ARCHIVE: I believe religion to be obsolete
- Thread starter prodigal
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Lighthouse,
(You don't know anything. You only deny, deny, deny.)
I deny anything that is passed off as indisputable when no proof is provided to back up the claim. If this were a court case it would be thrown out. Gravity versus god. You can test gravity, you can't test god. So yes, I do do a lot of denying, but I will only deny outrageous claims that have no proof to verify their validity. Unless of course you do have proof of the validity of anything you believe. And remember, you are free to believe whatever you want. Just don't insult me, just don't act superior to anyone because you have nothing to show for yourself from your beliefs that you or anyone else could have accomplished on their own.
(If I had seen, or heard Him, and described Him, you still wouldn't believe me. I don't know what His voice sounds like, as I do with the temporal voices of people I know. And I have enver seen Him, or I would not be here.)
Come on, gimme a little credit here. Thanks for answering my questions at any rate. God has never spoken to you, god has never shown himself to you. Believe in him all you want, just don't tell me it's the truth.
(I don't know why you don't believe it. You're the one who doesn't beleive. Of course, I'm certain that what you believed before was mostly lies, anyway.)
I don't believe it because it can't be proven. I've been saying that all along. And of course, what I believed before was lies, I didn't prescribe to your particular set of beliefs! Duh! Come on Lighthouse, if an ex-christian calls his former religion on the carpet for anything the apologists always cover themselves by saying, "you were taught lies before!" Classic example of christian BS, I don't buy it for an instant.
(But you still worship them? You can test God. But if you don't know how to test Him, then you won't receive any answers. And if you do receive answers, you may not like them.)
First off, I never said I worship stars. A classic example of the super powers of a christian: the power to not only put words into the mouths of those that disagree, but the power also to read minds. It's incredible.
All right, how do you test god? If christianity is so important, if your particular system of god worship is so infallible and so right, than please tell me how to test god in order to have him prove himself to me so that I will be free from my sin just like you. But Ima go out on a limb here, you won't tell me. It's up to me to figure out, right? Either you have some sort of nut case plan for getting god to show his cards to me, or you're just going to completely avoid the challenge altogether and say that the responsibility rests on me.
You're either full of BS, or you're going to side step me all together. Can't wait to find out.
(You don't know anything. You only deny, deny, deny.)
I deny anything that is passed off as indisputable when no proof is provided to back up the claim. If this were a court case it would be thrown out. Gravity versus god. You can test gravity, you can't test god. So yes, I do do a lot of denying, but I will only deny outrageous claims that have no proof to verify their validity. Unless of course you do have proof of the validity of anything you believe. And remember, you are free to believe whatever you want. Just don't insult me, just don't act superior to anyone because you have nothing to show for yourself from your beliefs that you or anyone else could have accomplished on their own.
(If I had seen, or heard Him, and described Him, you still wouldn't believe me. I don't know what His voice sounds like, as I do with the temporal voices of people I know. And I have enver seen Him, or I would not be here.)
Come on, gimme a little credit here. Thanks for answering my questions at any rate. God has never spoken to you, god has never shown himself to you. Believe in him all you want, just don't tell me it's the truth.
(I don't know why you don't believe it. You're the one who doesn't beleive. Of course, I'm certain that what you believed before was mostly lies, anyway.)
I don't believe it because it can't be proven. I've been saying that all along. And of course, what I believed before was lies, I didn't prescribe to your particular set of beliefs! Duh! Come on Lighthouse, if an ex-christian calls his former religion on the carpet for anything the apologists always cover themselves by saying, "you were taught lies before!" Classic example of christian BS, I don't buy it for an instant.
(But you still worship them? You can test God. But if you don't know how to test Him, then you won't receive any answers. And if you do receive answers, you may not like them.)
First off, I never said I worship stars. A classic example of the super powers of a christian: the power to not only put words into the mouths of those that disagree, but the power also to read minds. It's incredible.
All right, how do you test god? If christianity is so important, if your particular system of god worship is so infallible and so right, than please tell me how to test god in order to have him prove himself to me so that I will be free from my sin just like you. But Ima go out on a limb here, you won't tell me. It's up to me to figure out, right? Either you have some sort of nut case plan for getting god to show his cards to me, or you're just going to completely avoid the challenge altogether and say that the responsibility rests on me.
You're either full of BS, or you're going to side step me all together. Can't wait to find out.
Did I say God was indisputable? You're disputing Him, aren't you?
Yes you can. You can test His word. You can test His promises. You can test His patience. In fact, you are testing Him with your postings.
I have all the proof I need. The proof I have is not sufficient proof for you, because it is my proof. I can't prove my proof to you.
He has proven Himself to me. Just because I did not physically see or hear Him, doesn't mean anything. He's not tangible, He's Spirit.:duh:
You have no clue what I believe. If you had had the truth, you wouldn't have left. I know that, because I have seen the proof of that, time after time. God can be proven, because He is true. In fact, He has already proven Himself. Of course, you can't prove that which isn't true. I've always held to that. So I suppose that most of your former beliefs can not be proven. But your former beleifs are not God.
You said you trusted astrology. If that's not worshipping stars, what is it?
Test his word. Test His promises. Look for the evidence that exists. Of course, you're probably not willing to do that.
Classic case of transference and projection.:nono:
Lighthouse,
(Yes you can. You can test His word. You can test His promises. You can test His patience. In fact, you are testing Him with your postings.)
I'm sure there are all sorts of tests you can perform with every other religion on the planet. It proves nothing.
(I have all the proof I need. The proof I have is not sufficient proof for you, because it is my proof. I can't prove my proof to you.)
Awesone, LH, we agree! My problem is when you call it the truth. You cannot call that which has only been, and can only be proven to you as truth for everyone.
(He has proven Himself to me. Just because I did not physically see or hear Him, doesn't mean anything)
It means that you believe what you want to believe whether or not it's true. Don't worry about it LH, that's how everyone else works. I choose to only believe in things that I can test, like hard work and gravity.
(God can be proven, because He is true. In fact, He has already proven Himself)
When, where, how and where's the proof? Please, what is the proof, and how may I demonstrate it so that I may agree with you?
(You said you trusted astrology. If that's not worshipping stars, what is it?)
It's called looking at the stars and seeing a tangible source of information that can be shown to be pertinent. You can't do that with god. I thought you could read minds, LH. I already told you that I worship myself.
(Test his word. Test His promises. Look for the evidence that exists. Of course, you're probably not willing to do that.)
LH, I love the challenge. Point me in the right direction and I promise you, I will give it a shot.
(So I suppose that most of your former beliefs can not be proven. But your former beleifs are not God.)
And if I followed your beliefs and then fell away, would that make them lies as well? You can't just shuffle around facts, facts that point to the inconsistencies of religion in general, not just christianity. If we were born in the middle east and were muslims than we would believe just as fervently in Ala and would hate christianity and claim complete and exclusive validity in our faith.
Religion makes no sense. We're past it.
(Yes you can. You can test His word. You can test His promises. You can test His patience. In fact, you are testing Him with your postings.)
I'm sure there are all sorts of tests you can perform with every other religion on the planet. It proves nothing.
(I have all the proof I need. The proof I have is not sufficient proof for you, because it is my proof. I can't prove my proof to you.)
Awesone, LH, we agree! My problem is when you call it the truth. You cannot call that which has only been, and can only be proven to you as truth for everyone.
(He has proven Himself to me. Just because I did not physically see or hear Him, doesn't mean anything)
It means that you believe what you want to believe whether or not it's true. Don't worry about it LH, that's how everyone else works. I choose to only believe in things that I can test, like hard work and gravity.
(God can be proven, because He is true. In fact, He has already proven Himself)
When, where, how and where's the proof? Please, what is the proof, and how may I demonstrate it so that I may agree with you?
(You said you trusted astrology. If that's not worshipping stars, what is it?)
It's called looking at the stars and seeing a tangible source of information that can be shown to be pertinent. You can't do that with god. I thought you could read minds, LH. I already told you that I worship myself.
(Test his word. Test His promises. Look for the evidence that exists. Of course, you're probably not willing to do that.)
LH, I love the challenge. Point me in the right direction and I promise you, I will give it a shot.
(So I suppose that most of your former beliefs can not be proven. But your former beleifs are not God.)
And if I followed your beliefs and then fell away, would that make them lies as well? You can't just shuffle around facts, facts that point to the inconsistencies of religion in general, not just christianity. If we were born in the middle east and were muslims than we would believe just as fervently in Ala and would hate christianity and claim complete and exclusive validity in our faith.
Religion makes no sense. We're past it.
I don't find my life to be unpleasant. I am abrasive and confrontational, yes. But most people I know find it refreshing. Especially since I used to be such a pushover.
What makes you think I went off on my own?
Originally posted by lighthouse
I don't find my life to be unpleasant. I am abrasive and confrontational, yes. But most people I know find it refreshing. Especially since I used to be such a pushover.
What makes you think I went off on my own?
Wantsdirection seems to be an exception to your new-found SOB attitude, from the sounds of it. Hope you're happy with the bang up job you did alienating a friend of yours.
Brandon, judging by your posts here, the last thing you are is happy. Bitter, paranoid, and judgmental maybe, but certainly not at peace. Trust me, I've been there. I have more peace of mind now out of the faith than I ever had in it.
wickwoman
New member
Sorry, that's your own personal fantasy, don't pin it on Jesus.
I pointed them out once that I recall, did I more than once? I apologize. I shouldn't have. You obviously bring out the worst in me.
You personally behave aggressively towards me and others who do not share you and/or Bob Enyart's every opinion. The words are yours, not God's. Do you presume to speak on God's behalf? And, thank God what you say isn't so. Because you are so full of venom. I'm sorry that you are unhappy. I'm sorry that I make you unhappy. But, unfortunately, that's the way things are. You and I are the same. And if I end up on a big pile of crap, so will you. So we should work together to avoid such tragedies.
I don't recall expounding excessively on my good deeds. Do you have some evidence that I've done so? I do recall saying that everyone is deserving of God's love. Does this make you think I'm saying I'm better than you? Because I'm not.
Can you then perceive unworthiness in your brother and not perceive it in yourself? And can you perceive it in yourself and not perceive it in God? ACIM 11, pg. 208
Of course the ability to test things doesn't prove them!:doh: The proof comes from the evidence you find in testing them. His promises are true. If you test them, you will find them to be true.:duh:
That which proved the truth to me is not the truth I speak of. It was merely the proof. And I know many others to whom this truth has been proven to.
No. It doesn't. Proof does not have to be tangible. It only has to be real.
It's staring you in the face. Yet I can't point it out to you, because you refuse to see it. It would be like describing the color red to a man who had been born blind. He wouldn't be able to see it, and neither are you. The only difference is that you can open your eyes, you just refuse to do so.
If you had said you trusted in astronomy, then I would understand. Astronomy is science. And it doesn't misuse the stars in order to "predict" the future.
Pertinent to what?
You can do that with God. You just don't want to.
Who said I could read minds?
You are not a god.
His word and promises are availale for you. If you don't know where to find them, then there's no hope fo you at all. Do I really need to tell you where to find God's word?
You wouldn't fall away. You might fall away form some of the beliefs I hold. I've fallen from beliefs I've held. And I can't say for certain that all the things I believe now are completley true. If God reveals to me that they are wrong, I will not merely fall away from them, I will walk away. As I said, I've done it before.
Did you know that Muslims convert to Christianity, simply because they read the New Testament. I don't know that this is true for all Muslims who read it, but it happens.
:duh:
wickwoman
New member
Prodigal, it is hateful and you are not insane, at least no more insane than the rest of us. But, I think you are disillusioned. And this makes me sad. Because I believe you, at one point, had some expectations for God, but now you believe he/she didn't live up to them. Disappointment can sometimes be the spring board for learning new things. And, if God does exist, he/she won't be mad at you for taking some time to figure things out. So, go to work, pay your bills, do your laundry. And, every once in a while, take time out to enjoy a really great sunset. It might just occur to you that there is a Someone behind that beautiful scene and, if you see God there, tell him/her thanks. But, if you never do see proof of God, that’s O.K. too. If God does exist, I know he/she won’t be holding that against you.
This is what I hope you find:
"As a blind man feels when he finds a pearl in a dustbin, so am I amazed by the miracles of awakening rising in my consciousness. It is the nectar of immortality that delivers us from death, the treasure that lifts us from death, the treasure that lifts us above poverty into the wealth of giving to life, the tree that gives shade to us when we roam about scorched by life, the bridge that takes us across the stormy river of life, the cool moon of compassion that calms our mind when it is agitated, the fun that dispels darkness, the butter made from the milk of kindness by churning it with the dharma. It is a feast of joy to which all are invited."
-adapted from the Bodhicharyavatara by Shantideva
Prodigal,
Hilston then asked: Is that your answer? You don't know; you just assume that your eyes are trustworthy?
You skipped this earlier. Now would be a good time to answer this question.
I earlier asked: Why do you trust your "common sense."
Lest it be demonstrated that you have a self-refuting view of reality, now would be a good time to answer this question.
Hilston previously wrote: So, just like the theory of geocentricity, you only have a guess about reality and the verity of your senses so far, right? Since you have nothing solid on which to base your judgments about reality, and since you merely assume that your senses are giving you accurate data concerning reality, it seems to me that you operate on blind faith and that you really can't know anything for sure. Can you deny that?
I'm still interested in your reaction to that paragraph.
You made reference to "facts", Prodigal. What is your criterion for something to qualify as a "fact"?
You made reference to "religion." Please define what you mean by this.
I look forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.
Hilston
Where is your proof to verify the validity of your senses and your reasoning? From what you've written thus far, you have no such proof, only blind assumption and a specious appeal to "common sense " (whatever that is). Aren't you being quite hypocritical to demand of others what you cannot provide for yourself?
Hilston then asked: Is that your answer? You don't know; you just assume that your eyes are trustworthy?
You skipped this earlier. Now would be a good time to answer this question.
I earlier asked: Why do you trust your "common sense."
Lest it be demonstrated that you have a self-refuting view of reality, now would be a good time to answer this question.
Hilston previously wrote: So, just like the theory of geocentricity, you only have a guess about reality and the verity of your senses so far, right? Since you have nothing solid on which to base your judgments about reality, and since you merely assume that your senses are giving you accurate data concerning reality, it seems to me that you operate on blind faith and that you really can't know anything for sure. Can you deny that?
I'm still interested in your reaction to that paragraph.
Everything you described assumes the verity of your senses, the laws of logic, and the uniformity of nature. If you blindly assume you can trust your senses, if you blindly trust logic as "common sense", and what you perceive as uniformity relies upon the preceding blind assumption and dubious appeal to "common sense", then why do you demand proof from others, when you yourself are no less blind and no less "religious" in your assumptions?
All I'm doing is asking questions, Prodigal. My point is to find out whether you have a solid foundation for why you trust your senses and reason, or if you trust them blindly.
You made reference to "facts", Prodigal. What is your criterion for something to qualify as a "fact"?
You made reference to "religion." Please define what you mean by this.
I look forward to your reply. Thanks for your time.
Hilston
Lighthouse,
(His promises are true. If you test them, you will find them to be true)
LH, I have tested them, for twenty years. I've said it so many times it's clear that you are incapable of understanding the concept of objectivity. I tried christianity for twenty years, twenty years of unanswered prayers and unfulfilled promises. If your god exists in the fashion you say he does, he is a sadist who let me believe for two decades before I walked away in disgust.
(No. It doesn't. Proof does not have to be tangible. It only has to be real)
You have no means of proving that what you believe is real. Proof can be the wind's movement, it can be the stars, it can be a myriad of things. Proof isn't belief in an invisible deity, a zombie messiah and demons. You still haven't defined what form of proof you ever received from god that verifies your claims. Your porn addiction story while touching... no pun intended... is not proof that god fulfilled any of his promises because people overcome addictions to all sorts of things all of the time with no one's help but their own. Like I said before, you had it in you the whole time to overcome your addiction, you blew it LH, you blew it.
(It's staring you in the face. Yet I can't point it out to you, because you refuse to see it. It would be like describing the color red to a man who had been born blind. He wouldn't be able to see it, and neither are you. The only difference is that you can open your eyes, you just refuse to do so.)
This is nothing more than a convenient way of not answering a question to which you cannot supply an answer in the first place. You've side stepped me, LH, and in a big way. If you haven't an answer you just call me blind. It's a cute trick, and as a former christian I can understand why you would use it, but let me tell you something: IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!
(You can do that with God. You just don't want to.)
LIKE I'VE ALREADY SAID BEFORE, LH, I TRIED FOR TWENTY YEARS. It didn't work. I stepped back knowing what I knew of christianity and began to look for different answers. I'm currently investigating both sides of the story, christianity, and everything else. You cannot do that, you refuse to do that. I have an open mind, I have seen christianity in comparison to other options and I've found christianity, or any form of god worship to be fundamentally flawed.
(Who said I could read minds?)
You do, whenever you presume to know the state of my non-existent soul. Whenever you call me blind, whenever you tell me that the truth is right in front of me and I can't see it. You either put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.
(His word and promises are availale for you. If you don't know where to find them, then there's no hope fo you at all)
LIKE I SAID BEFORE.... screw it. You know what Ima say.
(I can't say for certain that all the things I believe now are completley true.)
Thank you for making my point.
(Did you know that Muslims convert to Christianity, simply because they read the New Testament)
Who cares?
Wickwoman,
I'm not disappointed in god. If I'm disappointed in anything it's myself for buying into the idea that god ever gave a care for me in the first place. I'm not going to thank god for anything, because it's never given me anything. And if it did create the universe, than god can kiss my butt because life is hard and it didn't have to put me through any of this crap. Anything I have, anything I get will always come from someone or something of this planet, and not from god.
(His promises are true. If you test them, you will find them to be true)
LH, I have tested them, for twenty years. I've said it so many times it's clear that you are incapable of understanding the concept of objectivity. I tried christianity for twenty years, twenty years of unanswered prayers and unfulfilled promises. If your god exists in the fashion you say he does, he is a sadist who let me believe for two decades before I walked away in disgust.
(No. It doesn't. Proof does not have to be tangible. It only has to be real)
You have no means of proving that what you believe is real. Proof can be the wind's movement, it can be the stars, it can be a myriad of things. Proof isn't belief in an invisible deity, a zombie messiah and demons. You still haven't defined what form of proof you ever received from god that verifies your claims. Your porn addiction story while touching... no pun intended... is not proof that god fulfilled any of his promises because people overcome addictions to all sorts of things all of the time with no one's help but their own. Like I said before, you had it in you the whole time to overcome your addiction, you blew it LH, you blew it.
(It's staring you in the face. Yet I can't point it out to you, because you refuse to see it. It would be like describing the color red to a man who had been born blind. He wouldn't be able to see it, and neither are you. The only difference is that you can open your eyes, you just refuse to do so.)
This is nothing more than a convenient way of not answering a question to which you cannot supply an answer in the first place. You've side stepped me, LH, and in a big way. If you haven't an answer you just call me blind. It's a cute trick, and as a former christian I can understand why you would use it, but let me tell you something: IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!
(You can do that with God. You just don't want to.)
LIKE I'VE ALREADY SAID BEFORE, LH, I TRIED FOR TWENTY YEARS. It didn't work. I stepped back knowing what I knew of christianity and began to look for different answers. I'm currently investigating both sides of the story, christianity, and everything else. You cannot do that, you refuse to do that. I have an open mind, I have seen christianity in comparison to other options and I've found christianity, or any form of god worship to be fundamentally flawed.
(Who said I could read minds?)
You do, whenever you presume to know the state of my non-existent soul. Whenever you call me blind, whenever you tell me that the truth is right in front of me and I can't see it. You either put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.
(His word and promises are availale for you. If you don't know where to find them, then there's no hope fo you at all)
LIKE I SAID BEFORE.... screw it. You know what Ima say.
(I can't say for certain that all the things I believe now are completley true.)
Thank you for making my point.
(Did you know that Muslims convert to Christianity, simply because they read the New Testament)
Who cares?
Wickwoman,
I'm not disappointed in god. If I'm disappointed in anything it's myself for buying into the idea that god ever gave a care for me in the first place. I'm not going to thank god for anything, because it's never given me anything. And if it did create the universe, than god can kiss my butt because life is hard and it didn't have to put me through any of this crap. Anything I have, anything I get will always come from someone or something of this planet, and not from god.
Which is why I don't affiliate my self with a "church," but with Christ.
Hilston,
The only impression I get from you is that the only answer to challenges you have is more questions. By simply deluding the argument with questions to which no one has answers is not a defense, it's an avoidance. I owe you nothing. Your questions are pointless, meaningless, self-bloviated and an instrument for nothing more than to try to shuffle around the issue at hand:
Passing off the unprovable as indisputable.
Hilston, whenever I jump in the air, I don't believe I'm going to fall back to the ground, I know. The sky is blue, there's no doubt. You attempts to discredit my ideas might sound intelligent, but in the end they make no sense and you are simply trying to shuffle around the obvious truth that your faith is based on a book written by liars who want, and have controlled people for thousands of years for nothing more than their own personal gain. By attempting to call into question my own perceptions of reality is simply a means for you to call attention away from your own twisted religion and your own twisted, self replicating, hate filled blind faith. I know that when I go to work and work hard, I'll get paid for my efforts doubly, not just because I work on commision, but because that's the way the world works.
(So, just like the theory of geocentricity, you only have a guess about reality and the verity of your senses so far, right? Since you have nothing solid on which to base your judgments about reality, and since you merely assume that your senses are giving you accurate data concerning reality, it seems to me that you operate on blind faith and that you really can't know anything for sure. Can you deny that?)
No, but I can throw an apple into the air a million times and every time it will fall back to the ground. There's no guesswork or faith involved with knowing that the sky is blue. There's no blind faith when it comes to my work ethic or the way a buyer's agency contract works in my state. I make no guesses. Guesses are not necessary.
(Where is your proof to verify the validity of your senses and your reasoning? From what you've written thus far, you have no such proof, only blind assumption and a specious appeal to "common sense " (whatever that is). Aren't you being quite hypocritical to demand of others what you cannot provide for yourself?)
You don't have to prove that the sky is blue, Hilston. You can just look at it. I don't need to prove what is obvious enough for everyone to see. The sun is bright, dogs bark, what proof do you need? None.
(Hilston then asked: Is that your answer? You don't know; you just assume that your eyes are trustworthy?)
Like I said above, there's no guess work involved. If my eye sight gets blurry than I'll get glasses. So far nothing by 20/20. I can go to a doctor and have him examine my eyes and tell me if there's something wrong, unless you're refering to some deeper, undetectable ailment that so far hasn't been discovered by modern science. If there is such a thing you seem to be the only person who knows anything about it.
(Everything you described assumes the verity of your senses, the laws of logic, and the uniformity of nature. If you blindly assume you can trust your senses, if you blindly trust logic as "common sense", and what you perceive as uniformity relies upon the preceding blind assumption and dubious appeal to "common sense", then why do you demand proof from others, when you yourself are no less blind and no less "religious" in your assumptions?)
First of all, I'm not even sure if there was a point to that paragraph that anyone would understand other than yourself. And no, everything I described is testable, has been tested since the beginning of time and will continue to be tested for ever more. Like going to work and earning money. Like gravity. I don't assume these things work without proof, I know they will work because the proof speaks for itself. That's why you go to college to learn about things like logic, work, money, nature. We teach these things in our schools because the results are self-evident. If you go to work you will make money. That's a system that has proof but requires none to be valid.
(You made reference to "facts", Prodigal. What is your criterion for something to qualify as a "fact"?
You made reference to "religion." Please define what you mean by this.)
You can try to shuffle around the issue as much as you'd like by requesting definitions and criterion, but these are things that will not defend you, nor will they hurt me. You know what a fact is, I know what a fact is. You know what religion is, I know what religion is. Let's not kid ourselves with definitions when we both know exactly what we're talking about.
A fact is a true statement of reality, like when my parents taught me colors, they taught me that red was red because red is red and it cannot be anything else and never was anything else but red. I was taught that dogs bark, and dogs do indeed bark. I was taught that the sky is blue, and indeed, the sky is blue. No proof is needed. There's no doubt surrounding the existence of the moon, there's no proof needed either because, bam, there it is up there in the sky. You ask for proof where no proof is necessary. I'm asking for proof to back your faith up with and you have none. There's nothing to look to in religion, there's no one indisputable fact that ties christianity together, if there were everyone would be christians because you can't look at the sky and say it's red.
A religion is a group of maniacs following an invisible god towards no end except death which is the same end we all go to.
The only impression I get from you is that the only answer to challenges you have is more questions. By simply deluding the argument with questions to which no one has answers is not a defense, it's an avoidance. I owe you nothing. Your questions are pointless, meaningless, self-bloviated and an instrument for nothing more than to try to shuffle around the issue at hand:
Passing off the unprovable as indisputable.
Hilston, whenever I jump in the air, I don't believe I'm going to fall back to the ground, I know. The sky is blue, there's no doubt. You attempts to discredit my ideas might sound intelligent, but in the end they make no sense and you are simply trying to shuffle around the obvious truth that your faith is based on a book written by liars who want, and have controlled people for thousands of years for nothing more than their own personal gain. By attempting to call into question my own perceptions of reality is simply a means for you to call attention away from your own twisted religion and your own twisted, self replicating, hate filled blind faith. I know that when I go to work and work hard, I'll get paid for my efforts doubly, not just because I work on commision, but because that's the way the world works.
(So, just like the theory of geocentricity, you only have a guess about reality and the verity of your senses so far, right? Since you have nothing solid on which to base your judgments about reality, and since you merely assume that your senses are giving you accurate data concerning reality, it seems to me that you operate on blind faith and that you really can't know anything for sure. Can you deny that?)
No, but I can throw an apple into the air a million times and every time it will fall back to the ground. There's no guesswork or faith involved with knowing that the sky is blue. There's no blind faith when it comes to my work ethic or the way a buyer's agency contract works in my state. I make no guesses. Guesses are not necessary.
(Where is your proof to verify the validity of your senses and your reasoning? From what you've written thus far, you have no such proof, only blind assumption and a specious appeal to "common sense " (whatever that is). Aren't you being quite hypocritical to demand of others what you cannot provide for yourself?)
You don't have to prove that the sky is blue, Hilston. You can just look at it. I don't need to prove what is obvious enough for everyone to see. The sun is bright, dogs bark, what proof do you need? None.
(Hilston then asked: Is that your answer? You don't know; you just assume that your eyes are trustworthy?)
Like I said above, there's no guess work involved. If my eye sight gets blurry than I'll get glasses. So far nothing by 20/20. I can go to a doctor and have him examine my eyes and tell me if there's something wrong, unless you're refering to some deeper, undetectable ailment that so far hasn't been discovered by modern science. If there is such a thing you seem to be the only person who knows anything about it.
(Everything you described assumes the verity of your senses, the laws of logic, and the uniformity of nature. If you blindly assume you can trust your senses, if you blindly trust logic as "common sense", and what you perceive as uniformity relies upon the preceding blind assumption and dubious appeal to "common sense", then why do you demand proof from others, when you yourself are no less blind and no less "religious" in your assumptions?)
First of all, I'm not even sure if there was a point to that paragraph that anyone would understand other than yourself. And no, everything I described is testable, has been tested since the beginning of time and will continue to be tested for ever more. Like going to work and earning money. Like gravity. I don't assume these things work without proof, I know they will work because the proof speaks for itself. That's why you go to college to learn about things like logic, work, money, nature. We teach these things in our schools because the results are self-evident. If you go to work you will make money. That's a system that has proof but requires none to be valid.
(You made reference to "facts", Prodigal. What is your criterion for something to qualify as a "fact"?
You made reference to "religion." Please define what you mean by this.)
You can try to shuffle around the issue as much as you'd like by requesting definitions and criterion, but these are things that will not defend you, nor will they hurt me. You know what a fact is, I know what a fact is. You know what religion is, I know what religion is. Let's not kid ourselves with definitions when we both know exactly what we're talking about.
A fact is a true statement of reality, like when my parents taught me colors, they taught me that red was red because red is red and it cannot be anything else and never was anything else but red. I was taught that dogs bark, and dogs do indeed bark. I was taught that the sky is blue, and indeed, the sky is blue. No proof is needed. There's no doubt surrounding the existence of the moon, there's no proof needed either because, bam, there it is up there in the sky. You ask for proof where no proof is necessary. I'm asking for proof to back your faith up with and you have none. There's nothing to look to in religion, there's no one indisputable fact that ties christianity together, if there were everyone would be christians because you can't look at the sky and say it's red.
A religion is a group of maniacs following an invisible god towards no end except death which is the same end we all go to.