ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.

wickwoman

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Back to the Subject at Hand

Back to the Subject at Hand

THE BIBLE and the HOMOSEXUAL

© 1992 by Dean Worbois

The Bible does not speak of gays. Nor does it speak of the earth orbiting the sun. Sexual identity was not a concept of biblical times.

It speaks of homosexual acts only when they are part of sacred prostitution, idolatry, promiscuity, seducing children, rape, or violating hospitality. It condemns all such acts, whether heterosexual, homosexual, or having nothing to do with sex.
Of the thousands and hundreds of words, pages, stories, laws, and commandments in the Bible, very few deal with homosexual acts. A little study of history reveals these references are fewer than we have come to believe.

The Sodom Story:

Probably no story in the Bible has been used more to persecute homosexuals than the story of Sodom. By the Middle Ages, Thomas Aquinas had come to see all disasters of any kind as God's wrath at homosexual sin. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, collapsing buildings, runaway horses, women falling into ditches - all these and more were understood to be expressions of God's displeasure at "the wickedness of Sodom."

Yet in Old Testament times we never find references to the destruction of Sodom being equated with homosexual acts. For these references we must look to the last centuries before Christ.
In the two centuries before Christ, the Hebrews became better acquainted with the Hellenistic world as they traveled, traded, and settled in Asia Minor, Greece and Rome. Heterosexual and homosexual acts were traditional expressions of fertility worship in the Hellenistic world. Having been raised under the Holiness Laws, the Hebrews found these practices offensive. Among the Hebrew's reaction to these worship practices we find the first texts equating homosexual acts with Sodom. There are also references to the iniquity of sexual acts between Hebrews and Gentiles ("your union shall be like unto Sodom and Gomorrah")
By 50 AD we find the first time the sin of Sodom is associated with homosexual acts in general. In the Quaest. et Salut. in Genesis IV.31-37, Philo interpreted the Genesis word yãdhà as "servile, lawless and unseemly pederasty." Around 96 AD, Josephus first used the term sodomy to mean homosexual acts. From Antiquities: "They hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices."

Since Old Testament times did not equate the Sodom story with homosexual acts, what was the crime of Sodom - a crime worth the destruction of five thriving, wealthy cities on the fertile plains?
The crime was pride. And it was inhospitality.

We have to remember the Hebrews were a nomad people in a dry, hostile environment. Weather and suspicious neighbors made hospitality a matter of survival. Being welcomed in a stranger's home or tent could mean the difference between life and death.

Throughout the Old Testament, Sodom is held up as a lesson in wickedness that deserves utter destruction for reasons other than homosexual acts. Examples: Ezekiel 16:49 - 50, "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good." Isaiah tells of lack of justice. Jeremiah emphasizes moral and ethical laxity. The Deuterocanonical books identify the sin as pride and inhospitality; in Wisdom 19:13-14, we read "...whereas the men of Sodom received not the strangers when they came among them." In Ecclesiasticus 16:8 the sin is recognized as pride: "He did not spare the people among whom Lot was living, whom he detested for their pride." In the New Testament, too, there is reference to Sodom and inhospitality: In Luke 10:10-13, Christ talks about cities that are inhospitable to his disciples. He warns: "...it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city." It's not until the very late books of 2 Peter (2:4) and Jude (6), that sex is considered a sin of Sodom. These books were written several generations after the deaths of the apostles and were talking about the transgression of the natural order of life when angelic and human beings have heterosexual relations - a major concern to the popular Stoic philosophy of the time.

Not only are there no references to homosexual acts when Scripture refers to Sodom, there are no references to Sodom when the Scriptures refer to homosexuality. There are several biblical passages we've come to understand as condemning homosexual acts. Not one of these gives Sodom as an example of the result of homosexual behavior. Considering how often Sodom was used as an example of the result of wicked behavior, it's apparent that biblical times did not see homosexual acts as the important lesson of the destruction of Sodom.

How did the lesson of Sodom become so identified with homosexual acts that the very word for one of those acts became Sodomy? The answer is in the Hebrew word: yãdhà.
Yãdhà has two meanings: "to know" and "engage in coitus." Of 943 times yãdhà is used in the Old Testament, only ten times is it used to mean sexual intercourse, and all of these are heterosexual coitus. The Old Testament uses the word shãkhabh to mean homosexual acts and bestiality.

Lot was a resident alien in Sodom. When Lot invited strangers into his home, the townspeople approached Lot and demanded "Bring them out unto us, that we may know them (yãdhà)." Judging from the biblical references we've just discussed, it seems the townspeople were asking to get to know the credentials and intentions of strangers in their city.
The absolute sacredness of a guest was a principle well known to Lot. Lot also understood the way crowds give in to hostile acts against outsiders (see Judges 19:1- 21:25 for a similar tale of hostility to strangers.) So he protected his guests and refused to hand them over to the crowd. When the crowd insisted, he offered his two daughters as the most expedient diversion for a hostile situation.

The Letters of Paul:

The New Testament has three main references to homosexual acts. These references are not found in the disciples' accounts of Christ's teachings. Rather they are found in the letters of an early convert. Paul sent these letters to early Christian communities: the Romans, the Corinthians, and to Timothy. Paul's philosophy, his reaction to foreign culture, and his understanding of Jewish history all influenced these letters.

The disciples were mostly simple fishermen. But Paul was highly educated, especially in philosophy. Stoicism was a popular philosophy in the first century AD and Paul was one of its avid teachers.

"Reason" was the soul of the Stoic world. God was seen as logos (reason) spread through the heavens. Nature was not instinct, but reason expressed in biology. To "live according to nature" (meaning reason) was to become united with the divine. Whatever distracted from living the reasonable life was evil: the passions of pleasure, pity, sorrow, desire, and love were irrational and, therefore, unnatural. Affectionate and sexual relationships were "unnatural" because they bred passions.
Some results of Christian Stoicism were: Monks separated themselves from society to achieve the ideal state of emotional indifference. The male became the soul (natural reason) of heterosexual relationships while the female became the body (unnatural passion). The Eve story became symbolic of temptation and lust. Females were seen as mutilated males, this "accident" often caused by warm winds blowing at the time of planting the seed. Christian philosophers declared that Christians entered marriage only for the reason of having children. St. Augustine came to identify any sexual pleasure or attraction as sinful passion, saying the "normal exercise of the will" would have the husband lie calmly on his wife and procreation would occur without disturbing the hymen; the semen would enter through it the same way menstrual blood flows from a virgin .

This is the same Stoicism Paul was teaching when he wrote letters to early Christian communities. Culturally, Paul was raised a conservative Jew in Palestine. The society he had been raised in was shaped by the Holiness Laws and he did not understand much of the worship of the Hellenists. When he traveled to Asia Minor, Greece and Rome as a Christian, he reacted to the foreign cultures with shock and contempt.

Paul's understanding of Jewish history was shaped by the teachings of Hebrews who themselves were reacting to Hellenistic society. As we've seen when considering the Sodom story, about 300 years before Paul's letters the Hebrews were giving new meaning to traditional stories. Paul took these new meanings as tradition.

Paul's letters consider homosexual acts to be the result of idolatry, reasoning that only when abandoning the true god for idol worship could a person abandon what Paul considered sexual "nature." His main concern was idolatry, not the sexual acts.

Considering Paul's Stoic philosophy, his shock at Gentile worship practices, and his understanding of idolatry, it's surprising he condemned homosexual acts in so few of his many letters to Christian communities - and only in brief passages.
Even then, Paul's use of Greek makes his messages very confusing. In fact, one test of whether a passage was truly written by Paul is whether the Greek is used in confusing ways.
In 1 Corinthians 6:9, he used malakoi, which literally means "soft" and was used in moral contexts for "loose" and "lacking self control." In 1 Corinthians 6:9 and in 1 Timothy 1:10, he used arsenokoitai, which was the first time the plural noun had been used.

In Romans 1:26, Paul called homosexual activity para phusin. The English translation is usually: "against nature." But Paul's understanding of "nature" was based on Stoic philosophy, and is not the understanding we have today. To Stoics, "nature" was reason. Paul always associated the word "nature" with cultural heritage and religious teachings. In Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians he refers to Jews being Jews by nature, Gentiles being uncircumcised by nature, and all of us being children of wrath by nature. Paul saw nature as a condition of social training in 1 Corinthians, 11:14: "Does not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" When he uses para phusin, Paul seems to use a Stoic term based on "nature" in the place of the Old Testament word toevah. Toevah was the concept of what is not proper according to Jewish law and custom.

At the time of Paul's letters there were names for people who did homosexual acts (arrenomanes, kinaidos, paiderastes, paidophthoro, pallakos and others). Paul never used these words in his letters.

Scripture and Homosexuality:

Considering these cultural and historical facts, it's surprising Scripture has so few references to homosexual acts. What's not surprising is that these references always condemn homosexual behavior.

But Scripture never condemns homosexual behavior by itself. It is condemned when practicing idolatry or sacred prostitution. It is condemned when promoting promiscuity. It is condemned when forcing violent rape or seducing children. And it is condemned when violating a guests' right to dignity as a male.
Also, Scriptural references only speak of homosexual acts - not homosexual people. Not until the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (revised from the King James version in 1885) do we find references to homosexuals themselves. These occur in translating the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" in Paul's letters. Never is the issue of homosexual behavior between loving, homosexual partners addressed in Scripture. The reason is simple: biblical cultures did not have knowledge of homosexuality as a psychological identity. In biblical times homosexuality was known only by the acts people committed, not as a sexual personality. A person born heterosexual assumed homosexual acts to be something people did for dominance or in perversion of their inner identity.
 

Flipper

New member
Freak:

Hinduism offers a bleak view of reality, a lila , where Christianity offers peace, mercy, redemption through Jesus Christ


Well I don't give a literal interpretation of karma any credence because reincarnation (other than the repurposing of our atomic material through decay) not only is entirely unsupported by evidence, it also seems logically incoherent.

So I file it in the same place as I do the supernatural doctrines of Christianity.
 

wickwoman

New member
"I got this today," they say; "Tomorrow I shall get that. This wealth is mine, and that will be mine too. I have destroyed my enemies. I shall destroy others too! Am I not like God? I enjoy what I want. I am successful. I am powerful. I am rich and well-born. Who is equal to me? I will perform sacrifices and give gifts, and rejoice in my own generosity." This is how they go on, deluded by ignorance. Bound by their greed, and entangled in a web of delusion, whirled about by a fragmented mind, they fall into a dark hell.

-Bhagavad Gita 16:13-16
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by wickwoman
"I got this today," they say; "Tomorrow I shall get that. This wealth is mine, and that will be mine too. I have destroyed my enemies. I shall destroy others too! Am I not like God? I enjoy what I want. I am successful. I am powerful. I am rich and well-born. Who is equal to me? I will perform sacrifices and give gifts, and rejoice in my own generosity."

Is that the homosexual creed?
 

wickwoman

New member
Originally posted by Sozo


Is that the homosexual creed?

No, that is from the Bhagavad Gita which is often referred to as the Hindu gospel. Based on your response it was quite appropriate here.
 
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Sozo

New member
Originally posted by Flipper
sozo wrote:
You could possibly be the stupidest person posting on this site, and believe you me, the competition is extremely stiff.

"God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are"

My opinion of you is irrelevant, but God's isn't.

"Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."
 

o2bwise

New member
For Polycarp - Does God Hate The Lost

For Polycarp - Does God Hate The Lost

Hi Polycarpadvo,

Please excuse my lateness in responding. It has been a very turbulent and stressful week.

First, I am sorry I called you cold. Please accept my apology. (By the way, I believe I did so twice.) The monitor is a "cold" medium. The warmth that is in people's hearts often doesn't transmit through very well.

But, you do come accross a bit chili, Polycarp. Simple things like saying "Hi" or saying goodbye with a "God Bless You and Yours" and trying to add more warmth would come a long ways, I think.


Had I known this was going to turn into "What exactly is Hell?" I would have rephrased the question.

Well, I find it impossible not to get into details about hell in order to explain the basis for an answer to such a question, so while you intimate that you would prefer the conversation did not veer into that subject with some detail, I on the other hand, find that veering to be crucial.

In saying the following, please consider this point. I am applying reason, however the reason I am applying did not produce the view I have, it followed the view I came to have, a view I came to via ample study of the scriptures. I say this because I have shared reason with respect to the character of God and have been accused of coming to views based on reason rather than submission to the word of God.


Anihilation View
My understanding is that love is a drawing power, it does not, indeed cannot, compel. Philemon is a neat example of how love operates, yet for love's sake I rather appeal to you... Another example is where Christ uses the metaphor of a mother hen. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I wanted to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing! Here we see conflicting wills. The will of Jesus (and thus the will of God) and the will of some other. The locus of these conflicting wills is salvation itself. I wanted to save you, but you were not willing.

We all know that free will is able to stand in the way of God.

If one superimposes this with the anihilist view, I believe the following fits.

The lost are ultimately lost because their will thwarted God's will. God's hands are tied. He wants all to be with Him in the Kingdom, but some "willed" another course.

So, what does God do? Is what He does consistent with love? I believe it is.

For the sake of length, I will not go into an explanation, but I believe "hell" is the experience of the lost within the presence of God's love. Song of Solomon states that unquenchable fire is God's love. A verse in Isaiah asks who dwells in the everlasting burnings. The answer? The righteous dwell there. Jesus refers to lost cast into a furnace of fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. His very next remark? The righteous shine as the sun.

There is something about the revelation, to the universe, that the house built on the Rock survives the same storm which destroys the house built on the sand.

There is a crucial testimony there.

Love itself, unveiled, causes the lost to be consumed. For it reveals to the unrighteous their full immoral state and THAT is what destroys.

The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law.

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But, sin, that it might appear sin was producing death in me through what is good so that sin through the commandment, might become exceedingly sinful.


With this view, it can be reasoned that, as I said, God's hands are tied. Their lost state is an ache in His heart (consider again Christ's dialogue where He alluded to Himself as a mother hen). He cannot bear false witness. There comes a time when He simply causes the lost to see who they are, via the mirror that is the perfect law of liberty (that being an unveiled revelation of His character).


Eternal Conscious Torment View
One cannot even begin to broach the subject of God's fairness (justice) with this view. It cuts any such discussion at the knees.

The lost suffer pain for eternity and thus pain, sin, and sinners exist forever. Not only that, but a pocket of the universe is not God's Kingdom for His Kingdom is one of righteousness and there is still a locale wherein the very opposite of righteousness, that being evil, resides forever.

Why? Why choose to create intelligent beings in such a way that should they choose unrighteousness, they still must live, because they innately have life.

"He who has the Son HAS LIFE."


So let me do so now.

Will God love those who are seperated from Him for all eternity due to their not accepting Him while on Earth?

Yes.

You provided scripture which showed that God hates, but what you did not do is consider another possibility.

God's ways are not our ways.

For example, divine wrath is most thoroughly treated, in the scriptures, in Romans 1. It is not the same as human wrath. At least three times, it says that God gave them up. It doesn't have the flavor of someone like Zeus zapping thunderbolts, it more has the flavor of man initiating by his rebellion and God having His hands tied.

I suggest that all emotions, when applied to God, have an understanding not adequately defined by Webster, given Webster defines them as applied to humans.

We know this is true with love, realizing that the Greek writers used a little used term, agape, when applied to divine love. Still, as with Christ's conversation with Peter (Feed My sheep), Christ is referred with agape, Peter with eros.

I suggest those hate verses operate in a similar fashion. A fashion compatible with:

1. The anihilation view with the reason I attached to it (how compatible with God's character).

2. Christ forgiving the Jews as they are crucifying Him.

3. Christ aching in His heart as He refers to those whose rebellion to Him is complete, knowing there will be no repentence (mother hen text).

It is a mis-use of scripture to assign human hate to "divine hate" just as it would be with all other emotions, such as wrath.

Finally, this need not be taken to mean God is being deceptive. A line upon line, comparing spiritual with spiritual study provides ample evidence for the meaning of these terms, such as hate, when applied to God.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)
 
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wickwoman

New member
Dear O2bwise:

What do you think about the article with an alternative view of the scriptures on homosexuality I posted above?

Dear Sozo:

Would you like to address those also or would you like to continue hurling meaningless insults about homosexuals?
 

o2bwise

New member
Quick Reply

Quick Reply

Hi wickwoman,

How are ya?

Ummm, I am WAY behind! Note that I just now replied to Polycarp and an earlier reply to you awaits.

I read a portion of that post, very quickly, but I will read it in its entirety.

My impulsive take is that the article has a rather interesting assumption, in order to be valid. That assumption is that our omniscient God "decided" to be 100% SILENT with respect to His moral guidance where homosexuality is concerned.

Why would He do so?

Why not at the beginning would God throw in, "Sometimes man and woman will be one flesh, sometimes man and man, and sometimes woman and woman?"

The article seems to require that God would decide to be THAT silent all the while everytime explicit mention of homosexuality is made, it is made in a negative light.

So, the article requires utter silence AND the assumption that all negative statements about homosexuality are to be understood as compatible with the idea that God created certain people to be homosexual and desires and approves of such people to enjoy homosexual activity.

What are the odds of those two assumptions being true, wickwoman? Is the Bible really that incomplete a moral guide?

God Bless Ya...

Tony (o2)
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Sozo:

Would you like to address those also or would you like to continue hurling meaningless insults about homosexuals?

How can I take a biased view seriously, when the writer does not believe that Paul was influenced by Jesus (whom Paul claims influenced him), but was instead tainted by the Stoics?
 

Z Man

New member
Meaningless Arguments....

Meaningless Arguments....

Wickwoman and everyone else who is posting here,

This is ridiculous. Wickwoman, your niece is a homosexual; so what? I bet she's lied before too, or spoken hateful things to someone, or has stolen something - basically, she has sinned everyday in her life, guareented. We all have. I don't know if your niece was born gay or not, and personally, i don't care, nor does it matter. The point is, she was born a sinner, just like the rest of us.

Everyone of us in the world in the past, present, and future is born of a nature of sin. No one has to teach a child to be mean, talk-back to their parents, steal cookies from the cookie jar, argue and fight with siblings and friends, that's all natural behavior for a human. In fact, every parent spends thier whole parenthood teaching children how to behave; right from wrong. The point is, she, nor anyone else in the world, will ever go to hell for a sin they committed. People go to hell because our nature is corrupt. This gives us a very nasty, dirty, and disgusting image in the realm of God's perfect reality. We are not worthy to live there, so God has made a place for those who cannot attain perfection; Hell. But thank God we can attain perfection, through and by the blood of Jesus Christ, but that's another story.....

Those who don't hang out with homosexuals, accept them into their homes, church, whatever, are hypocrites. Homosexuality is a sin just like lying, cheating, stealing, whatever. No Christian is any better than a homosexual.
 
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Sozo

New member
Re: Meaningless Arguments....

Re: Meaningless Arguments....

Originally posted by Z Man
Those who don't hang out with homosexuals, accept them into their homes, church, whatever, are hypocrites. Homosexuality is a sin just like lying, cheating, stealing, whatever. No Christian is any better than a homosexual.

I agree with everything you said regarding homosexuality in relation to God, and the gospel.

So, do you think it should be criminalized like other sins, such as murder, stealing, etc?
 

okinrus

New member
Wickedwomen you must understand that there are people
in the Church who are celibrate. To be in heaven you
must hold christ more dear to you than anything else.
That is why heaven is hard to get to.
The church accepts homosexuals just as any sinners
but they must not partake in the eucharist unless
they fully repent and confess of it. By say that you are born this way you are admiting to the philosophy that murders are born that way, rapist are born that way etc. To say is bad but
when you practice it, it will become reality.

I'm much worse sinner than your niece. She is happy
now because she has a friend but what will happen when that friend will leave her? The more times she engages in this type
of behavior the harder it will be to repent of it.

As to the old testment notions of punishment. Read the
story of Jesus, the pharisees, and the adultress.
People will always be physically allured to different types of
sin. For example the blind will have a tough time
looking at pornography.
 

wickwoman

New member
Dear O2BWise:

I'm fine. Thank you for asking. How are you?

The Bible is silent about a lot of issues. It doesn't address the morality of artificial intelligence, human cloning, abortion, cross dressing, drug use, right to die, gardening, or wearing red to church on Sundays for that matter. It is not a complete moral handbook. It doesn't adress many problems and situations encountered in every day life. Human beings have felt free to decide what scriptures apply to the particular behaviors they find bothersome.

The point here is the logic in condemning a particular sexual behavior simply for it's "differentness." Now, you can cling to the argument of AIDS killing homo and hetero-sexuals alike, but let's get real, people were dying of syphillis hundreds of years ago.

My point here is simple, using logic only to evaluate the situation, which I must say is virtually impossible for many of those posting here, you will see that there really is no logical reason that homosexuality should be a sin. Just because some homo-phobes find it repulsive does not give me sufficient logical explanation as to why God would agree. In Bible times, people believed you could marry 12 year olds. That doesn't mean the Bible condones it. Just because people who lived in Bible times and contributed to the Bible found homosexuality repulsive, that doesn't mean that God does.

-WICKWOMAN (notice the missing "ed" - not you O2B)
 

Z Man

New member
Criminalized? Hmmmm......

Criminalized? Hmmmm......

Originally posted by Sozo:
I agree with everything you said regarding homosexuality in relation to God, and the gospel. So, do you think it should be criminalized like other sins, such as murder, stealing, etc?

Sozo, if all sins were criminalized, don't you think we'd all be doing time in this world? Our justice system may not condemn homosexuality, but we know God does. It may not be a crime in this world, but in reality and in God's everlasting realm, it is.

I don't promote homosexuality, and I really wish the public wouldn't either (I really hate that show "Will and Grace"), but as for making it outlawed, I don't know. That may be going to far in political terms. If a politician came up with a law that banned it, of course I'd support them, but I really don't think that that will ever happen in my lifetime..... :nono:

Besides, homosexuality is just one sin out of millions that should be banned in this world. The hard facts of this life is that people will never ban the things they enjoy. We're just pilgrims in a foreign land, and one day we can look forward to sin being justified once and for all....
 

Sozo

New member
Re: Criminalized? Hmmmm......

Re: Criminalized? Hmmmm......

Originally posted by Z Man
Originally posted by Sozo:


Sozo, if all sins were criminalized, don't you think we'd all be doing time in this world? Our justice system may not condemn homosexuality, but we know God does. It may not be a crime in this world, but in reality and in God's everlasting realm, it is.

Thanks for your answer.

You just appeared to be very hard on those who disagreed with these godless witches that want to justify homosexuality as a valid lifestyle, which as you said, it is not.

Although I agree that our objective is to share Christ with a lost world that is only doing what is natural, I think that if we remain silent on this issue, we may make it appear as though we endorse the behavior.
 
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