ARCHIVE: Abortion is always murder

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
HsG,

The webmaster is being very patient with you. On this one thread you have repeatedly broken the following commandments:

4. Thou shall not be unnecessarily disruptive
6. Thou shall not submit posts of extreme length
(anything over 6 short paragraphs may be considered too long. Don't attempt to make your whole argument in one post.)

Don't you enjoy posting here?
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
HSG say...
You stated that you won't post until you have read it, and to give you 2 weeks because you read slow.
Are you telling me you didn't realize I was kidding with you????? YIKES!!!
 

Projill

New member
So far I think the most disruptive thing to hit TOL in a long time is Jefferson's avatar...but, like a pack of hyenas, you're protecting your own. :D
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Becky said:
HsG,

The webmaster is being very patient with you. On this one thread you have repeatedly broken the following commandments:

4. Thou shall not be unnecessarily disruptive
6. Thou shall not submit posts of extreme length
(anything over 6 short paragraphs may be considered too long. Don't attempt to make your whole argument in one post.)

Don't you enjoy posting here?
Becky.

The disruptiveness is not my fault. Why am I not allowed to argue my point about the death penaly as loud as knight wants to argue his point about abortion? He is allowed more freedom insult other on their opinions because he is a "moderator"? The purpose of a moderator is NOT to insult the other posters but to STOP personal attacks. It hasn't been that way with knight. In fact, it has been his person joy to insult me and put words in my mouth that I have repeatedly denied. I am sick of someone hiding undeer the name of "administrator" and then say I am pro-abortion, when I have stated VERY clearly I am not, to the point of explaining the exact degree of where I stand.

Knight also refuses to answer direct points with a true answer, but instead resorts to personal attacks and name calling. But we have to put up with this because he is a moderator favorite? Who is being disruptive? The one calling people stupid, ignorant, that they never think before posting. Then, when someone speaks slowly and in detail so that he can MAYBE understand what is being said, we get attack for length of post.

Why can someone slander me in here and not get chastised? Lion said I spout profanity. I asked him to show me ONCE when I have. I know for a fact I have never sworn in this nor any other forum. The moderator/administrator SHOULD be stopping stuff like that. Instead, he feeds into it.

As for length of post, I would REALLY like to know why that matters since it is obvious that he (knight) never reads ANY posts, but instead looks for another way to insult? I showed him in two different areas where I not only tried to be friendly, but complimented him, and instead of actiing in a christian manner, he insulted me again.

So, Becky, it appears the rules only apply to me and those who do not agree with the stands taken up by anyone who opposes his views. Knight has carte blanche in starting fights, slandering, and insulting, and all the rest of us are treated like....

Funny way fro a "christian" to act. Haven't you noticed that his representations isn't gaining anyone to christianity, but is actually DRIVING people from it? You can NOT be "glorifying God" with your every action which is written by Pauls in more than one of his epistles. I am sick of kissing up for fear of staying a member here. The message of God needs to be said, not these areas of where HE is going to tell me what my stand is on stuff and repeat it often no matter how many times I have explained it. If you want shorter posts, tell him I AM NOT PRO ABORTION, so he can finally find it in his skull.

Do I enjoy posting here? Most of the time, yes. But for some reason, it is when the Word of Christ is overrun by people who seemingly want to destroy christianity by arguing small points instead of passing the word. And most of the time, it is one of the "cliche" of the Enyart group who STARTS a very contraversial thread.

Last time. Murder is Murder. Both abortion AND the death penalty are murder. Semantics and nit picking mean nothing. They both fit under the name of Murder, and especially the way discribed in Day 1.

You seem to be the only one of the Enyartian group I can talk to who listens. "Whoever has ears had better listen" You seem to be the only one of this sect of christianity who "has ears".

God bless you and those you love, Becky.

Make you decission on how you chose. I will not back down from teachings I feel are wrong, anymore than any of you will.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Becky said:
HsG,

The webmaster is being very patient with you. On this one thread you have repeatedly broken the following commandments:

4. Thou shall not be unnecessarily disruptive
6. Thou shall not submit posts of extreme length
(anything over 6 short paragraphs may be considered too long. Don't attempt to make your whole argument in one post.)

Don't you enjoy posting here?
By the way, Becky, it seems the post length rule only is for us peons. The writing of Bob Enyart of Judge Rightly was posted in the forum uncut and in one single post. It seems a bit like hypocrisy to state a rule, and then make it only a rule if you are not an Enyartian. THAT is exactly why I disagree with the entire Enyartian philosophy. They SAY the power would never go to their head, but look at how knight has decided to kick out (or have kicked out) anyone who completely disagrees with him and voices it. Look at how someone can post under the name of Bob Enyart and extreemly long post that is already posted on the site, but no one could comment on it, so it was reposted again so to drive up commant and insure everyone saw it.

Why is it those who love calling others "hypocrites" are the ones who actually violate the rules they stand for?

I will state it again for ND's sake. I AM NOT PRO ABORTION. I AM 100% AGAINST VENGEFUL PAINFUL STATE SANCTIONED DEATHS! I do NOT see Christ acting like this ANYWHERE in the NT, some to portray this as "christianity" is blasphomy against Jesus called the Christ. Paul states the old covenant was broken. If so, these rules about man's blood being shed by mans blood were removed by the appearance and ressurection of Christ. To support views that God himself has revoked (or Paul is a liar and we can not trust ANYTHING he said) shows that you have NO spiritual footing to base this faith.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Knight said:
HSG say...Are you telling me you didn't realize I was kidding with you????? YIKES!!!
You made it very clear that you will NOT talk with me in a civilized manner, because you didn't understand something I said, and took it to be comparing fetuses and bacteria. You refused to listen to the clarification, and have since posted AT me, but not too me.

You have also refused to see what I said about my stance on abortion. I explained it in detail to Zakath earlier, and I know you saw it because you were very active in that thread. But you continue to state I am pro-abortion because I refused to take ANY side in the debate, only to point out that the way that Bob Enyart describes the death penalty is done with premeditated malice, making it state sanctioned MURDER.

Then we have the poster who states he can show me the many countries that have the death penalty. Somehow, they have forgotten the the good ole USA is the #1 country in the world. If these other countries political stances are so great, why are they still considered 3rd world countries?

The person who is disruptive is the one who starts the insults. That is almost ALWAYS you, ND.

And please don't tell me you are joking with me one day, while the same day you are insulting me. There are fools in the world. I am not one of them. Don't you be one either.

And for the webmaster and those who post in here who are considered administrators, please go through ALL the threads in here and find how many I started out of personal attacks. The look at all the threads started by freak, tralon, c.moore, and some "moderators" and see how many THEY have started with insults on someone. Then do an honest assesment of who is being disruptive and who isn't.

I noticed not one of you commented on the thread I just started about grace. Did it hit something? I sure hope so, because we are living by God's grace. Go there and see if you are repaying that grace to God in a proper manner.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
HsG,

HsG,

Perhaps you didn’t realize that the threads that appear on the home page fit into a different category. They appear under the heading “Admin, Moderator, and Subcriber News.” They are there for the purpose of “stirring up the pot” so to speak. Once the main article has been posted, every one is free to post comments. Sorry if there was any confusion.

You seem to be very bitter and unhappy lately. I’m sorry to hear that you are not well. I will be praying for you.

In Christ,
Becky
 

denversurvivor

New member
Projill said:
So far I think the most disruptive thing to hit TOL in a long time is Jefferson's avatar...but, like a pack of hyenas, you're protecting your own. :D

why do I always get left out of the hated avatar group? Come on somebody hate me!
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Re: HsG,

Re: HsG,

Becky said:
Perhaps you didn’t realize that the threads that appear on the home page fit into a different category. They appear under the heading “Admin, Moderator, and Subcriber News.” They are there for the purpose of “stirring up the pot” so to speak. Once the main article has been posted, every one is free to post comments. Sorry if there was any confusion.

You seem to be very bitter and unhappy lately. I’m sorry to hear that you are not well. I will be praying for you.

In Christ,
Becky
Yes, I realize about the posts on the front page. But the thread I was talking about (Judge rightly) was placed in here for discussion. It was done full length. All I was trying to do was place some different perspectives about the topic of the death penalty and the similarities between deciding that ALL fertalized human ova must be carried full term because to NOT do so is considered murder, yet the form of death proposed in Day 1 isn't considered murder yet it is to be done in the form that murder is defined. With revenge, spite, pain, disfigurement, and malice, going with premeditation since it is a forgone conclusion that if found guilty, this is the form of execution they will face.

If life is sacred, ALL life is sacred. We can't say "This life is blessed by God, this life is worthless to God." God has already shown he can even use those considered evil to work His will.

Since those people I quoted put the words much more elequently than I had been doing, I placed them here in the full so as to not take anything away from the message they were saying. I noticed that the one who first complained never actually read the posts, so he didn't care about content.

As for my frustration and upset, you are right, they are very present. As much as I try to do what I read in the NT, and have the Spirit guide my every action, I fail often. Frustration is usually the first step. Anger is something I MUST rid myself of the minute I feel it or I will die, not only spiritually like it says in the bible, but bodily also. But I am positive you would feel frustrated also if the administrators (of which you are one, but if you weren't) would call you a liar, or tell you what your position is on a subject when you have repeatedly told them the contrary, or call your posts "ignorant". All of these thing MANY here have heard from ND/Knight/Whoever else he is. I can understand when someone has a firm conviction they are right that they try and support their view. To be human, this will happen every day.

But to ridicule anyone (not just me) for their opposing views is what frustrates me. To call valid points "ignorant" is the very reason most forums HAVE adimistrators/moderators. To STOP things from getting to the name calling point, not to instigate them.

Thank you for your words about my health. God bless you and all those you care deeply about, Becky. I pray that god's Spirit never leaves you for even a moment nor, in a moment of anger like I do have, that you never push the Holy Spirit out to express the feeling of anger.
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
HsG,

HsG,

I think you still might be confused. “Judge Rightly” was and still is one of the news articles. You will find it under the heading TheologyOnLine News Only an administrator, a moderator, or a subscriber can start these articles. Once they have been posted, even the original poster is expected to follow the rules. All the news articles are open for discussion unless otherwise determined by the original poster. As new “news articles” are posted, those on the front page are “displaced,” so to speak, meaning that while they no longer appear on the home page, they are still considered to be a “news article.”

Once the discussion has started, it is much more lively when the debate is taken to a more personal level. You can post links to other sources, if you like, but long, pasted material bogs down the discussion.

In Christ,
Becky
 

Prisca

Pain Killer
Super Moderator
HsG,

HsG,

You said, “If life is sacred, ALL life is sacred. We can't say ‘This life is blessed by God, this life is worthless to God.’ God has already shown he can even use those considered evil to work His will.”
What, then, is your interpretation of the following verse?
Ezek. 13:19 “And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?”
Who should not die?
Who should not be kept alive?

God seems to think that there are those deserving of death. He tells the people they profane Him among His people by not handing out proper judgment. How do we reconcile what God has commanded of us and how someone like you feels about it?
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Re: HsG,

Re: HsG,

Becky said:

Who should not die?
Who should not be kept alive?

God seems to think that there are those deserving of death. He tells the people they profane Him among His people by not handing out proper judgment. How do we reconcile what God has commanded of us and how someone like you feels about it?
Becky, didn't you realize that Jesus bought us out of the Old Covenant? While the basic rules still aplly to sinners, they don't apply to those full of the faith. This is Pauls message in Romans. It doesn't give us the right to sin because our grace was bought, but we are not under the bondage of those laws. We were brought out of our slavery by Jesus.

Here is something for all of us:

Letting Go

To let go doesn't mean to stop caring,
it means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off,
it's the realization that I can't control another.
To let go is not to enable,
but to allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness,
which means the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try and change or blame another,
I can only change myself.
To let go is not to care for,
but to care about.
To let go is not to fix,
but to be supportive
To let go is not to judge,
but to allow another to be a human being
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes,
but to allow others to effect their own outcomes.
To let go is not to be protective;
it is to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny,
but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold or argue,
but to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to criticize and regulate anyone,
but to try and become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past,
But to grow and live for the future.
To let go is to fear less and love more.

(Author Unknown)
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Re: HsG,

Re: HsG,

Becky said:
I think you still might be confused. “Judge Rightly” was and still is one of the news articles. You will find it under the heading TheologyOnLine News Only an administrator, a moderator, or a subscriber can start these articles. Once they have been posted, even the original poster is expected to follow the rules. All the news articles are open for discussion unless otherwise determined by the original poster. As new “news articles” are posted, those on the front page are “displaced,” so to speak, meaning that while they no longer appear on the home page, they are still considered to be a “news article.”

Once the discussion has started, it is much more lively when the debate is taken to a more personal level. You can post links to other sources, if you like, but long, pasted material bogs down the discussion.

In Christ,
Becky
Just a very curious question Becky. You state
Only an administrator, a moderator, or a subscriber can start these articles.
. This article was supposedly started by Bob Enyart himself, since it is that name that started the thread. Yet the forum also states it has no church backing. Mr Enyart has a church in Denver. If what you say here is true, then you DO have church sponsorship. And Mr Enyart must also be either a administrator, moderator, or PAID subscriber. Or did he not have to pay for his membership?

And IF Mr Enyart is a subscriber (or even a member) why can we not discuss his views with HIM? Or are we saying that someone who IS a moderator can use his name in here and not have to clarify that he isn't who he says he is?

But the thread about 'Judging' was placed here for a reason. You stated it was here to stir up discussion, which it did. Yet an adimistrator allowed and encouraged and also started it to get out of hand with the 'name calling' on anyone opposing the view. Again, this is the only place where that is ever allowed to happen. Anywhere else that a moderator was the reason for a thread to get out of hand would no longer BE a maderator. As you yourself have shown, it IS very possible to point out your views with me or anyone else without it ending as a name calling event. Chance is very occupied with his school, and p[robably now only has time to post in the "subscribers" area, and this is probably true with drransom also (except for the school part). So why is it that one other has the right to call us stupid or ignorant or whatever he wants just because you recently appointed him an administrator? He has kicked out recently more than webmaster has claimed were ever kicked out before (webmaster said 3 or 4 if I remember right. that many have been sent out in the past few weeks already).

Why can I say something nice about this same moderator, yet get insulted anyway?

I have posted links before. Most people have shown a tendency to ignore the link, just as they ignore the copy here. If it is considered lengthy reading in here, is it shorter reading at the site of origen?

I will conform to the shorter post idea, not because I am subjucated by the semi-veiled threat of expulsion, but because there are still those who are reading who don't "know" God.

Bless you again Becky. Any answer to the above questions would be appreciated, as long as it is kept in a friendly manner, without new names being applied.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Just for a matter of humor, you had stated
Don't attempt to make your whole argument in one post.
1500 posts later and I STILL haven't made my whole argument. lol

For the serious side, you said;
How do we reconcile what God has commanded of us and how someone like you feels about it?

First, I want to know what you meant by the term someone like you?

Second, God was not talking to you at all. That is a specific story for a specifc time, not an all around order. If you look at the statement itself (the verse) you will see that he is talking about barlely and bread, of which is not something we are dealing with in the death penalty. That is talking about betrayal and selling out. If you notice, and you want to follow this order, then show me how you can be perfect in your condemnation of anyone? Nathon D. has already misjudged me, and I would be dead if the Enyart rules were enforced simply because he doesn't like me or my stance. He would call me "pro-abortion" and by the rules of your monarchy, all he has to do is get two friends more to accuse me (which are probably subscibers here), and I would be innocently dead.

since you can NOT ever bring someone back from the dead, yet death will touch each of our lives at one time, to NOT act would be better than to act and kill a messanger of God by accident. And don't tell me it won't happen. Jesus commented about Jeruselum and how they killed all of God's prophets.

As I said, Jesus purchased our souls by His Grace. ALL of OURS, not just those you or anyone else picks. He then gave us the freedom to use his purchase. He set us free, and then let us decide where we want to go. That is what Jesus on earth did for us. Why are many here trying to tell us that freedom was never bought? That now we are slaves to those who speak loudest and longest?
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
hsc-First you stated that you did not use profanity and asked for an example, here it is. Your post:
How would you react if somebody raped and murdered your child? I have often been asked this question by supporters of the death penalty, and my answer is: My first reaction would probably be a strong wish to cut the balls off the bastard, to tear him apart and kill him.
Perhaps you don't consider that profane, I do.

Next; I didn’t say they were your statistics, I said that you gave them. I stated I trust what God says will happen if we have a swift, painful death penalty over what any man, or man’s statistics or polls might say.

Nor did I say I was God. I stated my authority comes from God because I am reciting His instructions from His Holy Word, the Bible. And because I am speaking from the Bible I have full authority. Your authority comes, not from the Bible, but from what you think in your gut is right, not from what God has told us.

You are like the Pharisees that Jesus chastised:
Mat 15:3-9 “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? “For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ “But you say, (hsc), ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. “Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Wow, Jesus says that if a child curses his parents he is to be put to death. But I am sure that hsc is smarter than that. You know in your gut that that would be wrong don’t you hsc? You know better than Jesus don’t you?

As for the manuscript “The First Five Days”, I did read it and it was great. I remember feeling very happy and good inside, until I remembered that it was just a story and we still live in a crime ridden society where over twenty thousand innocent people are murdered every year, (not counting the million or so innocent babies that are butchered in abortion mills).

And that story does not state that torture is permitted, nor is the execution to be overly prolonged. It is not instant because it is to be painful, so as to keep others from committing the same acts. Was God evil or wrong for having people stoned to death in the Bible? A pretty bad way to go. His own Son was killed in the most horrible way imaginable, as a sign to us of how horrible the price of sin. The death penalty is key to showing people they need God.

How many people do you think Mr. Enyart wants to be put to death? The answer is none. Because if people will not commit capitol crimes than no one will be put to death. A swift, painful death penalty not only protects the victim and victim’s family, but the would be murderer and his family as well, because he will not commit the crime. That is God’s way and it is merciful.
 
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His_saving_Grac

New member
Maybe this will help you see where I am coming from, and all those living by the grace of God through the purchase of Jesus

Legalism in Religion (Daniel Taylor The Myth of Certainty)

The great weapon of authoritarianism, secular or religious, is legalism: the manufacturing and manipulation of rules for the purpose of illegitemate control. Perhaps the most damaging of all the perversions of God's will and Christs work, legalism clings to law at the expense of grace, to the letter in place of the spirit.

Legalism is one more expression of the compulsion for security. If we can vigorously enforce the exhaustive list of do's and don'ts (with an emphasis on external behavior), we not only can control unpredictable human beings but have Gods favor as well...

Legalistic authoritarianism shows itself in the confusion of the Christian principle of unity with a human insistence on unimanity. Unity is a profound, even mystical quality. It takes great effort to acheive, yet mere effort will never produce it; it is a source of great security, yet demands great risk.

Unanamity, on the other hand, is very tidy. It can be measured, monitered, and enforced. It is largely external, whereas unity is essentially internal. Its primary goal is corrected behavior, while unity is a right spirit. Unanimity insists on many orthodoxies in addition to those of belief and behavior, including orthodoxy of experiance and vocabulary. That is, believers are expected to come to God in similar ways, to have similar experiances with God, and to use accepted phrases in describing those experiances.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Lion said:
hsc-First you stated that you did not use profanity and asked for an example, here it is. You said:

Wow, Jesus says that if a child curses his parents he is to be put to death. But I am sure that hsc is smarter than that. You know in your gut that that would be wrong don’t you hsc? You know better than Jesus don’t you?

As for the manuscript “The First Five Days”, I did read it and it was great. I remember feeling very happy and good inside, until I remembered that it was just a story and we still live in a crime ridden society where over twenty thousand innocent people are murdered every year, (not counting the million or so innocent babies that are butchered in abortion mills).

And that story does not state that torture is permitted, nor is the execution to be overly prolonged. It is not instant because it is to be painful, so as to keep others from committing the same acts. Was God evil or wrong for having people stoned to death in the Bible? A pretty bad way to go. His own Son was killed in the most horrible way imaginable, as a sign to us of how horrible the price of sin. The death penalty is key to showing people they need God.

How many people do you think Mr. Enyart wants to be put to death? The answer is none. Because if people will not commit capitol crimes than no one will be put to death. A swift, painful death penalty not only protects the victim and victim’s family, but the would be murderer and his family as well, because he will not commit the crime. That is God’s way and it is merciful.
Let me know when you read the entire bible. We will discuss it whan you have attained a bit of scriptural knowledge.

Swift and painless death, and YOU say you read it. Oh Well. Those who slander will also lie to do so.
 
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His_saving_Grac

New member
You know Lion, I should have expected this from someone who can not see the difference between a "G" and a "C", but I didn't look for it.

How would you react if somebody raped and murdered your child? I have often been asked this question by supporters of the death penalty, and my answer is: My first reaction would probably be a strong wish to cut the (-----) off the (--------), to tear him apart and kill him.

Since you are just searching for ways to attack, I will point out to those who can control themselves to look back to page 8 of this thread. In it is this exact quote, posted by me. The problem is it isn't WRITTEN by me. The link to the writer is above this first paragraph on that page. This is the link pasted there: http://www.fdp.dk/

To those who know better, please excuse this since it normally is obvious to anyone.

Becky, do you see why the link is worthless? Here is an obvious Enyartian who never clicked on the link, but instead decided to accuse ME of writing the foul language. As always, it seems the slander comes from those who are full of hatred and the urge to kill.

Lion, real responsible of you there. Nice to see that you go off the handle without knowing what you are talking about. And there was only one other person who continually called me HSC. That person is on ignore, which I guess you figured out before your name change. You will have to do it again, since that is where I will place you again.

Becky, I do appologize for the harsh wording this writer used. I somehow missed ended up with more of a cut and paste than I intended. I am removing the offending words.
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Hgs-Ahhhh so you finally went back and read your own post did you? Well, that’s a start.
Obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate. The main tool of the befuddled. If you can’t answer the question, or you get caught in the wrong, obfuscate then run.

The rules do not state it has to be you that said it, only that you posted it. What should we expect next, pornographic pictures that you didn’t take but just decided to post on this thread? You are responsible for what you place on this page, just as you are responsible for what you say.

As for me saying: “You said:” Instead of “You posted:” I apologize. I have gone back and corrected the error.

When you, as a supposed Christian, state that you don’t know if abortion is wrong or not, and then completely dismiss the Word of God on a subject as important as the death penalty, you need to realize that you will be held responsible for the results that your words bring about.

I also noticed you refused to answer my challenge for showing one place in the Bible where the death penalty is abrogated.

As for me being someone that you have spoken with on another thread, you are wrong. Lion and Lamb are my only avatars on this forum and have been for at least two years.

Reading the Bible? Twice straight through cover-to-cover, (and numerous times in the study of passages and books, as well as a year of New Testament Greek and two years of seminary), number three in the works. How bout you? No, forget that and just answer the real question.

Death penalty?

PS-The apostles and Christ all support the death penalty. I even showed you the verse where Jesus affirms the death penalty for a child that curses his parents. Here’s one from Paul:
Rom. 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
I know you consider all killing murder, (except maybe abortion although you aren’t really sure), it’s just that your definition and God’s don’t seem to jive.
 
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