ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

Freak

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Solly


The seed of the church is the blood of its martyrs.

Over 150 years ago, missionaries from Great Britain and Germany traveled to northeast India to preach the gospel.

Dr. P.P Job, Director of our sister mission in India, tells the story of how, during this time, a man, his wife and two children were converted to Christ. Their spontaneous faith spread throughout the village, angering the leader of the community. He summoned the man before the village and demanded that he renounce his Christian faith or face execution.

The man, facing this crucial decision, sang a song that I have heard sung around the world,"I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back.”

Enraged, the chief ordered the archers to shoot the two children. As both of the boys lay twitching on the ground,the chief asked, “Now will you renounce your faith? You have lost both of your children. You will lose your wife as well.”

The man replied by singing, “Though no one joins me, still will I follow. Though no one joins me, still will I follow.Though no one joins me, still will I follow. No turning back, no turning back.”

The chief was beside himself with rage and he ordered the wife put to death. Now he asked for the final time, “Now I will give you one more opportunity to deny your faith and live. There is no one for you in the world.”

The man then sang, “The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me. No turning back, no turning back.”

Eventually the courage of this man and his family would lead to the conversion of this chief and the entire village, but he didn’t know that at that time. His call was simply to be unashamed of the gospel. Their death (as is the death of all His saints) was a tragedy and not something that God allows lightly (see Psalm 116:15). Yet, God was able to cause something beautiful to come out of it.
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Ha! Jesus wins! DD and her fallacies fail! Praise Jesus Christ for those who stand for Him in the midst of death. Great post!
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
It is NOT TRIVIAL IN REGARDS TO ANYTHING. To say such a thing is out and out sick.
 
Freak

Freak

New member
Originally posted by AVmetro
Perhaps not as trivial in regards to emotions etc.. But the principle remains the same nonetheless.

These speak more of giving all to christ, but the point is made nonetheless:

Mat 10:35 For I came to set a man at odds against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Mat 10:36 A man's foes will be those of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me isn't worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 He who doesn't take his cross and follow after me, isn't worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He who finds his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.


Mat 19:29 Everyone who has left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, will receive one hundred times, and will inherit eternal life.

What you must ask yourself:
  • Would you deny Christ in order to save your life/family?
  • Did Peter deny Christ in order to save his life?
  • Would you *sincerely* deny Christ in this scenario? (No)
  • Did Peter *sincerely* deny Christ in the biblical account? (No)
  • Was the Lord happy? What happened to Peter?
  • Dito in regards to you.

My wife and I are both Christians and my daughter is two. I would have no more trouble confessing Christ than any individual in 'Foxe's Book of Martyrs'. Or any 1st century Christian under Nero for that matter.

God bless--Avmetro
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Awesome Post! Got your email my friend. Still looking forward to you coming to Haiti with us.
 
Freak

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
It is NOT TRIVIAL IN REGARDS TO ANYTHING. To say such a thing is out and out sick.
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Give all to Jesus, including your family, DD! It's called radical committment!
 
AVmetro

AVmetro

BANNED
Banned
Solly

Solly

The seed of the church is the blood of its martyrs.

Over 150 years ago, missionaries from Great Britain and Germany traveled to northeast India to preach the gospel.

Dr. P.P Job, Director of our sister mission in India, tells the story of how, during this time, a man, his wife and two children were converted to Christ. Their spontaneous faith spread throughout the village, angering the leader of the community. He summoned the man before the village and demanded that he renounce his Christian faith or face execution.

The man, facing this crucial decision, sang a song that I have heard sung around the world,"I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back.”

Enraged, the chief ordered the archers to shoot the two children. As both of the boys lay twitching on the ground,the chief asked, “Now will you renounce your faith? You have lost both of your children. You will lose your wife as well.”

The man replied by singing, “Though no one joins me, still will I follow. Though no one joins me, still will I follow.Though no one joins me, still will I follow. No turning back, no turning back.”

The chief was beside himself with rage and he ordered the wife put to death. Now he asked for the final time, “Now I will give you one more opportunity to deny your faith and live. There is no one for you in the world.”

The man then sang, “The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me. The cross before me, the world behind me. No turning back, no turning back.”

Eventually the courage of this man and his family would lead to the conversion of this chief and the entire village, but he didn’t know that at that time. His call was simply to be unashamed of the gospel. Their death (as is the death of all His saints) was a tragedy and not something that God allows lightly (see Psalm 116:15). Yet, God was able to cause something beautiful to come out of it.
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Amen. :angel:
 
Freak

Freak

New member
Originally posted by smilax
Pro-confession versus pro-deception? And just as pro-choice is pro-abortion, so pro-deception is pro-denial.

I'm going to duck now to avoid the incoming spears.

If every aspect of your life is committed to your Lord and Savior, why would you ever give a verbal denial of Him? What could possibly be more important than that?
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Smilax, great post. Great question!
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Freak you obviously have not been paying too much attention to a lot of what I have been saying. In case you have not noticed, I am not the only one participating here, so you're singling out of me for your attention belies motivatoins on your part other than this issue, especially since I have not been the most zealous defender. I have readily admitted that I am giving this issue deep and serious thought, but I cannot dismiss Knight's very weighty example and arguments out of hand. I do not believe it would be wrong in that specific example, and Knight has defended that well.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Ciris, I am very calm, and your suggestion that I am not is dumb once again and a stupid debating trick (but one worthy of Freak.. why don't you just call me "little lady" to make it complete?)
 
Freak

Freak

New member
DD, stop being prideful! Bow before Jesus!

Give everything to Him.

When you said: but I cannot dismiss Knight's very weighty example and arguments out of hand.

We are asking you to dismiss Knight's "very weighty" example for Jesus, are you willing to do that?
 
C

cirisme

Guest
?

?

DDW, Why not deal with the issue instead of always calling me "dumb" and "stupid"?
 
Calvinist

Calvinist

New member
.....arg.... fighting temptation to mock and post green pics of reptiles with fire and lightning... must resist... till.... 1000 posts....
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Freak... sigh, you just don't get it. I would dismiss anything for Jesus that I believed He would have me to do. The problem is that I don't agree that what you are proposing is what God would have us do in that specific situation. Your cheap semantical tricks aren't doing anything for this discussion.
 
Freak

Freak

New member
When I tell DD to bow before Jesus she replies:

Your cheap semantical tricks aren't doing anything for this discussion.

She would hate the third world believers who love Jesus (and who would give everything For HIM) and who lack the formal education DD espouses that she has. They too would simply say give all to Jesus and DD would reply: Your cheap semantical tricks aren't doing anything for this discussion.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
DDW, Why not deal with the issue instead of always calling me "dumb" and "stupid"?
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ALWAYS Ciris?? Really?? Caught a bit of the Melodrama Syndrome from Jaltus have we?? I use those words very judicioulsy and you have managed to offend me once agian with your insinuation that I throw them at you daily like candy. The only person that I regularly call an idiot is myself. That comment that our God considers the brutal death of someone's entire family to be TRIVIAL is stupid and dumb and sick. I can't remember the last time I ever said anything like that to you so stop misrepresenting me.
 
Freak

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren


ALWAYS Ciris?? Really?? Caught a bit of the Melodrama Syndrome from Jaltus have we?? I use those words very judicioulsy and you have managed to offend me once agian with your insinuation that I throw them at you daily like candy. The only person that I regularly call an idiot is myself. That comment that our God considers the brutal death of someone's entire family to be TRIVIAL is stupid and dumb and sick. I can't remember the last time I ever said anything like that to you so stop misrepresenting me.
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DD, Your cheap semantical tricks aren't doing anything for this discussion.
 
D

Dee Dee Warren

Guest
And you have again failed to engage the issue Freak. All I can say to you at this point with regards to my relationship with Christ is to say:

"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own Master he stands or falls." I think we are getting to the point where this passage applies.....

I am confident of Christ's lordship in my life. I am serioulsy weighing this issue as I do all issues. If you guys (not everyone - don't misunderstand me) want to just dismiss Knight and I's points as claiming that we do not honor Christ as Lord, I think you are missing our point, and really failing to engage the underlying issues. That is what I call cheap. Everyone here is willing to surrender all to Christ that He would have us surrender, so to insinuate otherwise is slanderous. We disagree on exactly what He would have us do. That is entirely different issue altogether.
 
AVmetro

AVmetro

BANNED
Banned
To Ciris: And yet even dumber. I am offended that you think that the death of someone's family is trivial in God's eyes.
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Quite the contrary. As Solly pointed out:

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of Yahweh is the death of his saints.

The citation he provided of the martyred family is a prime example. Is this "sick"?


Freak you obviously have not been paying too much attention to a lot of what I have been saying. In case you have not noticed, I am not the only one participating here, so you're singling out of me for your attention belies motivatoins on your part other than this issue, especially since I have not been the most zealous defender. I have readily admitted that I am giving this issue deep and serious thought, but I cannot dismiss Knight's very weighty example and arguments out of hand. I do not believe it would be wrong in that specific example, and Knight has defended that well.
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Gen 22:2 He said, "Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, even Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah. Offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of."

Is this "cruel"? I know that God did not allow Abraham to go all the way through with it, but the principle remains. This is what Christ asks of us today, to sacrifice ourselves and all we have for His sake.

The objection I am seeing here is no worse than the destruction of the Amalekites. Remember- Men, women, and children?

Cruelty?:

What of Aaron's son's that offered profane fire with "good intentions"?

What of the man who merely gathered wood on the Sabbath day and was stoned by the children of Israel as a result?

Now back to Peter and his denial. The effect it had on Him and the Lord. Was Jesus angry and/or sorrowful or did he dismiss it all because they were, in reality, nudging elbows behind the scenes?

God bless you Dee Dee--Jeremiah
 
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