ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[Delmar]

The problem with that third option is that according to it Christ has allready atoned for their sins, meaning that if God punishes them by sending them to hell He has twice punished that sin, making Him unjust. If the price was allready paid for their sin, and all of their sin, then there is no judgment. Either payment was not made for ALL sins, or payment was not made for ALL men. If payment was made for ALL sins for ALL men then either universalism is true or God is unjust.

Go back and read post # 136 by pastorkevin. It is God who told us that forgiveness is conditional on believing. I think He has a little better understanding of what is just than you do!

 

[Delmar]

You state that either limited atonement, or universal atonement must be true but you left out the why . The why not is the fact that atonement, while it is unlimited, (that is to say provided for all) is clearly conditional. Faith is the condition and everybody knows it! The limited atonement camp allows for this condition by claiming God only gives faith to the elect. The Universalists allow for this condition by claiming God will eventually get around to granting faith to everyone. The third option is, that God allows those who despise him not to believe.

No I am not saying that Knight is not saved. As far as I know Knight legitimately trusts in the atoning work of Jesus for his salvation and does not seem to rest on his own work.

There it is again! You show us that you understand that the condition for receiving "the atoning work of Jesus" is to trust ....

But he and the OVers preach a false doctrine, though I am sure you really believe it.

... Then you turn around immediately and call it a false doctrine!

 

[Berean Todd]

... Then you turn around immediately and call it a false doctrine!

No the false doctrine is that we can do it on our own. Left to our own NOONE chooses God. It is a matter of the order of salvation that we understand differently. In the Calvinist view no man left to our own will ever choose God. Therefore, for His own purposes and by His own will God has elected some of us. Those whom He has elected the Spirit will draw. When the Spirit does regenerate that person then, it is at that point that we are able to place our trust and faith in Christ (and invariably anybody who has thus been enlightened will respond in faith to God, it is the natural and only response - irresistable grace). You see regeneration as following faith, we see it as a nescasary, though perhaps immediate predasessor to it.

 

[Delmar]

No the false doctrine is that we can do it on our own. Left to our own NOONE chooses God. It is a matter of the order of salvation that we understand differently. In the Calvinist view no man left to our own will ever choose God. Therefore, for His own purposes and by His own will God has elected some of us. Those whom He has elected the Spirit will draw. When the Spirit does regenerate that person then, it is at that point that we are able to place our trust and faith in Christ (and invariably anybody who has thus been enlightened will respond in faith to God, it is the natural and only response - irresistable grace). You see regeneration as following faith, we see it as a nescasary, though perhaps immediate predasessor to it.

I know of no one who believes that anybody chooses God without first being drawn! You are not telling the truth about what people who believe in free will believe.

 

[Berean Todd]

I know of no one who believes that anybody chooses God without first being drawn. You are not telling the truth about what people who believe in free will believe.

First off, I didn't say just that the Spirit draws them. I said that the Spirit regenerates them. The unregenerate are unable to accept Christ. In Calvinistic understanding you have an order of salvation of:

Regeneration
Faith/Trust = Justification/Salvation
Sanctification

In Arminian and Open View theologies you have:

Faith/Trust=Justification/Salvation
Regeneration
Sanctification

Now perhaps some would argue and say that the regeneration happens at the same time as justification, but the point is that in the Calvinistic understanding Regeneration by the Spirit preceeds faith.

I also take offense at your saying I misrepresent the free-will view. You guys do such a pathetic job of trying to draw lines that don't exist to make your side look superior. Calvinists believe in free-will every bit as much as you do, we do not deny free-will in the least little bit. We just do not believe in your definition and meaning of libertine free-will.

 

[Delmar]

First off, I didn't say just that the Spirit draws them. I said that the Spirit regenerates them. The unregenerate are unable to accept Christ. In Calvinistic understanding you have an order of salvation of:

Regeneration
Faith/Trust = Justification/Salvation
Sanctification

In Arminian and Open View theologies you have:

Faith/Trust=Justification/Salvation
Regeneration
Sanctification

Now perhaps some would argue and say that the regeneration happens at the same time as justification, but the point is that in the Calvinistic understanding Regeneration by the Spirit preceeds faith.

OK, I think I understand your clarifcation and I simpy disagree on this point

I also take offense at your saying I misrepresent the free-will view.

Take offense all you want but this is what you said!

No the false doctrine is that we can do it on our own. Left to our own NOONE chooses God...

No Arminian and no OVer that I know of believes that we choose God on our own! This is the lie that you repeat over and over and over, then you have the nerve to accuse us of "of trying to draw lines that don't exist" STOP IT!

You guys do such a pathetic job of trying to draw lines that don't exist to make your side look superior. Calvinists believe in free-will every bit as much as you do, we do not deny free-will in the least little bit. We just do not believe in your definition and meaning of libertine free-will.

 

[Berean Todd]

No Arminian and no OVer that I know of believes that we choose God on our own!

If you want to play semantics, but the point is you believe that all people are able to respond to God if they so choose. That is untrue. Romans, and the OT tells us that NO ONE seeks God, 1 Cor 1-2 tells us that natural man can't even understand the Gospel, let alone respond to it, Eph 2 tells us that in our natural state we are spriitually DEAD. Jesus in the Gospel of John tells us that a. unless the Father draws someone no one comes to God b. the one drawn WILL come (i.e. all must not be drawn) and c. that the one who comes He will surely keep (preservation of the saints).

Unless the Spirit first regenerates you (which is done for the elect) then no one would choose God.

 

[Delmar]

If you want to play semantics, but the point is you believe that all people are able to respond to God if they so choose. That is untrue. Romans, and the OT tells us that NO ONE seeks God, 1 Cor 1-2 tells us that natural man can't even understand the Gospel, let alone respond to it, Eph 2 tells us that in our natural state we are spriitually DEAD. Jesus in the Gospel of John tells us that a. unless the Father draws someone no one comes to God b. the one drawn WILL come (i.e. all must not be drawn) and c. that the one who comes He will surely keep (preservation of the saints).

Unless the Spirit first regenerates you (which is done for the elect) then no one would choose God.

The Gospel of John tells us that no one will come unless they are drawn ... Then just a few chapters later the Gospel of John tells us that Jesus said " I will draw" all men unto me. You can claim I am not interpreting this correctly but when you make the claim that I think "all people are able to respond to God" on thier own it is you, who is playing semantics!

edit
Oh by the way. The Bible says no one will come ... unless they are drawn. It does not say they can not come unless they are first regenerated. You sucked that part out of your thumb!

 

[Delmar]

Todd
Just so you know I do not believe that anyone can choose to believe, at least not at any time. I believe that all people have or will be drawn by the spirit, at some point in their life! I also believe that some people who rejected God when the spirt drew them were remade into vessels of dishonor their heart became hard and those people may never again have the chance to believe.

 

[Agape4Robin]

Todd
Just so you know I do not believe that anyone can choose to believe. I believe that people have or will be drawn by the spirit, at some point in their life! I also believe that some people who rejected God when the spirt drew them were remade into vessels of dishonor their heart became hard and those people may never again have the chance to believe.

:shocked: Wow.........DD............we agree.

 

[Delmar]

:shocked: Wow.........DD............we agree.

See, that was easy... and it only took a few years

 

[docrob57]

The Gospel of John tells us that no one will come unless they are drawn ... Then just a few chapters later the Gospel of John tells us that Jesus said " I will draw" all men unto me. You can claim I am not interpreting this correctly but when you make the claim that I think "all people are able to respond to God" on thier own it is you, who is playing semantics!

edit
Oh by the way. The Bible says no one will come ... unless they are drawn. It does not say they can not come unless they are first regenerated. You sucked that part out of your thumb!

Good points (except for the thumb part). The question of when regeneration occurs is critical to the debate. Put the verses that you have quoted together with these:

Mt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? 23 And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And, of course there is lot's more. But when we consider verses such as these together with ones that you cited, a picture begins to emerge. Yes many are called (drawn) but few are chosen. Who does the choosing? And why? Jesus tells many who think that they belong to him that He never knew them. Doesn't this suggest also that it is God who chooses and not us?

Romans 8 clearly talks of election and predestination. As you suggest, I know there are different interpretations (however, even the Arminians claim that there exists an elect which were known from before Creation), but again, look at the order of events. First the calling, then the justification. Now that is consistent with what both of us say. But take it a step further. We are justified faith. Where does the faith come from? The verse in Hebrews (and similar verses in the epistles) make it clear that faith itself is a gift of God. It isn't something that we have on our own. Clearly, not all have faith. So who does? Those who God chooses to give it to. It isn't that we believe and then God gives us faith. God gives us faith, and then we believe.

You are right in that the Bible does not say explicitly that we cannot come unless we are first regenerated, however, it also doesn't explicitly say that God is "triune." Both ideas are clearly present, however.

 

[docrob57]

Another interesting one . . . John 10:26

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Note that Jesus does not say you are not of my sheep because you do not believe.

 

[Delmar]

Good points (except for the thumb part). The question of when regeneration occurs is critical to the debate. Put the verses that you have quoted together with these:









And, of course there is lot's more. But when we consider verses such as these together with ones that you cited, a picture begins to emerge. Yes many are called (drawn) but few are chosen. Who does the choosing? And why? Jesus tells many who think that they belong to him that He never knew them. Doesn't this suggest also that it is God who chooses and not us?

Romans 8 clearly talks of election and predestination. As you suggest, I know there are different interpretations (however, even the Arminians claim that there exists an elect which were known from before Creation), but again, look at the order of events. First the calling, then the justification. Now that is consistent with what both of us say. But take it a step further. We are justified faith. Where does the faith come from? The verse in Hebrews (and similar verses in the epistles) make it clear that faith itself is a gift of God. It isn't something that we have on our own. Clearly, not all have faith. So who does? Those who God chooses to give it to. It isn't that we believe and then God gives us faith. God gives us faith, and then we believe.

You are right in that the Bible does not say explicitly that we cannot come unless we are first regenerated, however, it also doesn't explicitly say that God is "triune." Both ideas are clearly present, however.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

All through the Bible God speaks well of people who exhibit faith and poorly of those who don't. Why do you think that is, I wonder? Is it evil not to be chosen?

 

[docrob57]

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

All through the Bible God speaks well of people who exhibit faith and poorly of those who don't. Why do you think that is, I wonder? Is it evil not to be chosen?

The chosen and unchosen are equally evil, though the outward manifestation of that evil varies considerably. Regeneration precedes faith. Once faith has been given, a choice to serve God can be made. No inconsistency there with what you have cited. Now if you could please deal with what I said, that would be cool.

 

[kmoney]

The chosen and unchosen are equally evil, though the outward manifestation of that evil varies considerably. Regeneration precedes faith. Once faith has been given, a choice to serve God can be made. No inconsistency there with what you have cited. Now if you could please deal with what I said, that would be cool.

I thought the "I" in TULIP said that no one can resist God. Can someone actually choose not to serve God once they have been regenerated?

 

[docrob57]

I thought the "I" in TULIP said that no one can resist God. Can someone actually choose not to serve God once they have been regenerated?

No.

 

[kmoney]

No.

So in what way did you mean someone can choose to serve God once faith has been given to someone?

 

[docrob57]

So in what way did you mean someone can choose to serve God once faith has been given to someone?

Excellent question, and I wish we had someone better versed in these things than me to answer it. My understanding is that it works something like this . . . once the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated," we are able to truly see and feel the grief of our sinfulness and we WILL seek God's mercy.

 

[Delmar]

The chosen and unchosen are equally evil, though the outward manifestation of that evil varies considerably. Regeneration precedes faith. Once faith has been given, a choice to serve God can be made. No inconsistency there with what you have cited. Now if you could please deal with what I said, that would be cool.

In the many are called but few are chosen example it seems as though you are treating one verse as if it were the whole of the story!

(Luke 14:15-24)
22And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said:
2
"The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son,
3
and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.
4
Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."'
5
But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business.
6
And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.
7
But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8
Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9
Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.'
10
So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11
"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
12
So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless.
13
Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, *take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14
"For many are called, but few are chosen."

If you read through the entire parable you will plainly see that all of those who were invited would have been "chosen" if they would have responded appropriately to the invitation.


As for Romans 8, I believe it is talking about Corporate Election.


...and on the subject of regeneration preceding faith I simply don't get where the idea comes from.