ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[Nathon Detroit]

There's no doubt in my mind that you find the words I type to be venomous down to the darkest, deepest depths of your soul

But it's not me that you want to silence Knight.

On the subject of God foreordaining men to salvation, Ephesians 1 handily devastates any anti-Calvin (and in essence anti-Bible) claims made by OVers such as yourself

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Don't be mad at me, be mad at God :thumb:

Allsmiles with all due respect do you think that's the first time I have seen those verses???

I mean really?

Clearly you do not know the difference between corporate and individual election. God predetermined that the Body of Christ would be holy and blameless before Him, He didn't however pre-determine who would be a part of that Body. (corporate vs, individual)

Maybe before you comment any further you should get up to speed on the debate. :nono:

 

[docrob57]

I can't speak for Allsmiles, I'll let him speak for himself. But I made the choice because the truth of the Gospel convicted me. I had a change of heart and I realized that I indeed needed Jesus Christ in my life. Plus I had some interesting "divine" appoints that I realized could not have been random events. These events caught my attention and I started to think more aobut who God really is.

I think it is important that you deal with Allsmiles. You must at some level consider yourself inherently better than him, right? Otherwise, why have you come to different conclusions? Why didn't God guide Smiles like He did you, with these non-random events?

 

[allsmiles]

I don't underestimate God's role. He provided faithful witnesses to His truth and He placed them in my life to speak His truth to me. I finally realized I was running away from God for carnal reasons. He granted me salvation. Salvation is His gift, a gift I cannot earn in any way.

I understand what you're saying.

You were dead in your trespasses and sin.

Then suddenly you spiritually resurrected yourself and cut God some slack by accepting his son, Jesus Christ into your heart.

None of that is any of the Bible I've read :nono:

You must be reading some sort of Happy Meal Bible or something...:think:

 

[Nomad]

Do you think that there is anything God doesn't control?

No

Isaiah 54: 15-17
15 If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.

16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.

emphasis mine
In that chapter, God is talking about the future glory of Zion. What is in verses 16-17 is God saying that even though they will get beaten up in the present, that that is from God. I posted this in a thread a while back and someone replied thinking that those two verses at the end verify that God causes everything, but those are referring to God causing Isreals present distress, whereas in the future, other nations may attack Isreal, but they will not succeed. God did not cause that, but God still recieves the glory is my take on that

 

[docrob57]

I don't underestimate God's role. He provided faithful witnesses to His truth and He placed them in my life to speak His truth to me. I finally realized I was running away from God for carnal reasons. He granted me salvation. Salvation is His gift, a gift I cannot earn in any way.

Of course that is true, but your assumption, if you reject unconditional election, MUST be that you had some small part in it, since it was ultimately your decision.

 

[allsmiles]

Allsmiles with all due respect do you think that's the first time I have seen those verses???

I mean really?

No, I'm sure you've seen them several times.

Clearly you do not know the difference between corporate and individual election. God predetermined that the Body of Christ would be holy and blameless before Him, He didn't however pre-determine who would be a part of that Body. (corporate vs, individual)

I see your words, where are the words of the Bible?

Maybe before you comment any further you should get up to speed on the debate. :nono:

:yawn:

 

[docrob57]

Isaiah 54: 15-17
15 If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.

16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.

emphasis mine
In that chapter, God is talking about the future glory of Zion. What is in verses 16-17 is God saying that even though they will get beaten up in the present, that that is from God. I posted this in a thread a while back and someone replied thinking that those two verses at the end verify that God causes everything, but those are referring to God causing Isreals present distress, whereas in the future, other nations may attack Isreal, but they will not succeed. God did not cause that, but God still recieves the glory is my take on that

15 If anyone does attack you,it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.

16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.

Emphasis mine

 

[Nathon Detroit]

As I hate it when open theists mock God by saying that he cannot know the future. God would never allow rape to happen right? When it does it is a surprise to Him and He no doubt grieves that He was unable to stop this terrible thing.

God could have predestined the entire future, by preprogramming every action of every molecule. But out of love, He didn't. He chose not to create a reality that was for "show".

So let's assume we have a serial rapist at time A that has not been caught. He has already commited 10 rapes. It is in the past, so God knows that this person is a rapist. By time B, he has committed 20 rapes. Why didn't God stop him? Is He that devoid of knowledge that He couldn't tell the rapist would continue?

God values our freewill more than our earthly security.

We could all lock our kids in the closet and they would never scrape their knee's learning to ride their bike but the trade-off isn't worth it.

 

[The Berean]

I think it is important that you deal with Allsmiles. You must at some level consider yourself inherently better than him, right? Otherwise, why have you come to different conclusions? Why didn't God guide Smiles like He did you, with these non-random events?

doc,

Since I do not know allsmiles personally, I cannot speak about his personal experiences. Please. let's keep on topic here.

 

[allsmiles]

15 If anyone does attack you,it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.

16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.

Emphasis mine

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I see your words, where are the words of the Bible?

Well you could start by reading my first post in this thread.

Please stay out of this thread, I am not going to ask you again. You don't know the debate and you are too unfamiliar with the arguments to be of any value to this Christian discussion.

 

[kmoney]

I don't underestimate God's role. He provided faithful witnesses to His truth and He placed them in my life to speak His truth to me. I finally realized I was running away from God for carnal reasons. He granted me salvation. Salvation is His gift, a gift I cannot earn in any way.

Well yes, but I mean an internal role. Those verses say the fleshly mind can't be subject to God. To me it's odd to say that the carnal mind can't be subject to the Law of God, but it can make a decision to trust in God. :idunno:

 

[docrob57]

God could have predestined the entire future, by preprogramming every action of every molecule. But out of love, He didn't. He chose not to create a reality that was for "show".

God values our freewill more than our earthly security.

We could all lock our kids in the closet and they would never scrape their knee's learning to ride their bike but the trade-off isn't worth it.

Well that is inconsistent with nomad's quote that I re-emphasized, but laying that aside for the moment, how do you respond to the questions I have been asking Berean?

I apologize gang, but I must head out now. I will check in tomorrow . . . it is very good to "see" everybody again, even those of you who are wrong.

And yes, that means you too Smiles!!

 

[Nomad]

15 If anyone does attack you,it will not be my doing;
whoever attacks you will surrender to you.

16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith
who fans the coals into flame
and forges a weapon fit for its work.
And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

17 no weapon forged against you will prevail,
and you will refute every tongue that accuses you.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and this is their vindication from me,"
declares the LORD.

Emphasis mine

again, I believe that that has to do with Isreals present stuggles, specifically Babylon

 

[The Berean]

Of course that is true, but your assumption, if you reject unconditional election, MUST be that you had some small part in it, since it was ultimately your decision.

The only part I had was to follow God's truth and stop being rebellious. Is it your belief that God elects some people for rejection and that this was preordained?

 

[allsmiles]

Well you could start by reading my first post in this thread.

Please stay out of this thread, I am not going to ask you again. You don't know the debate and you are too unfamiliar with the arguments to be of any value to this Christian discussion.

Thy will be done :bow:

 

[docrob57]

Real quick, what happened to the other Calvinists here? I didn't think I'd have to do this myself.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

Mankind sinned and lost it's relationship with God, God turned them over to themselves (Rom 1). Man cannot repair this relationship on his own. God makes the choice to live with or without God, and God through His good graces does the rest.

 

[The Berean]

Well yes, but I mean an internal role. Those verses say the fleshly mind can't be subject to God. To me it's odd to say that the carnal mind can't be subject to the Law of God, but it can make a decision to trust in God. :idunno:

Is the entire mind "carnal"? Is man's spirit entirely carnal? That fact that many people come to Christ would seem to suggest that there is something in us that wants to be with God I would think.

 

[kmoney]

Real quick, what happened to the other Calvinists here? I didn't think I'd have to do this myself.

There aren't many around here. :help: