Here we go:
(Clete
By what means do you account for the fact that you can feel, hear, see, taste or touch in the first place? And by what means did your ability to analyze and process those senses come about?)
First of all, my mother and father created me in the same fashion that every other person, including yourself, on this planet is created. I’m not about to go into the details of the birds and the bees, you should know this. But at any rate, my point is, I can account for my five senses because I can demonstrate them. I can smell roses, watch a movie, listen to Weather Report, I can touch a kitten, I can eat my mother’s apple pie. To say that these are all products created by a divine being puts you in the exact same position you were in before, with the burden of proof. You see, I have nothing to prove. You’re the one who makes the claims and has no evidence and proof to back up your claims. You’re claiming (if I’ve heard you correctly) that the existence of logic is proof of god and the validity of christianity. That’s utter nonsense. If I believed that leprechauns left pots of gold at the end of rainbows and used the existence of rainbows as the basis of my belief, it really wouldn’t hold up that well. Once again, you’re claiming the pot without showing your cards.
(what do you base you belief in God on?)
shrug. The fact that any other alternative is even more foolish than a supreme creator. I don’t really like the options, none of them really make sense, but we’re here now, so my question is, is it really that important? I think you’re making mountains out of mole hills. When presented with the options I have to take the one that makes the most sense, or the one that is least foolish. Unfortunately I’ve observed that god is the most likely source. We can’t prove it of course, so I don’t waste too much time thinking about it.
(the existence of such things cannot be explained in a logically coherent manner.)
Um, yeah they can. Keyboards are constructed in factories. My dad makes a living with his job and with the money he earns he provides my family with food. Cause and effect. I don’t see the need to blame everything good in the world on god. Clete, I don’t understand how a biblical worldview explains anything better, maybe you just haven’t explained it well enough, frankly I don’t think you’ve explained it at all. Having a biblical worldview is just as arbitrary as having a hindu worldview, or a Buddhist worldview. My worldview is this: if you can’t prove it, don’t pass it off truth. If you can prove it, than it’s a fact. You say god is the creator of all things, and that’s where stuff like logic or the ability to read or speak comes from, but you have no proof when you pass this perspective off as truth. At best it’s just an idea, backed by nothing more than zealots and a really old book.
(It is you who has the burden of proof, not me)
Once again, you’re wrong. I’m not the one making fantastical claims about deities, the creation of the planet, spirits, zombie messiahs, an archfiend, “sin” and eternal resting places. I deny the existence of many of those things because of the lack of proof. You claim their existence without proof. Once again, you’re selling something you don’t have. You’re claiming the pot without showing your cards. All I want is to see your cards, Clete. If you have proof to back up your claims and to change them from claims to facts, than please, enlighten me.
(Lighthouse
I was not in Christ, for I was unrighteous...born into it)
Your standard for righteousness comes from bible. It’s just an idea, there’s no proof to back up your claims, other than a vague sense of morality for which the bible, religion, even god is unnecessary. You don’t have to have a personal relationship with god in order to be a good person. You don’t have to be saved from yourself by some distant deity. Lighthouse, you had it in you the whole time to save yourself from your petty addictions and you sold yourself short.
(You'd rather trust the stars [who have no sentience] than the One who created them?! That's far more stupid than...a lot of things.)
More stupid than trusting an invisible god to save you from less than desirable habits? Like looking at pictures of naked ladies? Lighthouse, at least I can see the stars. You can’t see god. What a friend you have in Jesus indeed.
(It is the truth. I'm not sure why you refuse to explore it.)
Once again, prove to me that it is the truth, give me something tangible, and I’ll agree with you. You can’t say something is a fact without something to prove it. Newton could demonstrate something as simple as gravity, but you can’t demonstrate something as huge as god. Funny.
(I have seen the truth. You have fallen for one of the greatest lies.)
Oh is that the lie told by the earth god Satan? And you’ve actually seen the truth. All right, I’ll give your story credence for a moment or two. Let’s say everything you say is true, you’ve seen the light, I’ve been lied to and am buying it. Thanks god. Thanks for letting that happen to me. All right, I’m done pretending now. You worship an invisible sadist who will let me burn in hell out of spite but will take the time to ween you off of your porn addiction. Your god’s mood swings are as frantic and random as my ex-girlfriend’s.
(But I would like to know if you think that all men who look at porn are weak.)
I don’t think looking at porn is a good litmus test for weakness. Let’s say, all men who leave their wives for younger girlfriends and move out to LA are weak. Anyone who buys into a system of religion without tangible evidence of it’s validity are weak. Anyone who says they’ve seen the truth, and because of that, I should believe as well is weak. Anyone who says I’ve been lied to, but can’t prove that anything has ever been said to me at all, true or false, is weak and expects the same weakness out of me. You can only fool some of the people, some of the time. I’ve tried christianity, for twenty years I tried it. It doesn’t work for me. The fact that it works for other people is fine, I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again, people are free to believe whatever they want. My quarrel is when the unprovable is passed off as indisputable.
(God has already proven Himself. If you're still denying it, that's your problem.)
Once again, god hasn’t proven anything, and neither have you. I can prove that heaven doesn’t exist simply by virtue of the fact that there’s nothing to prove that it does. An old book does not constitute proof, maybe thin evidence, but not proof. To deny the existence of something that cannot be proven to exist is not a problem Lighthouse. It’s logical. To say that god has proven himself is a problem when god doesn’t speak out loud and when any evidence you have of anything you believe is subjective at best.
You guys must live on the internet or something because all of your posts are short and sweet, mine are always HUGE!
And why would I be afraid of someone who has no power in my life? And why would I be afraid of someplace I'll never go? And I'm not afraid of God, either. I fear Him, but not with a fear that means afraid. It is a holy fear. It is awe. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
