ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[GuySmiley]

Excellent question, and I wish we had someone better versed in these things than me to answer it. My understanding is that it works something like this . . . once the Holy Spirit causes us to be "regenerated," we are able to truly see and feel the grief of our sinfulness and we WILL seek God's mercy.

Wouldn't you rather say 'must' instead of able here?

 

[docrob57]

Wouldn't you rather say 'must' instead of able here?

Good question, I am not sure. One of the things that the OVers constantly want to claim is that the Reformed faith denies free will. This is not true, though the defintion of "free will" is different. God uses the exercise of free will to accomplish His purposes. The unregenerate person cannot help but choose sinfully, but that is the only real limitation.

My understanding at this point is that the fact that the regenerate person will, of necessity, choose God does not mean that the choice is forced. It glorifies God in that it shows that His created beings will freely choose Him when freed from the bondage of corruption.

 

[GuySmiley]

The unregenerate person cannot help but choose sinfully, but that is the only real limitation.

My understanding at this point is that the fact that the regenerate person will, of necessity, choose God does not mean that the choice is forced.

So why are the free choices of the unregenerate person and the regenerate person 100% predictable? Because of their nature? An unregenerate person will always choose sinfully, because it is his nature, there is nothing in him that desires good, right?

 

[docrob57]

So why are the free choices of the unregenerate person and the regenerate person 100% predictable? Because of their nature? An unregenerate person will always choose sinfully, because it is his nature, there is nothing in him that desires good, right?

Yes, that is my understanding. And the regenerate person is capable of choosing good but will not always in this life because he still retains elements of his sinful nature.

 

[GuySmiley]

Yes, that is my understanding.

Then they are making choices base on their nature and cannot choose otherwise. Isn't that about as far from 'free' will as you can get?

And the regenerate person is capable of choosing good but will not always in this life because he still retains elements of his sinful nature.

We're talking only of the choice to be saved or not. When the topic is wether or not the regenerate person will be saved or not, he will always make the right choice, in your view. Doesn't sound very free.

 

[Berean Todd]

Then they are making choices base on their nature and cannot choose otherwise. Isn't that about as far from 'free' will as you can get?

Again, it depends on your definition of free will. The unregenerate are able to choose anything that they are capable of choosing. Do you believe that you can choose to fly? If so please jump off of the nearest building for me. If not, then "isn't that about as far from 'free' as you can get?" The unregenerate can choose all manner of things ... which shirt to wear, whether or not to rob a bank, whether to spend his money on crack or a present for his wife. What he is not able to do is to accept God. Which is no different from you being unable to choose to fly.

 

[Delmar]

Again, it depends on your definition of free will. The unregenerate are able to choose anything that they are capable of choosing. Do you believe that you can choose to fly? If so please jump off of the nearest building for me. If not, then "isn't that about as far from 'free' as you can get?" The unregenerate can choose all manner of things ... which shirt to wear, whether or not to rob a bank, whether to spend his money on crack or a present for his wife. What he is not able to do is to accept God. Which is no different from you being unable to choose to fly.

So what the heck is your definition of free will? I just don't get the idea that God would want for most of humanity to lack the ability to repent!

 

[docrob57]

So what the heck is your definition of free will? I just don't get the idea that God would want for most of humanity to lack the ability to repent!

I applaud the honesty of your confession that you just don't get it.

Let's try taking it a step at a time. Is human nature good or evil?

 

[Berean Todd]

So what the heck is your definition of free will?

The ability to freely choose between alternatives, which all people have. There are just some things which man in his fleshly, fallen state is unable to do. We both agree, for example, that man does not have the ability to choose to fly. The question is can man do certain other things (i.e. respond to God)? A reading of the Scripture (Gen 6, parts of Jer and Isa, Romans 1-3, 1 Cor 1-2, Eph 2 ...) seems to say that no, man does not have the ability to respond to God.

 

[Delmar]

The ability to freely choose between alternatives, which all people have. There are just some things which man in his fleshly, fallen state is unable to do. We both agree, for example, that man does not have the ability to choose to fly.

am with you so far.

The question is can man do certain other things (i.e. respond to God)? A reading of the Scripture (Gen 6, parts of Jer and Isa, Romans 1-3, 1 Cor 1-2, Eph 2 ...) seems to say that no, man does not have the ability to respond to God.

I simply disagree that scripture, when taken as whole, contains any such message. In fact, if what you are saying were true, it would be irrational of God to be angry when man does not respond to him!

 

[Delmar]

I applaud the honesty of your confession that you just don't get it.

Let's try taking it a step at a time. Is human nature good or evil?

Mostly evil!

Why did God send the world wide flood?

 

[Delmar]

Good points (except for the thumb part). The question of when regeneration occurs is critical to the debate. Put the verses that you have quoted together with these:









And, of course there is lot's more. But when we consider verses such as these together with ones that you cited, a picture begins to emerge. Yes many are called (drawn) but few are chosen. Who does the choosing? And why? Jesus tells many who think that they belong to him that He never knew them. Doesn't this suggest also that it is God who chooses and not us?

Romans 8 clearly talks of election and predestination. As you suggest, I know there are different interpretations (however, even the Arminians claim that there exists an elect which were known from before Creation), but again, look at the order of events. First the calling, then the justification. Now that is consistent with what both of us say. But take it a step further. We are justified faith. Where does the faith come from? The verse in Hebrews (and similar verses in the epistles) make it clear that faith itself is a gift of God. It isn't something that we have on our own. Clearly, not all have faith. So who does? Those who God chooses to give it to. It isn't that we believe and then God gives us faith. God gives us faith, and then we believe.

You are right in that the Bible does not say explicitly that we cannot come unless we are first regenerated, however, it also doesn't explicitly say that God is "triune." Both ideas are clearly present, however.

I have been thinking about the whole regeneration thing and it is becoming increasingly clear that I don't really understand your terminology. For example when you use the term regeneration would it be interchangeable with the term "saved" or can you be regenerated without being saved? Or perhaps would you see regeneration as something that happens on the way to salvation?
The reason for the question is that throughout the Bible people, to whom salvation is not yet available, are depicted as having faith.

 

[Chileice]

I have been thinking about the whole regeneration thing and it is becoming increasingly clear that I don't really understand your terminology. For example when you use the term regeneration would it be interchangeable with the term "saved" or can you be regenerated without being saved? Or perhaps would you see regeneration as something that happens on the way to salvation?
The reason for the question is that throughout the Bible people to whom salvation is not yet available are depicted as having faith.

This was the reason I started that other thread The Surd's the Word.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33557

The problem is that when we try to tackle each element of the Christian life and reduce each item to some formulaic simple Sunday School answer, we confuse everybody, enrage many, and worst of all we make the cross of Christ meaningless.

If God regenerates all those He choses, Jesus' coming was a mockery. What purpose did it serve? If it was to pay off God when God had it all pre-determined anyway, that is an absurdity. How do you pay yourself off for the sins of people whose sins you have already chosen to requite? Jesus' call to go into all the world becomes a sham. The Great Commission becomes the Great Waste of Time. And, as a matter of fact, when Reformed Theology was at its height, in the 1700s there were no missionaries. No one went out to carry out the great commission because they believed means were unnesseary to reach the heathen until William Carey convinced a few brave souls that maybe they were wrong.

Trying to figure out the moment of "regeneration" is a pointless affair. Either we are in Christ or we aren't. We either have the Son or we don't.

1 John 5 is pretty clear:
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now it is pretty hard to make the bold statement "that you may know" unless you can really know. And in the Calvinist concept, you can't really KNOW because you might not persevere. And if you don't you may THINK you were saved and be lost (as DocRob is accusing Knight of on another thread).

But beyond the inability to have the security of your salvation, it makes a sham of the ministry each of us was given by Christ when we accepted Him:
2 Cor. 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Docrob said he has "started" to study theology and yet he is now THE expert on Calvinism and Calvinism is THE way to read and understand the Bible and all others are in error. That sounds more cultic that Christian. I am NOT saying Docrob is not saved, but I think he is more busy defending one man's view of the faith than he is spreading the Gospel. And in doing so, he is unwittingly being led into an inneffective life which will not be keen to the needs of the lost world. I don't see the same attitude in BT. I have some good Calvinist friends with whom I agree to disagree, but they do not see me as a heretic, nor I them. They have matured and perhaps mellowed around the edges, realizing they may not have it ALL figured out.

 

[Delmar]

I have been thinking about the whole regeneration thing and it is becoming increasingly clear that I don't really understand your terminology. For example when you use the term regeneration would it be interchangeable with the term "saved" or can you be regenerated without being saved? Or perhaps would you see regeneration as something that happens on the way to salvation?
The reason for the question is that throughout the Bible people, to whom salvation is not yet available, are depicted as having faith.

I am hopeing some one who believes regeneration must preced faith will address this.

 

[Chileice]

I am hopeing some one who believes regeneration must preced faith will address this.

I was hoping for a cogent answer as well... but...

 

[Berean Todd]

I have been thinking about the whole regeneration thing and it is becoming increasingly clear that I don't really understand your terminology. For example when you use the term regeneration would it be interchangeable with the term "saved" or can you be regenerated without being saved? Or perhaps would you see regeneration as something that happens on the way to salvation?
The reason for the question is that throughout the Bible people, to whom salvation is not yet available, are depicted as having faith.

Regeneration is not salvation, it preceedes salvation. Regeneration is what Jesus spoke of here:

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Ephesians 2 and other places tell us that we are spiritually dead. 1 Cor 1-2 tells us that in our flesh we can not even understand the Gospel let alone respond to it. It is utter foolishness. The Spirit comes and "regenerates" us, it gives us spiritual life, and at that point our eyes are truly opened to God's grace and (following from irresistable grace) we will respond in faith.

 

[Chileice]

Thanks, BT.
But are we not "regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit? Titus 3:
4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And how can we have the Spirit if we have not the Son? It seems to me that 1 John 5. 10-13, which I quoted above, must also apply. Either we have the Son or we don't. And those who have the Son are those who believed on His name. And they are given power to become children of God. I don't see a disjunct between regeneration and salvation. I see salvation/regeneration more like this:
A person becomes a child of God by believing in the necessity of Christ's atoning sacrifice for his/her sins, and by believing that Jesus Christ bodily resurrected from the dead, and by acknowledging her/his sins, and by asking God for forgiveness, and by repenting from sins. Such a person becomes reconciled with God through Jesus Christ and regenerated by the indwelling Spirit.

 

[Clete]

I don't recall ever having a discussion with a Calvinist about the doctrine of regeneration when the term antinomy wasn't brought up eventually.

The doctrine is irrational and therefore indefensible on rational grounds. The antinomy trump card is all the Calvinist has.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Berean Todd]

Thanks, BT.
But are we not "regenerated by the indwelling Holy Spirit? Titus 3:
4But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And how can we have the Spirit if we have not the Son?

It depends on what you interpret Titus 3:4 there to be saying. You are telling me that it is speaking of the indwelling Spirit that comes at salvation but that is not a nescesary interpretation of that passage. It says in order that:

1. Goodness and kindness of our Savior appeared
2. He saved us
3. Not based on works of righteousness, but by His mercy
4. We were regenerated and renewed by the Holy Spirit ...

Now the question is what is that regeneration, and what does it accomplish? What is the ordo salutis, the order of salvation? According to what I said, it is not possible for natural man to enter the Kingdom, He must first be born again. We understand those passages systematically in light of what else we are told in Scripture, such as:

a. We are spiritually dead (Eph 2)
b. no man comes to God (Rom 1-3)
c. natural man can not understand the gospel (1 Cor 1-2)
d. one must have the Spirit to understand the Gospel (1 Cor 1-2)

etc, etc, etc. When we look at all of the passages systematically, it seems apparent to me (and other Calvinists) that before salvation, before we can see, understand, grasp and respond to the Gospel we must first be quickened, renewed, regenerated by the Holy Spirit. As Christ said where I posted above, we must be born again.

It seems to me that 1 John 5. 10-13, which I quoted above, must also apply. Either we have the Son or we don't. And those who have the Son are those who believed on His name. And they are given power to become children of God. I don't see a disjunct between regeneration and salvation.

I don't see where 1 John 5 plays into this. Yes those who have the Son have life. But who has the Son? Those who have placed their faith in Him. Who has placed their faith in Him? Those who have first been regnerated.

I see salvation/regeneration more like this:
A person becomes a child of God by believing in the necessity of Christ's atoning sacrifice for his/her sins, and by believing that Jesus Christ bodily resurrected from the dead, and by acknowledging her/his sins, and by asking God for forgiveness, and by repenting from sins. Such a person becomes reconciled with God through Jesus Christ and regenerated by the indwelling Spirit.

I understand that is what you believe, I held to that at one time before myself. I saw people asking for what Calvinists understand, and I have presented it. It is not my job to convince you, I am here presenting my understanding of Scripture, what you believe is a matter between you the Holy Spirit and the Father. We are each accountable to search the Scriptures and seek to come to know God more fully.

I have no problem with this issue. There are many here (the hyper-uber-OV-nazis) who are extremely derogatory and dismissive and insulting of any of other viewpoints. I'm not like that. I welcome the debate and discussion as a way of "iron sharpening iron", but ultimately as long as we agree on the majors (salvation by grace through faith, deity of Christ, the trinity, etc, etc) then I feel we are on the same team, and that our testimony to the world would be much stronger if we could lock arms and fight together for the cause of the Gospel rather than against each other, giving Satan victory and allowing the world to look down on the Body of Christ.

 

[Berean Todd]

I don't recall ever having a discussion with a Calvinist about the doctrine of regeneration when the term antinomy wasn't brought up eventually.

The doctrine is irrational and therefore indefensible on rational grounds. The antinomy trump card is all the Calvinist has.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I don't find it irrational in the least bit, and I challenge you to show me bringing up "antinomy". Your post there is completely dissmissive and addresses nothing being said at present. If you have nothing to add to the discussion feel free to abstain from it.