ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[drdeutsch]

Well,
I thought I'd give it a shot.

I am, in the end, inclined to agree with 1013 and everyone else here who refuses to "discuss" things with Geoff.

I feel sorry for the members of his church that question something he brought up in a sermon.

I can see there are plenty of other threads here.
God bless you all,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[Surly-DwarF]

First thing,

Edgar and drdeutsch. Geoff isn’t a bad guy. He is strongly anti-OV and doesn’t hesitate to say what he really thinks, and I think you guys may be feeling a bit oversensitive due to that fact. Not that he needs or wants me to defend him. Of course, we’re all human and don’t always act with the greatest charity towards others, especially those we have strong areas of disagreement with. But moving on…

Geoff Contrary to what Surly said (sorry surly) - you can NOT equate predestination and foreknowledge. To do so gives foreknowledge the property of causation, and it can not, and does not have that property, as is easily demonstrated.

Geoff,

If I equated them, it was not my intent. Looking back at what I said, I don’t think I did. I just meant that it’s really difficult to discuss one without the other. Of course, I agree that foreknowledge doesn’t = causation. Let me try to explain what I meant. If we consider God and what He knows prior to Creation, and grant that He has foreknowledge of everything that will come to pass, whether those things will be caused by Him directly or freely performed by creatures, then if He proceeds and effectuates that potential creation, by virtue of His certain foreknowledge, everything that comes to pass has been predestined. When there was just God and He knew everything that would happen after He set the Creation in motion, at the “point” (if we can call it that) that He decided to actually bring the world into being, it was predestined. So, in other words, they're NOT the same thing, but you can't have predestination without foreknowledge.

Mike

 

[1013]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

I don't think your view flys with this second article on God's eternal decree in the westminster confession, which is alright if you don't adhere to it. But it is a calvinist standard

 

[1013]

2nd post, scroll up

I am, in the end, inclined to agree with 1013 and everyone else here who refuses to "discuss" things with Geoff.

my decision not to talk with Geoff is based on a specific history. Some of the things between me and Geoff that have precipited my decision not to discuss things with him have not necessarily gone on in this thread. If you feel geoff has shown good reason for avoidance in this thread, that's fine, but don't let what little I've said influence you.

I thought I'd give it a shot.

It's always worth a shot.

 

[geoff]

DRD..

If you dont want to talk to me, thats fine.. However, ask yourself this... what have I really done to upset you?

The ONLY thing I have really done is not believe that there is any truth in the OV. And that seems to have upset you. I have also been a little sarcastic, but thats just me, if you cant handle it, then dont talk to me.

Mike (Surly)

yeah, you're fairly right there. I really didnt think that you equated them, I was just making a point in order to prevent DrD and Edgar from having the opportunity to argue straw men. Thanks for your clarification, its a beautiful statement of compatibilism

Oh yeah, as Mike said, I am ANTI-OV. That does not mean I am anti you. However, because you are OV you will always percieve my comments as being against you personally. Sorry but thats your problem. I am not going stop showing how wrong OV is for that reason. If you cant learn to differentiate between them yourselves, then you really should keep out of theological debate.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

what have I really done to upset you?

I never said you did.

that seems to have upset you.

Lemme see, Geoff.
Rule #1: It is false and irrational to lump people into general groups. (e.g. upset, happy, etc.)
Rule #2: Don't call me upset unless you can prove that I am.

because you are OV you will always percieve my comments as being against you personally.

I never took your comments personally. Please don't "read into it meaning that isn't there."

I'm not anti-you, either, Geoff. I just came here to learn. Yes, I am OV. I've done some research and it fits a lot better than other views. I was raised Catholic. I was also Calvinist for awhile. Then I was introduced to OV and it fits the best, in my opinion. I do find it hard to argue with you because you, in my opinion, dance around the subject and play games and accuse people of falsely accusing you. It may be so, but it makes it difficult to have a civilized discussion.

Anyway, there are many threads here and lots of information to consider and digest.
Take it easy,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

lol...

thats hilarious really...

well go and have fun elsewhere

 

[Edgar Caiña]

I've read the email debate between John Sanders (OV) and Chris Hall (non-OV) and they provided an example of how a Christian dialogue should be handled between non-OV'er and OV'er. That debate was excellently handled by them.

I guess the problem here was the way things were handled. I admit that I for one made a mistake. I think that we can't have a fruitful discussion when we let our temperament comes out in the discussions which sometimes could easily be felt by others even by using a single word.

I also believe that no single person here could ever claim that he has all the answers to everything, and because of that let's allow the principle of "free market of ideas" here.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Hi Surly,

You said

whether those things will be caused by Him directly or freely performed by creatures,

I just want to ask if free act is included in the decree of God, because if it is, how could it be said a free performance? Could you please enlightened me on this?

Blessings,
Edgar

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Hey guys, here's something to cool down the atmosphere here a bit:

The day came when an OVer stands before the LORD in judgment.

LORD: I pronounce you guilty and you'll be punished for believing that I change My mind!

OVer: But LORD, I just believed what is in the Book. I just believed those many passages of scripture that says you change your mind.

LORD: Oh, you believed them! But I didn't mean it that way!

OVer: (aghast) You didn't mean it that way?!! You mean it's nottrue?!! And what did you mean by those?

LORD: I meant the OPPOSITE!

OVer: You mean, You don't change Your mind? You mean, what you were saying was the opposite? :noid:

LORD: Yeah, exactly, the opposite!

OVer: Oh, LORD, I love you even more and I praise you indeed! :kiss:

LORD: But why praise Me? I'm going to send you to hell for believing such!! (obviously, an exaggeration)

OVer: Because NOW, I KNOW what you mean is the OPPOSITE!!

 

[geralduk]

AS A MAN SOWS,THAT WILL HE REAP.

The seed will produce after its own kind.

Those who sow to the flesh will reap its corruption and death.

Those who sow to the Spirit will reap peace and life.

Now there is a subtle condemantion of God when some sugest that its wrong for God to predestine some to destruction.

As If man has without God has ANY OTHER end but death!

For the wages of sin is death!

Therefore the 'arguemnt' is NOT about wether this or that one is destined for life or judgement.

But a self justifacation and a denial of the rightous judgemnt of God!

There is NO hope in this world OTHER than the Hope that God has given which is the sure and certain hope that si in Christ.
For the promises of God are year and amen in CHIST Jesus.

Therefore.

If any do not CHOOSE freely that hope offered and freely done so by God then the END which is the result of sin is a PREDETERMINED end.

But "WHOSOEVER" BELIEVES will also enter into that PREDETERMINED end which is to ALL that are WILLING to come to a knowledge of the truth and freely give of themsleves to God which is thier RIGHTFULL service.
To THEM is liFE AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY.

No man can condemn God for setting out the way of rightousness.
Nor for giving men the way of life and the way of death before Him.
But if you want to know what GOD 'S WILL is.He says CHOOSE LIFE!
So to choose other than life you any or all have to go CONTRARY to the WILL of God!

 

[geoff]

Edgar,

I have never said that believing the open view condemns a man to hell.

However, I very much doubt that the god the open view has created is really the God who created the universe, so I guess thought would have a huge bearing on it... if you think that means a person (like a JW, Mormon, Muslim etc) isnt saved, thats up to you...

Personally I think OV is a cult.

Can someone translate for me, I think Gerry's speaking in tongues again

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Hi geoff,

Im very sure you didn't say that. That's only a joke, man! That's why I said in parenthesis "obviously, an exaggeration." Of course, I don't believe anyone believing OV will go to hell, because our salvation is by the grace of God through our genuine faith in Him.

Well, if you find OV as a cult it's up to you also, but so far, I've never encountered one from OV camp as conceited as other people in their beliefs. So far, I feel very at home with any OV I met. Hope you'll find that experience also.

Be assured that though we differ so greatly here (OV), I'm still reading your other posts and learning from them as well...

Have a nice day, geoff and God bless.

 

[1013]

It gave me a chuckle Edgar

from gerald
But "WHOSOEVER" BELIEVES will also enter into that PREDETERMINED end which is to ALL that are WILLING to come to a knowledge of the truth and freely give of themsleves to God which is thier RIGHTFULL service.
To THEM is liFE AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY.

Amen.

 

[geoff]

edgar,

so, what your saying is I am conceited, because I am not an open viewer?

Or in fact, that non Open Viewers are generally conceited, and Open Viewers generally not?

hahahahahahah

btw, I dont 'think' OV is a cult, I KNOW it is a cult.
Its a cult in the same sense that Mormonism is, or the Jewhovahs witness'. Not in the sense that Israel's religion is called a 'cult'.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by geoff
edgar,

so, what your saying is I am conceited, because I am not an open viewer?

Or in fact, that non Open Viewers are generally conceited, and Open Viewers generally not?

hahahahahahah

Well, that's not what I'm saying. I have other people in mind.

btw, I dont 'think' OV is a cult, I KNOW it is a cult.
Its a cult in the same sense that Mormonism is, or the Jewhovahs witness'. Not in the sense that Israel's religion is called a 'cult'.

Well, you can brand us anyway you want to. You can brand us cult or whatever. But Geoff, I learned one very important thing during my 20 years as a follower of Jesus Christ, and that is to love others inspite of what they believe in. And as an OVer, I'm here to accept you as my brother in Christ since He also died for you, and if you really have trusted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, man, Im excited to see you someday in heaven if we won't have any oppurtunity to meet here on earth. In heaven, if you can put on something with your avatar on it, that would be great, I can easily identify you. Love you, brother!
:kiss:

 

[geoff]

Edgar, would you say the same to a JW who comes to your door... welcome him in as a Brother in Christ?

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by geoff
Edgar, would you say the same to a JW who comes to your door... welcome him in as a Brother in Christ?

Well, let me see... I'll play safe. If the person confesses Jesus as his Lord, God and Savior and that he/she believes that only Jesus can save him/her by the grace of God and that by his/her life he/she shows the fruit of repentance from sin, then whatever "cult" he/she may belong to, to me it doesn't matter. I will love him in the Lord, for there are saved people in other religious groups who are just waiting to be triggered to leave their "cult" group.

Geoff, are you saying you treat me like a JW? Are you saying that because I am OV that nullifies my true faith in Christ as far as you are concerned? Man, if that's what you're saying, better visit the place I live and ask every single child, boy, girl, man, and woman in our community about who Edgar is to them (im not bragging about myself, but they may serve as a better witness to my Christinaity than my being OV)... or even the dogs and the cats in our house. On the other hand, I dont treat you as an unbeliever, for in your other posts, you seemed to be one good believer of Him... that's the reason why I accept you as my brother in Christ... you're being non-OV (or much better, anti-OV) doesn't matter to me.

 

[1013]

Interesting cult that meets in Lutheran, various evangelical, catholic, and reformed churches and feels doctrinally at home in those groups and shares in their communities.

 

[Jaltus]

I do not think that OV is a cult, I think it is just a heterodox belief that will be quickly defeated, and those that still hold to it will leave the more evangelical churches.

However, I think time needs to be taken to explore the issues.