ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
The evangelical church will probably become the ov's best stronghold with it's emphasis on the personhood God. Also the ov makes sense coming from scriptures. For better or for worse (and indeed for both better and worse) the evangelical church is truly a church of laymen and given that and the scriptural obviousness (even if you argue that that obviousness is superficial) there will always be evangelical ov'ers. All we have to do is get the information out and many such as myself with strong evangelical tendencies will latch on to it inas much as they latch on arminianism.
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
second post, scroll up

think of the hostility and distain that that theistic evolutionists and young earth creationists in the evangelical church have for each other. Each one thinks that the other is so obviously wrong and neither position is going anywhere soon. This deal with the open view is no different (except major proponents of the open view are not interested in hostility).
 

Jaltus

New member
The problem is that the OV has very few upper eschelon proponents in ETS and other major evangelical organizations, and two of the three biggest voices in the "evangelical wolrd," namely Piper and Stott, are firmly against the OV.

I think much of what happens the next 5 years at ETS will decide the issue.
 

geoff

New member
well said Jaltus.

Edgar,

I wasnt saying how I treated anyone, I was asking you a question.

1013,

The evangelical church will reject OV, because a, it isnt biblical, b, it isnt logical, and c, it isnt evangelical.
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
geoff,

I did answer your question. I was just thinking that you might be treating me that way. But if I was wrong, again, my apology. So you dont treat me like a JW, or do you?

With the love of the Lord,
Edgar
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
Hi Jaltus,

You said,
I think much of what happens the next 5 years at ETS will decide the issue.

Maybe Im wrong with this: do you mean it will take 5 years for ETS (what is ETS by the way?) to remove from the Scriptures the 25 "mind-changing passages" concerning God? Man, that's too long a time for 25 passages!
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
As long as the evangelical community doesn't find out what bitter old cranks some of these guys are, such as RC Spoul Jr. who prayed that God would destroy the open theists, perhaps you are right.

And how about the divisive Calvinists who don't even consider the Arminians to be Christians such as Michael Horton. Could you imagine if Greg Boyd said that Calvinists weren’t Christians?

If we’re interested in purging the ets of dangerous and disturbing trends (evangelicals just love dangerous and disturbing trends), aren’t we going after the wrong people?

A lot of theologians don't care for these gung ho militant Calvinists and many of them such as my Hebrew prof who is not an ov'er think that this point of view is worthy of scholarly endeavor and tolerance in the ETS. They made a significant stand in at the ets when they put it to a vote.

"We believe the Bible clearly teaches that God has complete, accurate, and infallible knowledge of all events past, present, and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents," the statement read. The resolution passed 253 to 66, with 41 members abstaining.

consider that a wopping 26 percent of evangelical theologians voted against the notion that the bible clearly teaches edf. 42 percent refused to vote for the statement. Its not a majority. What it is is significant. And it was a failure for what was attempted. The Calvinists were hoping for a 90 percent vote in favor of the statement and had they gotten it, they would’ve asked the leading proponents of the Open view to leave.

If the ets kicked out every minority view, it would get smaller and smaller because the evangelical church is very diverse and full of minorities.

Probably most of those who voted against the statement weren’t even open theists, but you can be sure that they are not interested in the political shiftings, divisiveness and virtual mccarthyism of many of the anti ov’ers.

Edgar, the ETS is the Evangelical Theological Society.
 
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geoff

New member
Edgar,

There is no need to remove any 25 passages, because there is no 25 passages which actually show God changing. There are passages revealing God is a person with emotions, God doing what He said He would do, God interacting with His creation... but not one that proves God 'doesnt know' something and has to change.

We can go back and forth back and forth... however, the typical OV stance is to reject non OV understandings on the basis that it is 'based in Greek Philosophy', Calvinistic, presuppositional, Augustinian, Lutheran, etc etc.
Because you/they have rejected the evidence BEFORE the discussion starts, there is no argument. It doesnt matter how true, or irrefutable the evidence is before you, it has already been rejected.
IN 1013's case, he reserves the right to reject ANY evidence on the basis that 'he doesnt think we are thinking correctly'.

So whats the point Edgar? You'll probably say 'no that isnt me' - however you have already done it... Same with DrD.
 

KcOrTaM

New member
1013, could you point me to the source of your info re Sproul's prayer? and what do you think calling him a "bitter old crank" will serve to do in the situation?

and the source of the Horton comment...

I just like to check this kinda stuff out myself, if possible......
 
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Edgar Caiña

New member
What's going on in the evangelical community is too bad. It's really odd that other Christians are labelled unbeliever or heretical just because they believe what the Scriptures says. It just came into my mind that in a particular book, RC Sproul was quoted saying that Clark Pinnock is NO LONGER a Christian. How could a Calvinist say that? NO LONGER a Christian?
 

geoff

New member
The book was probably written by an OV'er and it probably didnt say it... of course, we'll never know.

As I said before, you wouldnt call a muslim a Christian, because you dont believe they worship the same God, nor a JW, or a Mormon, because they dont have the same Jesus you do. So Its quite a valid claim.
 

1013

Post Modern Fundamentalist
Sproul concluded his essay in a book that he contributed to, Bound Only Once : The Failure of Open Theism (I think thats the book, unless there's another collection of essays against the open view with Sproul Jr. as a contributer, which I doubt) with something like "may God destroy these idolotrous thoughts and those who think them".

As for Horton, I think I've read that of him in an essay, it might've been the one that John Sanders presented to the most recent ETS convention, but I'm not sure, so feel free to suspend judgement of him on that account.

and what do you think calling him a "bitter old crank" will serve to do in the situation?

what does it serve to call someone a bitter old crank who calls upon God to destroy his Christian brothers? It serves the purpose of accuracy I think. :D
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
You didn't get my point, geoff. What I was saying was, if RC did say that (but as you've said, we never know), RC was just being INCONSISTENT with his doctrinal make up. Why? For him to say Pinnock is no longer a Christian is to say Pinnock LOST his salvation which Calvinists don't believe as possible.
 
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geoff

New member
edgar,

No, he could be saying that Pinnock WAS NEVER a christian, which is completely consistant with Calvinist theology.
 

Jaltus

New member
ETS is the Evangelical Theological Society, of which I am a member, as are Pinnock, Boyd, and Sanders.

What I am saying is that theological discussions take about 7-10 years to go all the way through their cycle, which means about another 5 years for this issue. In the end, either the above mentioned will be expelled from the ETS (for not holding to inerrancy), will come back into the fold, or else OV will be considered within the fold of evangelical beliefs (the last one I truly doubt will happen).

I find it funny that Calvinists are so quick to call everyone else a heretic. They really need to read the NT some more and see how heresy is defined, or else read Craig Blomberg's essay on Heresy in the NT.
 

Jaltus

New member
RC Jr is just riding his father's coattails. Ignore him, since he ignores the Bible. (not a knock on Calvinists, just on Jr.)
 

Edgar Caiña

New member
Jaltus,

What if Boyd, et al. (say) are finally expelled from ETS, would that mean they are no longer Christians in the eyes of ETS?
 
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