work, people who express great need and desire to cry out to Him for help are reluctant because they are more convinced that God has caused them to be the way they are or is utterly indifferent to their situation. Believing lies about God is so easy in a fallen world. Letting go of the lie we have held onto for so long is perhaps the hardest thing we humans have to do. That is why God does all He can to help them surrender.
You keep asking, ‘how does God do that?’ It is just too big for you, Jim. It isn’t a matter of understanding first and then making an intellectual decision. Trusting God is a matter of faith. That’s not a cop-out that Open Theist invented to dumb down an understanding of scripture. That is the Gospel, the truth about both God and man. I don’t know HOW God does His part, I just know that God does. How ranks up there with why. Go figure. The Book, the Bible since you missed that one earlier, is full of clues as to how and why. Don’t dismiss any of its clues or you will end up with a lopsided view of God, yourself and the future.)
The greatest struggle I encounter in people is usually not in believing in the power of God to save and help people, but that the ‘whosoever will’ aspect of the invitation actually means and includes them. I used to think that the biggest stumbling block to overcome in sharing the Good News with people was the destructive nature of sin. I do not in anyway minimize the reality of sin, but neither do I over emphasize it. I don’t even think of the people I work with in the alleys as ‘unbelievers’ like I once did. They believe in God! They just believe the wrong things about God. They think that God won’t hear them or respond to their need. They have been told so many times that the hardship, suffering and losses they have endured are ‘God’s will’ --- they have actually come to believe it and are mad as hell at God. And if what you say about God is true, I don’t blame them.
Where in the world did they get such a notion about God? In Romans, the apostle Paul, talks about suppressing the truth about God and tracking that line of thinking ‘to its logical conclusions’ (as you are fond of saying about OVT). Where indeed.
Oink, Oink????
Jim it is not the Open View that makes the truth about God obscure and confusing to the lurkers. You continue to misstate the view and twist the words of God’s witnesses to your own abolition. If such a ‘theology’ as Open View Theism is so illogical that a man of your intelligence and educational accomplishments can not figure it out, why do you think it poses any threat at all? You shouldn’t waste your time on such trifling matters.
If on the other hand, it is as evil as you say it is, then you need to get serious and stop all of the childish name calling and explain your view in a childlike way so we ‘Unsettled Viewers’ and ‘lurkers’ can understand you. But then in your view you have no real influence with God because it is God who authored the lie about Himself in the first place to frustrate and confuse the lurkers and is using the ‘damned’ open viewers to get ‘er done. No wonder you sound so angry and attempt to hide it in verbal abuse.
Jim, you lack faith!
Most people out there in the alleys know the invitation by heart and actually want to cry out to God for help. Their greatest reluctance in doing so is in actually believing that God has so determined their existence in such meticulous detail that they are convinced it is futile. Your view of God has people so misinformed about God that it is nearly impossible for them to ask God for anything, let alone salvation. The deterministic view is the greatest and most ubiquitous hindrance to the simple message of salvation in Christ. There is no message more powerful than the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. Nothing compares to it in power and influence in changing the lives of men and women and reflecting the glory of the loving God in whose image they were created. Noting is more powerful and nothing is as simple; so straightforward and easy a child can receive it.
I was tempted to go the route of ‘casting pearls’ and it does apply, but not in a negative way as is so often assumed. This is too important for me. You have made it so by making it personal. Jim, you want a pearl from my pocket. Nothing would give me greater joy and satisfaction than to sit with you face to face and share what I have experience so many times in such diverse ways. I have no reluctance at all to pray and ask God to do a ‘God-thing’ in your life. But, the pearl you seek is one only God can give you. It is the pearl freely given in response to the least evident amount of faith you can muster. You don’t really want just an answer to your question. You are looking for proof in a loving, caring and responsive God you don’t believe in. God has already proven Himself in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. You don’t need proof; you need help believing.
More mindless mystical drivel from the heart
Hee, Haw. Hee Haw.
Philetus
seekinganswers
New member
Bob Hill said:
This is an aweful view of the scriptures. You have completely left out election altogether. When God makes a promise, God can change God's mind when things don't go well. So now Israel is out, and we are in. The only question is how long until God gets fed up with us?
Here's the rub of it. Does election tell us more about ourselves or does it tell us about God? It is my assertion that election is about God and not about those whom God has elected. The Calvinists have got it all wrong because they think election is about us when in fact election is about God. And you, Bob, have completely rejected election language and turned God into one who just acts on a whim. You are no better, for you ignore the very language that infiltrates the scriptures in so many places. The answer to the Calvinists is not to say that election is nonexistant (that's just a stupid assertion). You will find election language throughout the scriptures, both within the Old Testament and the New. You will even here the words coming from the mouth of Christ.
So I want to ask you something concerning your horrid interpretation of scripture. Are you at all familiar with the passage, "God chastises those whom God loves"? You are obviously reading this passage cut off from the prophets, which is not how it is presented to us (at least if you adhere to the canon of scripture). The prophets declare that God's handing Israel over to exhile has nothing to do with God "changing God's own mind." God sends Israel into exhile precisely because they are God's elect people, and God will have them as God's own people whether they are faithful or not. So, if they are faithful, the world will know that they are God's people because they will be blessed. In the same way, the world will know that they are God's people if they are unfaithful, for they will be chastized. Either way they are God's people.
And this is the amazing thing. Election tells us nothing about how we will respond to that election (election is not about us). Election is about what God does and about God's own nature. In otherwords, God will be faithful to the end. God is not easily disuaded from God's own will. Changing our mind is how we live as people who don't know what faithfulness is about, in a world filled with advertisement that constantly is swaying us in one direction or the other, toying with us as if we were the grass in the wind. It is not until Christ comes on the scene and demonstrates faithfulness to us even unto death on a cross that we understand what it means for us to be faithful. God's election is about God's faithfulness to Israel, so that God will never forsake God's own people. A changing God is not a good foundation. But a God who is faithful to the end, a God who is patient with us, this is the God who is loving, and in whom we can truly be free (not determined).
It is your kind of interpretations of the scriptures that I heard over and over again within the process theology of my prof in undergrad, and I will have nothing to do with it. It is garbage, chaff that will be good for nothing but burning. The house you build on the foundation of Christ and the apostles will not survive the flames (I have already seen the failure).
Peace,
Michael
That's the difference between you and me Jim. You're playing games and I am not. Your "point" is indeed entirely unfalsifiable. And of course you saw it coming! You and I have had this exact same conversation several times before with the exact same results. No matter what I (or anyone else) offer you, it isn't good enough. Nothing will ever be good enough because nothing can be good enough. Your position is intentionally unfalsifiable so that you are then able to parade around the fact that no one is able to answer your question in a manner that is satisfactory (satisfactory to you that is)! It's a tactic that is as old as debate itself. Your problem is that I've finally caught on to the game you are playing and refuse to add any more fuel to your fire. If Philetus' posts had not been as inspiring as they are, I would have regretted having not figured it out in time to save him the trouble of running around this particular barn with you. It has, however, turned out for the best from my perspective and I trust that it has done so, at least in part, because of God's involvement.Hilston said:
Then tell us Jim!
Besides physically holding all the atoms together like some wacky stone mason who’s too stupid to use mortar, and actively (and ever so lovingly) making certain that those who are supposed to be starving to death don't get any food, what is God doing these days? I'd really like to know. Please enlighten us all.
Resting in Him,
Clete
P.S. For those of you who are keeping count: Including the quotation of Jim, the word ‘unfalsifiable’ was used three times in this post.
Hilston-
Your personal vendetta is nothing more than seeking attention, wanting the masses to look at you, and pay attention to you, and laugh with you. But all you've accomplished is being laughed at. And I, for one, am done with you altogether.
Your personal vendetta is nothing more than seeking attention, wanting the masses to look at you, and pay attention to you, and laugh with you. But all you've accomplished is being laughed at. And I, for one, am done with you altogether.
Your ability to comprehend the basic syntax and semantics of language is atrocious. My view is that God is intimately and imminently involved in the affairs of this world and in the lives of individuals. I can demonstrate this biblically and experientially. I have asked repeatedly for examples and explanations from you Unsettled Theists, and none of you has been capable of producing.Philetus said:
Does God give everyone the ability to hear and believe the gospel?Philetus said:
Straw man, Philetus. Take this complaint somewhere else. It doesn't apply here.Philetus said:
More specifically, believing in a God who is less than God, less than omnipotent, less than omnipresent, less than omniscient, fickle, subject to mood swings, and ignorant of the future is so easy for people who don't like, or are embarrassed by the God of scripture.Philetus said:
If he does all he can, of what use is your prayer? What are going to ask him to do? More than he already is? If he is doing all he can, your prayer is futile, impotent, empty and pointless.Philetus said:
On the contrary, Ms. Dixon, God gave His word to be understood. Your pseudo-spiritual contra-intellectual warm-and-fuzzy platitudes are anti-biblical, Philetus. Why don't you put the pages of your Bible on a sandwich and eat it. At least then you'll get the benefit of fiber in your diet.Philetus said:
I see; so the atheists are right when they say faith is contrary to reason.Philetus said:
No, on the contrary, we are commanded by scripture to have a detailed knowledge, epignosis, a mastery of the Word of God. His Word addresses all matters of faith by way of the intellect, through the faculties of the mind, not through some esoteric mystical voodoo hexology.Philetus said:
What is His part? Tell me exactly what you're talking about as "His part."Philetus said:
What's with all this "how" stuff? You mean the "how" involves The Book? How dare you frustrate the grace of God with all your Bible talk. Just rely on faith. Forget The Book. Faith is all you need.Philetus said:
Go back and read what I've written, Philetus. Nowhere do you find me describing God the way you've accused me of. I've been describing the Open View God, and if that is the description you're having a problem with, I don't blame you. You should have a problem with it.Philetus said:
Then let's hear it. Let the lurkers know that the God of OVT is living, loving, good, personal and relational and tell them how God actively expressed these attributes to you today. Be specific, because a lot is riding on this. Let the lurkers know that God actually cares about them and what He will do in their lives today.Philetus said:
It's figured out, Philetus. Here is what has happened, in case you're not aware: Open Theists are accustomed to bullying people into silence and frustration. They are aggressive in their tactics and relentless in their criticisms of Settled View theologies. However, Open Theists are not accustomed to having to eat their own medicine and having their view eviscerated right before their eyes. The only response the Open Theist can offer is a non-answer. How many people have chimed in on this thread, and not one Open Theist has been able to answer very basic questions about prayer and what God actually actively does in their daily lives. I can answer these questions, coherently and consistent with scripture. The Open Theist is silent, except to obscure and protest the questions themselves.Philetus said:
You seem to understand me just fine. If there's anything you're not clear about, feel free to ask.Philetus said:
From where did you pull that, Houdini? That is not my view.Philetus said:
I'm quite happy, thank you. I'm also quite good-looking. But I'm not very smart. Still working on that.Philetus said:
That's exactly what Raul from the Psychic Friends Network told me! Do you know him?Philetus said:
And then Open Theist comes along to tell them that God is really isn't in control. If they knew enough to ask, they would also find out that the OVT God is really impotent and can't lift a finger to help them.Philetus said:
You're right. All the people I've told about God and all the people in my church don't trust God or ask Him for anything, they don't ever pray and are lost. They just come to church for the social interaction and coffee.Philetus said:
Did you really mean to write that? Don't you really mean to say, "There is no message more powerful than the Gospel of possible salvation if you grab the rope?"Philetus said:
Refrigerator magnet stuff. You don't know what you're talking about. Power and influence? From a God who can't lift a finger to save anyone? Please.Philetus said:
Please tell me what you're praying for, and I will report back to let you know whether you made enough noise to get God's attention.Philetus said:
Oh, so it's all up to me, right? God's work is NOT sufficient after all, since I have to add my own effort to the mix.Philetus said:
Give me one example of God's actively expressed love in your life today. I can give one. Can you? Give me one example of God's actively expressed care in your life today. Can you give one? I can. Can you give one example of God being responsive in your life today? I can give one. Can you? All the blather of Open Theist rhetoric is a Hollywood Backlot facade. It looks attractive to the existentialist/humanist who wants a God who doesn't embarrass them as much as the God portrayed in scripture. But when you get behind it, you see that it's all empty. There's no substance. There's no reality. It's all refrigerator magnet fluff. Philetus is a prime example. And Clete's eagerness to award his famous anti-Hilston Jihad Post-Of-The-Day only further demonstrates the inanity and insidious poison that is Open Theism.Philetus said:
You hit the nail on the head. I'm such a loser without a life that TOL is all I have to make me feel good about myself. Look at how many posts I have. I obviously have nothing else to do except post on TOL in the hope that someone will pay attention to me. Thanks for your contribution to that cause.Lighthouse said:
Darn. I sure didn't expect people to laugh AT me. I was hoping everyone would like me and want to be my friend. Thanks for telling me the truth, Brandon. You're a true friend.Lighthouse said:
You mean until the next time you Instant Message me to ask me what I think of Sozo's theology, as if you didn't already agree with his theology.Lighthouse said:
P.S.
I removed you from my IM. Now I'm done.
I removed you from my IM. Now I'm done.
deardelmar said:
God exercises "meticulous control" over every human event? Over every theft, murder, rape... over every unspeakable act that happened and will ever happen in every gay bathhouse, over every man who ever destroyed his family by cheating on his wife? God planned every evil thing that ever happened so that some good could come of it? The determinist God is mentally ill. The God of the Bible is righteous!Hilston said:
sentientsynth
New member
dealdelmar said:
I think that there are indeed instances when tough love is appropriate. I'm not a parent...yet. But I plan on allowing my children to learn some lessons the hard way when they won't accept my instruction. Allowing my child to "lay in his own bed" will, of course, have to come on a case-by-case basis, weighing as many of the factors as I can and determining whether or not "tough love" is appropriate in such a case. I'm thankful to God that He's given me a wise wife with whom I can reason and who will be a faithful helpmate in such matters. Confering with her about this, she agrees with me in both cases: that there will be "tough love" and that it is appropriate only in certain situations. What those situations are....well...I guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
SS
seekinganswers
New member
I'm curious, how do the Open Theists deal with "election" language in the scriptures? Is Bob's view of God's wavering character (his changing mind) the only take on it? As you could tell, I was not happy with Bob's approach to the scriptures. From my point of view, Bob is ignoring the election language that is present throughout the scriptures. Israel is God's elect people from Abram all the way to Paul (and even to Revelation), and everyone in between affirms this.
You have heard how I take that election language (meaning when God elects it has nothing to do with the ones whom God elects but tells us about God, that God is faithful to the end). How does an Open Theist deal with God's election?
Peace,
Michael
You have heard how I take that election language (meaning when God elects it has nothing to do with the ones whom God elects but tells us about God, that God is faithful to the end). How does an Open Theist deal with God's election?
Peace,
Michael
Philetus
New member
Yes. “Even when it is evident that the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the drawing power of Christ and the Father is at work, people who express great need and desire to cry out to Him for help are reluctant because they are more convinced that God has caused them to be the way they are or is utterly indifferent to their situation,” does apply here.
You have a good head on you Jim. But, even loving God with all your head isn’t enough.
As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
There you go again, putting words where they don’t belong.
You make my point about twisting and disdtorting both the scripture and the views of others. You describe neither God nor the Open View accurately.
You describe your imagined enemy the way you need to in order to justify your lopsided and distorted view of God. Most of your rants are against statements never made or your retorts are perversions of a view that from all appearances must threaten you. I really am disapointed that you bring little else to the debate.
Some of it has been at least intertaining and fun.
Yes, he is my sister.
Your too smart for your own good sometimes.
Well, there is just one thing I’m still wondering about: is that you in your avatar? If it is then you are quite good looking, but you sister needs to shave. JUST KIDDING. Other than that, I think we are finished.
Anything else?
Philetus
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