ARCHIVE: Finding my way

[allsmiles]

So he chose, which God knew, but God didn't make him choose?

:think:

I dunno. Ask The Berean. Did God make him choose? No? Well I guess the answer is no Nomad

 

[Nathon Detroit]

While theoretically true, God, in accordance with HIs purposes, uses the elect as His human instruments to spread the word to others. I would say it is all part of how we grow in relationship with Him.

In Calvinism there can be no such thing as growth in the elect.

The entire number of elect was predetermined in advance before creation. What might appear to be growth is actually just the fulfillment of the predetermined number of elect. Also, it is predetermined ho close one might be in a relationsip with God, therefore there can be no actually growth in that regard either.

You don't reject that do you?

** all according to Calvinistic doctrine of course **

 

[allsmiles]

Actually, from what I know about you it was partially Calvinism that turned you against the Bible.

I've made it perfectly clear on multiple occasions that it was church ethics that turned me away from Christianity, not theology. I have told you personally that if I were to ever return to Christianity I would return to Calvinism. I hope I'm emphatic enough so you don't make this mistake again :thumb:

Incidentally, as a pagan I agree with your belief that the future is open.

You are like many people who inherently know that freewill is self evident. Therefore that notion did not jive with what you were being taught in the church and therefore it helped you to reject God's truth.

I know that freewill is self-evident now, but I had no problem dismissing that notion, to a degree, while I was in the faith. Again, I didn't reject Christianity because of theology :nono:

And here we are now.... the best argument you can make is that you believe that if the Bible were true God had preselected you for damnation. :dizzy:

No, because if I believed that the Bible were true that would mean I were one of the elect and would be predestined to salvation according to the purpose of God's good will and pleasure... like the Bible states unequivocally and reiterates from start to finish.

Theological inconsistencies, deliberate misunderstandings and philosophical imaginings are pretty much the best counter argument anyone is ever going to have against Calvinism. I was arguing this when I was twelve Knight, nothing you say to me surprises me, in fact, I find it comforting in that it's predictable

 

[Nathon Detroit]

No, because if I believed that the Bible were true that would mean I were one of the elect and would be predestined to salvation according to the purpose of God's good will and pleasure... like the Bible states unequivocally and reiterates from start to finish.

Interesting.... you would think the Calvinists would be privy to this information. :chuckle:

It's actually just the opposite as I demonstrated in my first post on this thread.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

allsmiles... the Bible is a book filled end to end with stories of man's DISobedience towards God. The Calvinist theology is that there is no such thing as disobedience towards God.

 

[Vaquero45]

So the bottom line is I am now willing to declare myself to be unreservedly Calvinist.

Ooops. Funny how "will" sneaks into every part of our rational daily lives. Calvinists are only such during theology discussions. Nobody tells the waitress, "God planned for me to have green chili on my burrito today, thanks." doc, you seem like a cool guy typically, good to see you back, sorry to hear the reason.

 

[allsmiles]

Interesting.... you would think the Calvinists would be privy to this information. :chuckle:

It's actually just the opposite as I demonstrated in my first post on this thread.

Had you not ignored the bulk of my post you would have found that misunderstandings and theological inconsistencies are the best counter argument you have against Calvinism. I predicted this behavior from you Knight... remember how I said I could do that? I was doing it to grown men when I wasn't even a teenager yet :chuckle: This is like brain candy for me.

Demonstrating the Bible to be theologically incoherent and not understanding Calvinism only makes you look bad Knight :thumb:

 

[allsmiles]

allsmiles... the Bible is a book filled end to end with stories of man's DISobedience towards God. The Calvinist theology is that there is no such thing as disobedience towards God.

Knight, with every post you do nothing but exhibit a lack of knowledge on the subject of Calvinism which in the end is nothing more than a lack of knowledge on the subject of the theological message of the Bible in it's entirety. Pick up Luther, pick up Calvin, pick up Pink, pick up Boettner, as I have and read them as you read the Bible, from the beginning to the end.

 

[docrob57]

In Calvinism there can be no such thing as growth in the elect.

The entire number of elect was predetermined in advance before creation. What might appear to be growth is actually just the fulfillment of the predetermined number of elect. Also, it is predetermined ho close one might be in a relationsip with God, therefore there can be no actually growth in that regard either.

You don't reject that do you?

** all according to Calvinistic doctrine of course **

I don't reject the first part. The second point is a good one, and the situation is complicated. God is in control not only of justification, but also sanctification. There is growth, but it is God who is at work in us to affect the change. Why He doesn't "do it all at once" I don't know. What I can say, is that since I have truly come to grips with my unworthiness, I can see working within me things that I understood only intellectually before. I can look back and see God leading me on a path. It is all His work and all for His glory.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Had you not ignored the bulk of my post you would have found that misunderstandings and theological inconsistencies are the best counter argument you have against Calvinism. I predicted this behavior from you Knight... remember how I said I could do that? I was doing it to grown men when I wasn't even a teenager yet :chuckle: This is like brain candy for me.

Demonstrating the Bible to be theologically incoherent and not understanding Calvinism only makes you look bad Knight :thumb:

So many words.... yet you never say anything. All fluff and no content. I have made a clear biblical and logical case against docrob's position, if you have nothing to add please "butt-out".

P.S. Did you notice the forum this thread is in? It's in this forum for a reason, so we don't have to be distracted by the mindless dribble of people like you.

 

[Nomad]

I don't reject the first part. The second point is a good one, and the situation is complicated. God is in control not only of justification, but also sanctification. There is growth, but it is God who is at work in us to affect the change. Why He doesn't "do it all at once" I don't know. What I can say, is that since I have truly come to grips with my unworthiness, I can see working within me things that I understood only intellectually before. I can look back and see God leading me on a path. It is all His work and all for His glory.

Do you think that there is anything that God doesn't control?

 

[docrob57]

Knight, with every post you do nothing but exhibit a lack of knowledge on the subject of Calvinism which in the end is nothing more than a lack of knowledge on the subject of the theological message of the Bible in it's entirety. Pick up Luther, pick up Calvin, pick up Pink, pick up Boettner, as I have and read them as you read the Bible, from the beginning to the end.

I hate to be agreeing with you Smiles, but you are right, what is typically termed Calvinism these days is the Christian faith as it has been understood until relatively recently. I like Pink by the way. He has some interesting things to say about dispensationalism, but I will not stir up yet another hornet's nest with that.

 

[The Berean]

Yes

Ok, can you elaborate because I distinctly remember spending a lot of time deciding whether I should give my life to God. So what was that all about? God just makes us think that we are deciding. That would make God coniving, wouldn't it? :think:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I don't reject the first part. The second point is a good one, and the situation is complicated. God is in control not only of justification, but also sanctification. There is growth, but it is God who is at work in us to affect the change. Why He doesn't "do it all at once" I don't know. What I can say, is that since I have truly come to grips with my unworthiness, I can see working within me things that I understood only intellectually before. I can look back and see God leading me on a path. It is all His work and all for His glory.

Let me ask you a straightforward question....

According to Calvinism..... a millennia ago God had predetermined the entire future in advance. (I assume you agree with that). Therefore.... is there ever any growth (or change) from the predetermined plan in anyway whatsoever?

 

[docrob57]

Do you think that there is anything that God doesn't control?

No

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Ok, can you elaborate because I distinctly remember spending a lot of time deciding whether I should give my life to God. So what was that all about? :think:

You deliberating was only an illusion predetermined by God (according to Calvinism). You "went through the motions", don't ya feel good?

 

[docrob57]

Ok, can you elaborate because I distinctly remember spending a lot of time deciding whether I should give my life to God. So what was that all about? :think:

Well let me ask you this first, what is it within you that you feel gave you the wisdom to accept God?

 

[The Berean]

You deliberating was only an illusion predetermined by God (according to Calvinism). You "went through the motions", don't ya feel good?

Yeah, in a "Muppets" sort of way! :noid:

 

[docrob57]

Let me ask you a straightforward question....

According to Calvinism..... a millennia ago God had predetermined the entire future in advance. (I assume you agree with that). Therefore.... is there ever any growth (or change) from the predetermined plan in anyway whatsoever?

I would have to say no. Now to the extent there is some freedom to choose various evil paths, I guess there may be some variation, but essentially I would say no, there is no material change from the predetermined path.

 

[allsmiles]

Let me ask you a straightforward question....

According to Calvinism..... a millennia ago God had predetermined the entire future in advance. (I assume you agree with that). Therefore.... is there ever any growth (or change) from the predetermined plan in anyway whatsoever?

Knight, you're trying to talk about two different things at the same time. Do you want to talk about God's foreknowledge of all events throughout the course of history, or do you want to talk about the predetermination of those who will be saved?