ARCHIVE: I believe religion to be obsolete

[Granite]

"Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."

...ignoring, of course, a remarkably similar verse.

Clete, blowing smoke and putting up mirrors is not a way to win an argument: not here, not in the real world (assuming, of course, that you open your trap in the "real" world). As I've said before, you're a weak sister. People confront and challenge you here, on a bulletin board for crying out loud, and you can't go more than one or two posts without stomping your foot and playing this smarmy Won't Answer the Heathen routine. I assume you're the same paper tiger in person, allowing, of course, for the possibility that a Bible-thumping wannabe stone thrower such as yourself ever ventures to talk to someone in person who might disagree with you.

Clete: Encouraging apostates since 2004!:devil:

 

[Clete]

prodigal,

What I do intend to prove is that you are a liar. The post will take some time to complete so I can't do it here at work, but this last post of yours is inexcusable. The mistake you've made is to forget that you are on a public forum where what has been said by you and others is semi-permanently displayed for all to see.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[prodigal]

Clete,

Man you gotta time your posts better.

My entire point has been that based on your worldview, you wouldn't know a crock if you got smacked in the head with one.

He would because he would be able to examine the evidence once he woke up. That's one thing you can't do. You can't examine god.

Yes!
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Ah, the dodge. Scripture teaches that if the questions are too tough, just close your ears and your mind! Dodging hard questions is part of their doctrine, Granite, it's built into their programming!

How would you know if you had ever heard one or not? How would you go about finding out?

Well, we could go back and read all of your posts and then together we could measure just how sound it was. We could examine the evidence, and test the evidence.

Do that with anything you believe.

If the question is not hypocritical and not logically incoherent, it would be a good start.

When have you ever shown one of our questions to be either? You talk about your four aces a lot Clete, but you've never shown them.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

prodigal,

What I do intend to prove is that you are a liar. The post will take some time to complete so I can't do it here at work, but this last post of yours is inexcusable. The mistake you've made is to forget that you are on a public forum where what has been said by you nad others is semipermantly displayed for all to see.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Oh, heavens. Sounds like Miss Manners is gonna have a good ole fashion hissy fit.

Will you grow up, you limp wrist? Or just grow a thicker skin, one of the two. Christians on TOL can get away with murder, the non's and ex's who offend are banished or get slapped around. Talk about a double standard.

 

[prodigal]

All right, if I screwed up and Clete points it out, I'll take responsibility for it. I won't be happy, but I will have no one to blame but myself.

The suspense is killing me!

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Soulman

I could say the same about you.

But wouldn't.

Is that because you don't say things you believe to be true, or because it is not true?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by dotcom

Lighthouse,

Now answer the second part of my question. Is Islam a religion? According to your understanding of "obsolete", is Islam obsolete?

Yes. Islam is obsolete.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by wickwoman

I saw a debate between Sharpton and Fallwell yesterday morning. Very interesting. It seems the highest incidence of abortion, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc., is to be found in the good ole' Bible Belt. I can show you at least one of each, maybe more in the A of G church I grew up in.

:readthis:

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by prodigal

Ah, my good friend Lighthouse,



LH thanks for clarifying. That’s what I’ve been looking for from the beginning. You have no way to prove to anyone but yourself that your system of belief in god is valid.

I have no system of belief. I have a relationship. And it is not my job to prove God to anyone else. It is their job to find the proof, for themselves. And they will never find it if they do not look.

I dunno, man. I still think it’s a crummy analogy.

How so? You can't see that which is unseeable. You can't smell that which has no smell. You can't hear that which does not speak. You can't taste that which has no taste. And you can't touch that which is intangible.

Than it’s not free. If it’s restricted in the least than it’s not free.

There are no restrictions. Did you even read the rest of what i typed? At this point, I can not stop believing in Jesus, because I have met Him, and I know Him. I have found the proof. That's not a restriction of free will.

We’ll just have to wait and see.

Put up or shut up.

Hey, is it always a battle around here for the last word, or is this just a peculiar situation?

This is a debating forum. What did you expect?

While you’re in the corner Aimiel, you can answer my hypothetical question. Lighthouse refuses to because the thought of such a hypothetical situation caused him to ball up in a little hyper-ventilating ball of self-loathing and simultaneous god adoring nail biting panic.

Nothing you have said has done any such thing. I know that Christ is there, so I know you can not prove He isn't. I can not think about hypotheticals that are impossible. I can not remove myself from my belief in Christ, because I know Him.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by prodigal

I know I just posted, but I found this and couldn't help but laugh. Maybe someone else will find it funny too.



Oh yeah.

Two different instances.

 

[Soulman]

Aimiel, you haven't had a lot to say until now, just thought you went way out of your way for the satisfaction of stepping on someone's toe. Doin' the best I can, bro'. What's next? Heckling a lame man for walking with a limp?

There's probably lots of things I don't say that I believe to be true. In fact, I'm not saying one of them right now, just to spite you. I sometimes say things that aren't true, but lying's not always a sin, you kidder.

Least, that's what the Bible says...

Soulman

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

"Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."

...ignoring, of course, a remarkably similar verse.

You mean the very next verse right, or didn't you know it was the very next verse? I ignore nothing; I simply apply the appropriate verse at the appropriate time.

Clete, blowing smoke and putting up mirrors is not a way to win an argument: not here, not in the real world (assuming, of course, that you open your trap in the "real" world). As I've said before, you're a weak sister. People confront and challenge you here, on a bulletin board for crying out loud, and you can't go more than one or two posts without stomping your foot and playing this smarmy Won't Answer the Heathen routine. I assume you're the same paper tiger in person, allowing, of course, for the possibility that a Bible-thumping wannabe stone thrower such as yourself ever ventures to talk to someone in person who might disagree with you.

You are stupid. If I am blowing smoke, expose the error in my argument. If you cannot do that then in what way am I blowing smoke?
And for the record, I speak to people in person, the exact same way I do here, the exact same way. It has gotten be booted out of more than Sunday school class and at least one church and almost cost me a job at one point. I am not afraid of the consequences of my actions or my words. I have, on occasion, stepped over the line here on TOL because the Internet does sometimes have the unfortunate tendency of lowering once inhibitions, but I have also been quick to recant such over the line statements when they have been legitimately brought to my attention. None of which is of any consequence in regards to the current discussion. The simple fact is that I couldn't care less whether or not you like me, or respect me, or think I'm a nice guy, or whatever. Nice is not in the Bible and it is, therefore, not a character trait which I give a hoot about. What I do care about is the truth, honesty, and integrity (both intellectual and personal).
Now, if you are quite through making the "Clete isn't a nice guy and so he must be wrong" argument and wish to demonstrate the error of my argument is any exists then I'll be happy to continue.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Around the barn with prodigal one more time...

Originally posted by prodigal
He would because he would be able to examine the evidence once he woke up. That's one thing you can't do. You can't examine god.

Examine the evidence how, with his ears and mind maybe?

Ah, the dodge.

My truck is a Chevy, thank you!

Scripture teaches that if the questions are too tough, just close your ears and your mind!

How would you or Soulman know that your ears were conveying accurate information? How do you know your mind is working like it's supposed to? How do you know that you're not insane, or imagining all this that you call life?

Dodging hard questions is part of their doctrine, Granite, it's built into their programming!

Liar.

Well, we could go back and read all of your posts and then together we could measure just how sound it was. We could examine the evidence, and test the evidence.

Test it by what means? By what standard to you measure its soundness by?

Do that with anything you believe.

This can be done without logical incoherence in the Biblical worldview, but not in yours, that's the point.

When have you ever shown one of our questions to be either? You talk about your four aces a lot Clete, but you've never shown them.

This is one huge Ace you silly man!
If my questions are hypocritical then show me how so. If you cannot do that then answer them. If you cannot do that either then you have no basis upon which to make judgments about my worldview because you have no means by which to determine whether anything is right or wrong in the fist place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. This is not the post which you are waiting with baited breath for, that one will probably have to wait till tomorrow.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Prodigal--I have not threatened you with hell. I said nothing about hell-fire and brimstone. I merely made note of the fact that in this life one of God's most common forms of judgement is to leave men to themselves, removing His restraint from them so they are left to their own nature. The outcome is evident.

In their eternity without God, men will be forever without any of His assistance. In ourselves we are all alike. Anything in us that is better than Hitler, Stalin or Jeffery Dahmer stems not from our being any better in ourselves, but in a measure of grace He gives to enable us to live more regulated lives. Do you suppose that you are, in yourself, better than anyone else?? If so, remember this verse--"It is God who makes us to differ." "What do you have that you did not receive; and if you received it, why do you boast as if it weren't given to you?"

If you study the Bible closely, you will find that very often God uses the wickedness of men to bring judgement upon them. That is meant to teach us what we are in ourselves so that we may come to our senses and realize the horror of wickedness that binds us. If in this life we do not escape those bonds through Christ, we will be forever beyond hope of any redemption from the power of indwelling evil. Forever without Christ is to be forever subject to the uttermost depths of our own evil nature.
Those who jest about salvation need to realize that to be without it is, in eternity, to be given over to the horrors of the evil we never imagined to be in us.

Learn to realize the evil of sin and the wretchedness it brings upon yourself and other men in this life. Then flee to Christ for deliverance from ways of transgression or you will in taste its bitter fruit forever in eternity. That is not an attempt to terrorize you. It is merely a statement of fact, and you should appreciate someone letting you know in advance.

 

[Royal_Lion04]

Originally posted by dotcom
Without the concept of God?

It doesn’t matter if it has a concept of God or not, it's man made. As Lighthouse said: Many religions are based on false concepts of God, including denominations within modern Christianity.

Originally posted by dotcom
Sounds like the heretical new age movement to me.

It sounds to me like you need to learn more about what the new age movement believes! What I said was exactly the opposite of the new age movement's beliefs.

Originally posted by dotcom
Just testify nothing you do is good enough, because you cannot include everybody religious in your shortcomings and testimony.
Making a conclusion that religion does not work is a denial of reality and living a life of deception.

Apparently you did not read the scripture I quoted: Romans 3:21-26. Or you chose to ignore it. I have several other scriptures if you care to read them. Or would I be wasting my time to post them?

Tell me what you can do by your own power to get into Heaven!

Correct answer: Accept the free gift of God!

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is etrnal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

[Balder]

:sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep: :sheep:

 

[Soulman]

Peacemaker:

It isn't porn, you must admit. So while I won't try to foist the concepts of rape, incest, etc. on my child, I would not freak if she picked up the Book as a 12 year old, or something.

And if it was some “other” book, telling the same stories, claiming they were true, and seeking followers?

The details of any given encounter are not written like a detailed movie script.

I admit that much of the Bible is, at best, “soft” porn, leaving the “details” to our imaginations. But I’m not just talking about the “sexual” immorality routinely depicted in the Bible. Compared to the level of serial moral depravity achieved by the Levite, the rape scene was rather tame.

Soulman, do you count yourself above anyone else? If you do, don't bother with the Bible. The Bible is for bad people. Or, for people to see who they truly are. if you haven't hit "rock bottom", you don't really know yourself yet.

Well, some people are “badder” than others, wouldn’t you say? Put it this way. I have the “potential” to commit individual acts of moral depravity, same as you. Strangely, though, speaking for myself, I come nowhere near the depths of the duplicity and moral depravity demonstrated on a regular basis by the Bible’s “heroes of the faith” -- and I’m not even trying! I think most of us could say the same thing. If you have never raped or murdered, yes, Peacemaker, you are “morally superior” -- to rapists and murderers! Which seems self-evident.

You seem to be implying that even though someone has NOT raped, or NOT murdered, they are nonetheless “latent” rapists, or “potential” murderers, “capable” of and therefore “morally equivalent” to and almost (but not quite) as “guilty” as those that have. In a view of the world based on the Bible, it’s not necessary to HIT bottom. We’re born on the bottom.

Because, I don't want to read it to them and have massive concepts fly over their heads, or unnecessarily disturb them. They need to first attain a certain level of complexity, laying the foundation for the knowledge they will receive.

What “massive concepts” are you referring to ? The story seems pretty straightforward to me.

Thanks for engaging.

Soulman

 

[Clete]

Prodigal,

I had wanted to do a lot more with this post than I am going to, or at least I'm not going to go into the detail that I had envisioned, it would simply take too long and it wouldn't yield enough benefit to make it worth spending the time. With that having been said, here's the abbreviated version of how you intentionally have dove off the cliff into irrationality and have therefore lost this debate.

First, you showed promise with post 102
This is the last post were you showed even the slightest degree of intellectual honesty.

Later, Jim all but won the debate with post 149
In which he quotes where you admit that you cannot answer the very same questions about your own worldview that you insist that Christianity cannot answer.

Then in post 151 you begin by showing clearly that you do understand the argument but then begin pretending not to understand the argument again. This is the point where you officially lost the debate.

Jim nailed the coffin shut with post 155
You have never recovered from this post. Virtually everything since has been repeating what occurred up to this point.

The simple fact is that you have no way of knowing anything, by your own admission. This includes of course your so called knowledge that Christianity cannot be proven. You literally cannot even know that your challenge makes any sense, for all you know you've just challenged the sky to turn blue.

What you should have done was to say, "Okay Jim, I see your point, I don't have the means to validate anything that I think I know based on the presuppositions inherent to my present worldview, you seem to be suggesting that the Christian worldview provides a way of doing this, if this is so, please explain. How does a Biblical worldview allow me to know for certain that I'm not hallucinating when I look at the sky and see blue?" Instead, you ignore the point and pretend that Jim and I are magicians who are adept at linguistic slight of hand and are trying to trick you or divert attention away from the topic at hand. You stubbornly cling to a belief which you cannot validate or prove is true in any what whatsoever, the very thing which you accuse Christians of doing. You are a hypocrite, pure and simple, and I have proven that much at least, which was the whole point of my having gotten involved in this thread in the first place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Granite]

Well, I'm certainly relieved to know that Miss Manners doesn't feel she's wasted her time here.

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Clete:

One or more independent witnesses can verify for Prodigal any of his senses and this evidence would stand up in a court of law. Maybe a study of the rules of evidence for your state would help you understand what is needed to prove something.