ARCHIVE: I believe religion to be obsolete
- Thread starter prodigal
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At best all you can demonstrate is that they do exist, and actually you can't even prove that without borrowing from a Biblical worldview, but leaving that aside for the moment, you've missed the point of the question, again. I didn't question whether they exist or not, I question your ability to account for their existence. How did they come to be? Did they just pop into existence out of nothing or what? My point is that you are utterly unable to answer this question without tacitly borrowing from a Biblical view of reality. You cannot do it because it cannot be done.
On the contrary! It is you who are calling the Biblical worldview into question, not me. All I'm doing is exposing how bankrupt your own worldview is in regards to answering even the most basic epistemological questions. The point being that the worldview that you have replaced the Biblical worldview with is displaying the very problems which you claim that Christianity has. With almost every word you speak, you argue against your own position! It's sort of funny actually. :chuckle:
What?!!! You are the one who said that the Biblical worldview is "...foolishness, it's madness, and I think it's sick, twisted and is propagated by no one else but the sick of mind, control freaks, and weakling masses who crave answers and are provided them by those who are on power trips." Sure sounds like a claim to me! The problem for you is that with my Biblical worldview intact, I can explain the existence of my 5 senses and my ability to think and to reason and to use logic, all without vicious circularity in my logic. You, on the other hand, cannot and I do mean cannot. I'm not suggesting that you are simply ignorant of the argument, I'm saying that no such argument exist. Any attempt to explain the world and the universe it is in without a Biblical worldview inevitably ends up begging the question, every time.
In a nutshell yes. Christianity is true because of the impossibility of the contrary.
Prove me wrong then. Explain the existence of a human being ability to contemplate abstract concepts such as time, logic, mathematics, etc. I have no doubt that you are able to count, but can you account for the existence of mathematics, can you account for counting? No! You cannot.
That's what you claim I am doing but in reality it is you who live a life of blind faith. You mention leprechauns, do they exists? No? How do you know this? How do you know that you exist? How do you know that you know anything? Perhaps you live in The Matrix and everything you think that you see, touch, taste, smell and hear are just dreams fed to you by the central computer. How do you know that this is not the way things really are?
:think: Hmm, let me see. Is the existence of God important? Good question!
If you're stupid!
Thank you for arguing my side of this debate!
You don't even understand how you've done that do you? :chuckle:
This is getting boring! Are you really this dense, or what?
Where do the factories come from?
People made the factories, right?
Where did the people come from?
Their mommy and daddy had a few birds and bees right?
Where did mommy and daddy come from?
Adam and Eve? Ah! No no no! You can't go there, can you? That would way too overtly Biblical.
How about evolution?
Okay! What did humans evolve from?
Apes.
Where did apes come from?
Monkeys.
Where did monkeys come from?
Bacteria (I know I skipped a few steps)
Where did bacteria come from?
Primordial goo.
Where'd the goo come from?
The Big Bang. (Yes, I keep skipping a lot of steps)
What caused the Big Bang?
I don't know (blind faith)
Nothing (stupid blind faith)
God (modified Biblical worldview)
Get it now? What other options would you propose?
You're begging the question. Explain how anything can be proven in the first place without resorting to a Biblical worldview. You are assuming that logical proofs can even be made outside a Biblical worldview and I'm telling you that they cannot. Go ahead and try it if you don't believe me. Every time you try you will beg the question, every time. Either that or you will intentionally go off into blatant irrationality, accepting self contradictory presuppositions. It's irrefutable. If reality is not the way the Bible depicts it, then it cannot exist at all. That which must be true cannot be false and vise versa and thus the Biblical worldview is true and yours is false.
I've demonstrated that, in fact, that is precisely what you are doing; you just don't want to see it.
I have made no such claim on this thread. All I've claimed is that you are unable to explain how you can even express the idea that the Biblical worldview is false, if the Biblical worldview is, in fact, false!
The only thing I'm attempting to sell on this thread is that you have not thought your own belief system through and that you cannot explain reality as we all experience it if the things you claim are false are, in fact, false.
No. All I'm doing is exposing the fact that you are holding less than a pair of deuces in your own hand. You don't even have an Ace in the whole, you are holding nothing at all.
I've given you more proof than you should need already, to go further would be premature at best. Beside, I'm not about to let you off the hook that easily. You are making claims as to the obsolescence of the Biblical worldview and are making it perfectly clear that you've replaced such a worldview with something that is full to the brim with the very problems that you are accusing Christianity of having.
It would help, by the way, if you actually knew something about what you are rejecting before rejecting it.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I agree with Granite, Clete. As I've said several times, I was a christian for twenty years. It's not as though I was born yesterday or flipped through the bible indifferently. I have been submerged (in more ways than one) in christianity for quite some time. You can talk down to me all you like, but this biblical worldview of yours is tired and nothing more than window dressing. You can't prove that god created the universe or that the bible is divinely inspired, therefore your biblical worldview, whatever it is, is just as in question as everything else you believe. You've challened Granite and myself to refute your biblical worldview without defining what it is. Once again, you're claiming the pot without showing your cards.
I would be more than happy to refute whatever it is that you think you have, but you haven't given me anything to refute. You've already said you won't define it until we refute it. It's almost as ridiculous as John Kerry's "plan" to win the war on terror. He talked about it a lot, but he had no plan. So far, all you've demonstrated to me is the term "biblical worldview". I don't know what it is yet.
(No. All I'm doing is exposing the fact that you are holding less than a pair of deuces in your own hand. You don't even have an Ace in the whole, you are holding nothing at all.)
I'm holding five senses. You're holding a book full of fairy tales. You can argue about where the senses came from, where logic came from, where anything came from, but the fact of the matter is, no one can prove where anything came from, so you're back at square one. All you have is this smoke screen, this biblical worldview that's supposed to be powerful enough to refute my worldview, but you've shown nothing, you've insulted my intelligence and claimed victory before fighting the battle.
(Explain how anything can be proven in the first place without resorting to a Biblical worldview.)
Okay. Watch CSI and see how they prove things. Throw a friggin' apple in the air and watch it plummet to the ground. You don't need the bible to demonstrate gravity, you don't need a biblical worldview (whatever you think that might be) to demonstrate that breathing keeps us alive. You can argue that since god is the creator of all things than a biblical worldview is the only way to interpret the act of breathing to perpetuate life, but until you can prove that god did in fact create the universe, you're right back where you started. You're passing off the unprovable as indisputable.
(You are assuming that logical proofs can even be made outside a Biblical worldview and I'm telling you that they cannot.)
You see, Clete, you can TELL me that, but you can't demonstrate or prove a thing. As for the rest of that point you making, you didn't make a lick of sense. None of it did. I'm sure in your mind you're a genius, but something tells me you're just hiding behind an obscure chapter title in an otherwise obscure theology book that you didn't even bother to read, otherwise you would have honestly and fearlessly detailed your biblical worldview in the beginning, and only THEN would you have made your challenge. You say you have a secret weapon, you talk about it a lot, but you haven't shown us a thing.
(I've demonstrated that, in fact, that is precisely what you are doing; you just don't want to see it.)
What is so fantastical about what I have said?
( Hmm, let me see. Is the existence of God important? Good question!
If you're stupid!)
Thanks. It must be nice to have the luxury of labeling everyone who disagrees with you as just being plain old stupid. No, I don't think the question of whether god exists or not is important. That makes me stupid, eh? No, I think I've got a pretty good handle on god, and I've moved on. There are far more important questions like, how to cure cancer. How to cure AIDs. I don't see god helping, I don't see your biblical worldview helping, and I sure as heck don't see you helping.
(Any attempt to explain the world and the universe it is in without a Biblical worldview inevitably ends up begging the question, every time.)
Begging what question? Clete, the existence of logic doesn't prove anything for you, all it proves is that humans are intelligent and resourceful. I've never heard of god building cities, but there are plenty of stories about him destroying him. I've never heard about god curing cancer, I've never heard of him stopping wars, I've never heard of him preventing atrocities, inventing machines that have made our lives more convenient and comfortable, and he certainly doesn't feed, cloth or bath people. God has done absolutely nothing, and you can't prove that he has simply because you have an old book and a worldview based on an old book. Your worldview is as ancient as the texts it is based on. Because a book says god created the universe you believe it. You call me dense and stupid because I choose to make up my own mind about the world. You can't even think for yourself Clete. The idea of thinking for yourself is abhorrant to not only yourself, but everyone else who subscribes to the doctrines of an antiquated novel whose authorship is called into question every day on the world wide web. Who's being dense? I question the ancient writings of an individual book and suddenly I'm going to hell. You follow blindly with no proof the sayings of a fellow that one of the oldest religions on the planet (judaism) says was a fraud. If you want to play the age game, why don't you follow the code of Hammurabi? That predates christianity by quite a bit if memory serves (and it doesn't always). What about the story of Mythra, who was murdered and three days later was resurrected, who was depicted with a lamb, what about the dozens of other stories that predate christianity but are a mirror image to the story of your "savior"? There's too much out there for you to ignore, so it doesn't surprise me when you hide behind your "biblical worldview". You haven't defined, you can't define, you have already said that you WON'T define it, yet you ask everyone to try and refute it while claiming victory the whole while. Christians have doing this for millenia, all the while denouncing other faiths as false and satan induced and flaunting their beliefs as indisputable without proof.
I don't need an ace in the hole. All I need is what I can feel with my hands, see with my eyes, smell with my nose, hear with my ears and taste with my mouth. All of those senses had to come from somewhere, and yes, maybe they came from god.
I don't know, and neither do you.
I would be more than happy to refute whatever it is that you think you have, but you haven't given me anything to refute. You've already said you won't define it until we refute it. It's almost as ridiculous as John Kerry's "plan" to win the war on terror. He talked about it a lot, but he had no plan. So far, all you've demonstrated to me is the term "biblical worldview". I don't know what it is yet.
(No. All I'm doing is exposing the fact that you are holding less than a pair of deuces in your own hand. You don't even have an Ace in the whole, you are holding nothing at all.)
I'm holding five senses. You're holding a book full of fairy tales. You can argue about where the senses came from, where logic came from, where anything came from, but the fact of the matter is, no one can prove where anything came from, so you're back at square one. All you have is this smoke screen, this biblical worldview that's supposed to be powerful enough to refute my worldview, but you've shown nothing, you've insulted my intelligence and claimed victory before fighting the battle.
(Explain how anything can be proven in the first place without resorting to a Biblical worldview.)
Okay. Watch CSI and see how they prove things. Throw a friggin' apple in the air and watch it plummet to the ground. You don't need the bible to demonstrate gravity, you don't need a biblical worldview (whatever you think that might be) to demonstrate that breathing keeps us alive. You can argue that since god is the creator of all things than a biblical worldview is the only way to interpret the act of breathing to perpetuate life, but until you can prove that god did in fact create the universe, you're right back where you started. You're passing off the unprovable as indisputable.
(You are assuming that logical proofs can even be made outside a Biblical worldview and I'm telling you that they cannot.)
You see, Clete, you can TELL me that, but you can't demonstrate or prove a thing. As for the rest of that point you making, you didn't make a lick of sense. None of it did. I'm sure in your mind you're a genius, but something tells me you're just hiding behind an obscure chapter title in an otherwise obscure theology book that you didn't even bother to read, otherwise you would have honestly and fearlessly detailed your biblical worldview in the beginning, and only THEN would you have made your challenge. You say you have a secret weapon, you talk about it a lot, but you haven't shown us a thing.
(I've demonstrated that, in fact, that is precisely what you are doing; you just don't want to see it.)
What is so fantastical about what I have said?
( Hmm, let me see. Is the existence of God important? Good question!
If you're stupid!)
Thanks. It must be nice to have the luxury of labeling everyone who disagrees with you as just being plain old stupid. No, I don't think the question of whether god exists or not is important. That makes me stupid, eh? No, I think I've got a pretty good handle on god, and I've moved on. There are far more important questions like, how to cure cancer. How to cure AIDs. I don't see god helping, I don't see your biblical worldview helping, and I sure as heck don't see you helping.
(Any attempt to explain the world and the universe it is in without a Biblical worldview inevitably ends up begging the question, every time.)
Begging what question? Clete, the existence of logic doesn't prove anything for you, all it proves is that humans are intelligent and resourceful. I've never heard of god building cities, but there are plenty of stories about him destroying him. I've never heard about god curing cancer, I've never heard of him stopping wars, I've never heard of him preventing atrocities, inventing machines that have made our lives more convenient and comfortable, and he certainly doesn't feed, cloth or bath people. God has done absolutely nothing, and you can't prove that he has simply because you have an old book and a worldview based on an old book. Your worldview is as ancient as the texts it is based on. Because a book says god created the universe you believe it. You call me dense and stupid because I choose to make up my own mind about the world. You can't even think for yourself Clete. The idea of thinking for yourself is abhorrant to not only yourself, but everyone else who subscribes to the doctrines of an antiquated novel whose authorship is called into question every day on the world wide web. Who's being dense? I question the ancient writings of an individual book and suddenly I'm going to hell. You follow blindly with no proof the sayings of a fellow that one of the oldest religions on the planet (judaism) says was a fraud. If you want to play the age game, why don't you follow the code of Hammurabi? That predates christianity by quite a bit if memory serves (and it doesn't always). What about the story of Mythra, who was murdered and three days later was resurrected, who was depicted with a lamb, what about the dozens of other stories that predate christianity but are a mirror image to the story of your "savior"? There's too much out there for you to ignore, so it doesn't surprise me when you hide behind your "biblical worldview". You haven't defined, you can't define, you have already said that you WON'T define it, yet you ask everyone to try and refute it while claiming victory the whole while. Christians have doing this for millenia, all the while denouncing other faiths as false and satan induced and flaunting their beliefs as indisputable without proof.
I don't need an ace in the hole. All I need is what I can feel with my hands, see with my eyes, smell with my nose, hear with my ears and taste with my mouth. All of those senses had to come from somewhere, and yes, maybe they came from god.
I don't know, and neither do you.
I'm tired of repeating myself. You are either to stupid to understand the form of the argument or are intentionally ignoring it.
For the last time, I do not want you to refute my Biblical worldview, I want you to defend your own nonbiblical worldview. Admit it, you cannot do it, can you? By your own admition, you are unable to do the very things that you ignorantly and hypocritically complain that Christianity is unable to do. In so doing you argue against youself and demonstrate that it isn't the truth that you are interested in at all, but rather accepting anything at all rather than the truth of the Bible.
Resting in Him,
Clete
For the last time, I do not want you to refute my Biblical worldview, I want you to defend your own nonbiblical worldview. Admit it, you cannot do it, can you? By your own admition, you are unable to do the very things that you ignorantly and hypocritically complain that Christianity is unable to do. In so doing you argue against youself and demonstrate that it isn't the truth that you are interested in at all, but rather accepting anything at all rather than the truth of the Bible.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete, grow up. You're refusing to even set standards for what you're supposedly defending, so I don't see why prodigal, me, or anyone else should be held to a higher standard. If we knew what you were talking about this discussion would be a lot easier.
If you're happy with your head in the sand, and are unable to even explain what a "biblical worldview" is, you can keep whatever faith you think you have. Man on the street asks what a biblical worldview is. You don't have an answer. Tough luck. Are we supposed to just take your word for it?
One Eyed Jack
New member
On a subconscious level. Basically what Clete is saying is that you have to borrow concepts from our worldview to make any sense out of your own. The atheist has it even worse.
Have you ever heard the debate between Dr. Greg Bahnsen and Dr. Gordon Stein? Check it out -- it's a good debate. You can find it here if you're interested.
...and I would say the Christian worldview--whatever you mean by that phrase--isn't unique. It's a hodge podge. To say that millions of people who live in cultures without an explicitly Christian worldview are either wrong or "really" living in a borrowed Christian worldview (whether they know it or not) is incredibly arrogant.
I'll check out the late Dr. Bahnsen's debate.
wickwoman
New member
Clete, word up, God didn't originate in the BIBLE. The concept existed long before it was written. And so, you may trace any scientific explanation to some orinator, if it pleases you, but there is absolutely no evidence that that orginator is Jehovah.
From now on, I shall make all my arguments based on my dispossessationalist worldview and tell everyone they must prove its nonexistence, however, I will tell nobody what dispossessationalist means.
From now on, I shall make all my arguments based on my dispossessationalist worldview and tell everyone they must prove its nonexistence, however, I will tell nobody what dispossessationalist means.
Ecumenicist
New member
WW:
"From now on, I shall make all my arguments based on my dispossessationalist worldview and tell everyone they must prove its nonexistence, however, I will tell nobody what dispossessationalist means. "
Ouch, I think I just sprained something, in my head.
"From now on, I shall make all my arguments based on my dispossessationalist worldview and tell everyone they must prove its nonexistence, however, I will tell nobody what dispossessationalist means. "
Ouch, I think I just sprained something, in my head.
I never said otherwise.
I am not stupid. You on the other hand cannot even understadn the form of the argument and are a waste of time.
See what I mean? (Probably not!)
"Scientific explanation"? Can you account for the existence of science? I bet you can't without borrowing from a Biblical worldview.
Irrelevent. I don't care what it means. The fact remains that it (dispossessationalism) is and will always be logically incoherent; unable to account for the very presuppositions upon which it is based and thereby begging the question.From now on, I shall make all my arguments based on my dispossessationalist worldview and tell everyone they must prove its nonexistence, however, I will tell nobody what dispossessationalist means.
Resting in Him,
Clete
My reason for not walking away from Christ has nothing to do with a fear of hell, you moron. I know Christ. And I won't leve Him, not after what He's done for me.
What is your standard of rigtheousness? I never said I needed God to be a good person. I siad that He is the only one who could make me righteous and holy. Yes, Christ was in me, and I could have been free from my addiction at any time. But I was decieved. Then the truth was revealed to me. And all at once, in an instant, I was free from my addiction.
I know Christ. I know my Lord. Which of the stars are your friends?:kookoo:
And yet, gravity is still considered a theory. *shrugs shoulders*
Anyway, why do I need to prove it to you? Have you even tried to explore it for yourself? God has already proven Himself. If you refuse to see it, how is that my fault? Why should I be responsible to open your eyes, when you're the one keeping them closed?
Earth god?:darwinsm:
God didn't put you through anything. You chose to be where you are. Do you expect Him to force you into something? Are you interested in Calvinism or something?:liberals:
God doesn't send anyone to hell. And definitely not out of spite.:doh: And He didn't ween me off of anything. He set me free. It was sudden. As soon as I was open to the truth. God doesn't have mood swings. He is constant. He gave you a choice. And He's going to let you live with it. End of story.
When did I ever say that you should believe, because I do? I told you that I believe, because it has been proven to me. God has proven Himself. So I believe Him. I trust Him. And what makes me weak about knowing that you've been lied to? I can't prove it, because you're not going to listen. I know that I've found the truth, and I know you're spouting lies. I know it, and you know it. You just can't admit it to yourself.
Lack of evidence isn't proof. And you are merely proving my point. God has proven Himself to me. That's all I need. No one else proved Him to me. No book proved Him to me. He proved Himself. You are a hypocrite, because you can't prove anything that you say, all the while accusing Christians of the inability to prove what they say. Yet, you don't even admit that you have no proof. You even go so far as to claim you do. At least I admit that I can't prove anything to you.
I see no point in making lengthy posts. Even my e-mails are short, and to the point. I don't ramble on in conversation either. You remind me of a scene in the recent movie version of The Cat in the Hat. The fish said something, and the little girl said, "The fish is talking." And the cat said, "But is he really saying anything?"
Prodigal, I'm curious to know how you've calibrated your senses to align with reality. I mean, do you have some kind of a Standard-of-Weights-and-Measures-like standard against which you can check the accuracy of your senses and whether or not they do indeed properly collect auditory, olfactory, visual, savory and tactile data and input them to your brain?
Lighthouse is right, I need to start making these posts a lot smaller.
Clete,
What I believe is what I can demonstrate with my five senses. Not what a book tells me, but what I can physically sense. There's nothing I have to prove. You can't claim the whole pot by saying that everything I have to prove my case on is based upon a biblical worldview whether I believe it or not. Like I said before, you're claiming victory before you even fight the battle. I have nothing to prove, because everything I believe in manifests itself to me in a natural, physical, testable fashion. Your biblical worldview is still a mystery to me, I wish you would just give me a clear, concise definition.
Hilton,
Are you trying to discredit my five senses, or are you trying to plant seeds of doubt? If you're not trying to do either, what are you trying to do? I guess my senses are functioning properly, why wouldn't they be? I still feel pain and pleasure, I can still taste bitter and sweet, and so on and so forth, so everything is working just tip top, if that is in fact the answer you're looking for.
Lighthouse,
AS I ALREADY SAID I WAS A CHRISTIAN FOR TWENTY YEARS. I've said it half a dozen times on this thread and you're the one calling names. I do agree with you, god hasn't made me do anything, and I am responsible for where I'm at. You can't however tell me that god has proven himself to me when I know for a fact that he hasn't. I know for a fact because he hasn't spoken to me, otherwise I would have heard it, he hasn't shown himself to me because I would have seen it, and so on. Lighthouse, my question to you now is, what does god's voice sound like? What does he look like? You're such a good friend of his, give me a description or something.
If it's so darn true, why don't I believe it? If it's so much better than what I believe right now, why am I not convinced? If I don't believe in satan, how does he have power over me if he does in fact exist? If the tenets of christianity are so beautiful and undeniable in their truth, why do I deny it? No doubt any answers I will receive will be insulting in nature, but Ima big boy, I can take it.
Clete,
What I believe is what I can demonstrate with my five senses. Not what a book tells me, but what I can physically sense. There's nothing I have to prove. You can't claim the whole pot by saying that everything I have to prove my case on is based upon a biblical worldview whether I believe it or not. Like I said before, you're claiming victory before you even fight the battle. I have nothing to prove, because everything I believe in manifests itself to me in a natural, physical, testable fashion. Your biblical worldview is still a mystery to me, I wish you would just give me a clear, concise definition.
Hilton,
Are you trying to discredit my five senses, or are you trying to plant seeds of doubt? If you're not trying to do either, what are you trying to do? I guess my senses are functioning properly, why wouldn't they be? I still feel pain and pleasure, I can still taste bitter and sweet, and so on and so forth, so everything is working just tip top, if that is in fact the answer you're looking for.
Lighthouse,
AS I ALREADY SAID I WAS A CHRISTIAN FOR TWENTY YEARS. I've said it half a dozen times on this thread and you're the one calling names. I do agree with you, god hasn't made me do anything, and I am responsible for where I'm at. You can't however tell me that god has proven himself to me when I know for a fact that he hasn't. I know for a fact because he hasn't spoken to me, otherwise I would have heard it, he hasn't shown himself to me because I would have seen it, and so on. Lighthouse, my question to you now is, what does god's voice sound like? What does he look like? You're such a good friend of his, give me a description or something.
If it's so darn true, why don't I believe it? If it's so much better than what I believe right now, why am I not convinced? If I don't believe in satan, how does he have power over me if he does in fact exist? If the tenets of christianity are so beautiful and undeniable in their truth, why do I deny it? No doubt any answers I will receive will be insulting in nature, but Ima big boy, I can take it.
I hate to post so soon again, but there's just a coupla things:
Clete,
My worldview is this: If I can sense it, it's there. If it can be proven to me with tangible, physical evidence, it's there. I know the wind is there because I feel it and I can see what it does (I think Jesus said something like that). I don't know that demons and angels exist because I can't see them or what they do, and there's no way to prove that they exist in the first place. If you have proof that they do exist, please, enlighten me.
Lighthouse,
The stars aren't my friends, but I can see them at least. And yes, gravity is still a theory, but you can test it to prove it's validity. You can't do that with god.
Clete,
My worldview is this: If I can sense it, it's there. If it can be proven to me with tangible, physical evidence, it's there. I know the wind is there because I feel it and I can see what it does (I think Jesus said something like that). I don't know that demons and angels exist because I can't see them or what they do, and there's no way to prove that they exist in the first place. If you have proof that they do exist, please, enlighten me.
Lighthouse,
The stars aren't my friends, but I can see them at least. And yes, gravity is still a theory, but you can test it to prove it's validity. You can't do that with god.