ARCHIVE: Abortion is always murder

[Prisca]

Hi HsG,

Hi HsG,

You said, “Becky, didn't you realize that Jesus bought us out of the Old Covenant? While the basic rules still apply to sinners, they don't apply to those full of the faith.”

We are not talking about those who are “full of the faith.” Just as you said, "...the basic rules still apply to sinners." Paul said, “But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.” (1Tim. 1:4-11)

So, what are we to do with these lawless people? Where else does God lie down the law for the lawless but in the OT? It is in the OT that God gives us the proper punishment for lawlessness and I do not see these laws being revoked in the NT.

You said, “This is Paul’s message in Romans. It doesn't give us the right to sin because our grace was bought, but we are not under the bondage of those laws. We were brought out of our slavery by Jesus.”

I agree, but what about those who have not been brought out of slavery? And what about Christians who commit crimes against society? Is there to be no punishment for them? While on this earth, we are still to obey the governing authorities. Innocent life is still as precious to God now as it was during the OT days and we are commanded to protect it.

According to God, what would be the proper punishment for the likes of the following criminals: http://www.amw.com/amw.html

Scroll down and read the story behind Oscar Sevilla and Lorenzo Gamez Salinas, who, on a dare, carjacked and shot 20 year old Jerry Morales. He was driving his 21-month old daughter to a birthday party. After they shot and killed him, do you know what they did? They threw this precious little girl out of the car, still strapped to her car seat. She died of exposure. Imagine the torture of being strapped there in the Texas heat with nothing to eat or drink, with no one to comfort her!

These men are not respecters of innocent life and they should die a horrible and frightening death.

 

[Prisca]

HsG - One last little note:

The article on legalism you posted really surprised me. Perhaps you are confusing religious legalism with criminal law. The two are very different. Besides, wasn’t it you who equated salvation with meeting the requirements on the back of a credit card application? You told me yourself that if I couldn’t put a check mark next to each requirement, then I didn’t qualify. THAT, my friend, is religious legalism.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

HsG - One last little note:

The article on legalism you posted really surprised me. Perhaps you are confusing religious legalism with criminal law. The two are very different. Besides, wasn’t it you who equated salvation with meeting the requirements on the back of a credit card application? You told me yourself that if I couldn’t put a check mark next to each requirement, then I didn’t qualify. THAT, my friend, is religious legalism.

Actually, it was you who used the credit card idea. All I did was read the entire NT and find the verses where the Apostles or whomever wrote each point showed that if you DIDN'T do a certain thing, then you don't have the Holy Spirit in you, or you don't know God. It isn't my words, it is the bibles. All I did was point out the verses. If you have a complaint about what is written there, you know who to take it up with.

As far as leaglism is concerned, the entire law from Shadowgov.com is legalism. And you support this view.

In your prior post, you were trying to talk about those who are still under the law. Jesus told you, as did Paul. You know the verses. "For it is mine to revenge" sayeth the Lord. Not sure when any Enyartian became Jesus or god, so I am not sure why you feel you have His power over life and death.

I still can not understand how you can choose which verse is more powerful and correct than others. The theme of the NT denies your convictions. ANYONE can find a verse in the bible to support their perversions and high horse ideals, but when the majority of the verses overwhelm the number you quote, maybe you need to think again about what God is saying.

 

[Prisca]

HsG,

HsG,

I was referring to a post you made on 01-10-2002 07:54 AM in a thread you started titled “Definition of Christianity”

HsG said, “Read again the teachings that Jesus said was needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Place them on a piece of paper and then check them off if they apply to you. If there is even ONE spot you can not check, then just like the terms for a credit card, you don't qualify. I know I don't.”

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1045&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

Now, moving right along, what would you do about Oscar Sevilla and Lorenzo Gamez Salinas (http://www.amw.com/amw.html), or did you miss that post? Should we just forgive them? Should we keep them in prison for life? Should we sit back and wait for lightening to strike them?

 

[Lion]

Becky-No, no, no, you silly girl. MSG didn’t say that, he just posted it. When will you learn?

 

[His_saving_Grac]

Nice to see you read that thread, Becky. But as I pointed out, that actually comes from the book called The Grace Awakening by Greg Swindoll. I, myself, don't come up with checklists. I couldn't write a book on christianity since everytime I open the bible, I learn something new. But while learning, I honestly don't see the point you favor as being part of the teaching of Christ. Somehow YOU and some others in this forum do, but I don't I see way too many verses contradicting the point.

In your post from a day ago, you stated that because those who are not Christians are still under the Mosaich laws, that everything in leviticus still stands. My point is if YOU are no longer under the law, to follow the law would make you and the sinner on equal ground.

You asked:

Now, moving right along, what would you do about Oscar Sevilla and Lorenzo Gamez Salinas

. Here is my answer. God is giving them eternity in hell, if you believe in heaven and hell as the eternal paradise verses eternal suffering. Why do you feel that the puny earth justice can even compare to what God has in store for them? Or is it that you don't want these people the opportunity to find Christ before dying?

I HAVCE seen posts where the poster was upset that the salvation is guaranteed to ANYONE who truly repents their sin, comes to Christ, and accepts him as "Lord and Savior" to coin the churchism. Is that something in the thought process thaat you and other Enyartians believe? This is a true and sincere question. Is the urge for revenge overwhelming enough to actually think that our justice on earth is anything compared to eternity? And if not, then what makes you think the death penalty and the long drawn out torture stated in "Day 1" is within the will of God? The death descibed there has no other purpose but for vengence. The fact that you allow witnesses and victims both to assist in the death of the one found guilty makes you no better in God's eyes than the one you kill. Since the reasoning is NOT to do God's will, but to satisfy a 'blood lust' and for vengence.

God's punishment is infinately worse than anything you can dream up, just as His grace is infinetly better than anything any of us can imagine. If that is not true, then there is no reason for our faith.

 

[Lion]

HA! I knew it. See… MSG didn’t say it. MSG doesn’t say anything. MSG just posts. And therefore is not responsible for anything, (even when MSG accuses you of having made the statement on credit cards and you show him wrong, still he won’t admit it).

 

[Lion]

Becky-MSG is being hypocritical again. First he/she/it? states that we are not to put anyone to death because as Christians we are to forgive them. But MSG wants murderers to be locked up for life… where is the forgiveness in that?

Supposed Christians that appose the death penalty always run into this wall, making their argument indefensible.

Besides, how does he know God is sending them to hell? Perhaps they have, or will repent. Or does MSG know their hearts? Only God can judge their hearts, we are to put them to death (on the strength of two or three witnesses) as God commands, so that He can do just that.

 

[His_saving_Grac]

just a quick question Becky. When are you going to tag off and send in chance, webmaster, or drransom? I notice that ND hasn't been back in this thread since you took up the fight.

And I also notice that you never answered any of my questions about Bob Enyart and his input and status in this forum. I, for one, would like to know I am speaking with him if he really is participating in here. If not, I was wondering why the thread posted in his name. If he is, then I would like to know why he could post the thread "Judge Rightly" in the news section of this forum when you stated only subscribers and moderators/administrators are allowed to start a thread in this section of the forum. His name does not show him as a subscriber, yet that thread was started (supposedly) by him.

So again I ask the question, is Mr Enyart a subscriber here where we can speak directly to him about his beliefs, or was the name taken by an administrator/moderator and used to make us think he was a member and that you had his support? If so, how can the claim be made that this forum has no church backing when Mr Enyart is the leader of his own church in Colorado? If not, why was he allowed to post in this thread? If it wasn't him, why were we led to believe it WAS him? All that need to be done was have you or one of the others to post a link to his page where this topic was.

I would sincerely enjoy coversing at length in this forum, where words don't get lost, answers are read by all, and a person has time to think of their responce instead of blurting out something on a radio show because the time wasn't there to actually think of your answer.

 

[Prisca]

HsG,

HsG,

You said, “just a quick question Becky. When are you going to tag off and send in chance, webmaster, or drransom? I notice that ND hasn't been back in this thread since you took up the fight."

Sorry, I didn’t quite understand what you were getting at. Wanna run that by me again?

Sorry about not responding about Mr. Enyart. You asked about his status on Theologyonline. As far as I know he is an honorary subcriber. Whether or not he posts much, I can’t say. I believe he used to have a forum of his own at KGOV.com. I don’t know if it is still up and running or not. Knowing how busy he is, he probably only pops in once in a while.

You can sure check to see if his forum is operational if you would like to post there. You may be able to “instant message” him while he is doing his radio show. I rarely catch his show, but I heard that he sometimes takes “instant messages” while on the air.

I don’t know what I am still doing awake at this hour! It is 5:04 a.m. MT here for me. I’d better get to bed. I’ve got homeschooling to do in the morning! Talk to you again soon!

In Christ,
Becky

 

[Zakath]

Re: HsG,

Re: HsG,

Sorry about not responding about Mr. Enyart. You asked about his status on Theologyonline. As far as I know he is an honorary subcriber. Whether or not he posts much, I can’t say. I believe he used to have a forum of his own at KGOV.com. I don’t know if it is still up and running or not. Knowing how busy he is, he probably only pops in once in a while.

You can sure check to see if his forum is operational if you would like to post there. You may be able to “instant message” him while he is doing his radio show. I rarely catch his show, but I heard that he sometimes takes “instant messages” while on the air.

Part of what raises so many questions is that articles are occasionally posted with his name as poster and all of Enyart's forum links on all his sites take one here to TOL. It could appear that Rev. Enyart considers this "his" forum.

 

[Prisca]

Zakath

Zakath

You said, “…all of Enyart's forum links on all his sites take one here to TOL.”

Huh… You’re right! I had no idea. The webmaster and Mr. Enyart must have worked something out. TOL had always managed to have more participation than some of the other forums for some reason. Maybe KGOV gave up on trying to manage its own. I used to post there once in a while, but TOL has always been closer to my heart.

TOL is, was, and has always been a privately owned and operated website. The webmaster, my husband and I will continue to keep it up and running as long as there is plenty of interest from the members. I would like to personally thank anyone who has helped us in this endeavor! It has sometimes been a struggle to keep it going, but we have always felt it was a worthwhile sacrifice of both time and money.

 

[some other dude]

From February 4, 2002:

Abortion has been a hot topic on TheologyOnLine for the past few weeks.

The understatement of the decade! :first: