ECT Abraham before he believed

[glorydaz]

So why does Paul contrast the conceptions and call one of them the ordinary way? What does that make the other? Where are the expressions that they actually did that usually are abundant in OT narrative?

I don't know if anyone else ends up answering this, but I can't read any farther without commenting on this silliness. Of the flesh means that Abraham agreed to take Hagar...relying on his own efforts at having a son. That's it. A son was promised, but Abraham refused to wait until God's time was right. There was no immaculate conception involved in Isaac's birth.

 

[Interplanner]

It wouldn't have been. It would have been a regenerated womb but the question was whether God created directly in that womb at the same time. The question is asked for two reasons:
1, the lack of the usual expressions from the OT referring to sexual activity
2, the line by Paul. Ordinary conception would have taken place in both cases in your comment. But he said one was not ordinary.
3, Sarah in 18:12. A realistic translation of "After I'm worn out..." is 'we are not active any longer.' The pleasure she's referring to is not from sex but the general joy of bearing and raising a child.

Please remember what happened with Isaac is a picture of all believers, so if God was making a point about a conception that was direct, I don't know why it couldn't happen. More than one person also was taken up to heaven without death!

 

[kayaker]

Here, you just start to speculate and add things to scripture that are not there.
Scripture does not tell us the parentage of Tamar, the mother of Pharez and Zerah.

I shared with Rainee that "I suggest" Tamar was a daughter of Levi, and concluded with "food for thought." But, don't you find it rather unusual that Tamar's parentage was not in Scripture? After all, she is a maternal ancestress in the lineage of Jesus (Matthew 1:3 KJV), mother of Pharez (Luke 3:33 KJV). Tamar would have been the age to have been the daughter of one of Judah's brothers. Judah did send her to her father's house to wait for Shelah to come of age: "... and Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house" (Genesis 38:11 KJV almost suggests neither Tamar, nor her father lived in the vicinity of Judah's location. Tamar didn't just dwell in her father's house... Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house. Where did she come from, then? Evidently not where Judah's Canaanite wife came from (Genesis 38:1, 2).

By Judah transferring Er's widow Tamar to his next son Onan suggests to me Judah was following the Law of Deuteronomy 25:5 KJV, Deuteronomy 25:6 KJV. Do note the law implies that the deceased's "name be not put out of Israel." Interestingly, Judah's sons by his Canaanite wife were NOT ancestrally intact Hebrew/Israelites as corroborated by Abraham (Genesis 24:3 KJV), Isaac and Rebekah (Genesis 27:46 KJV, Genesis 28:1, 2, 3) corroborating the Law of Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, affirmed by Ezra 9:1, 2, 7. Therefore, I can only conclude Tamar was the only Israelite in the unions with Er, and Onan. So, my speculation that Tamar was Israelite it not unfounded.

Furthermore, can you find a single place in Scripture where Leviticus 21:9 KJV was ever effected? I never read about an Israelite Priestess being burned, or threatened with death by fire. Then, what was the point in that Law? The only other place in Scripture where that law came anywhere near into play was Genesis 38:24 KJV. Where did the Law of Leviticus 21:9 come from if not by Judah's decision to burn Tamar? Where did Abraham's infamous quest for a wife for Isaac, and Isaac's and Rebekah's dire concerns for a wife for Jacob come from? Noah sanctioned procreation between the descendants of Japheth and Shem in Genesis 9:27 KJV. Noah drew a line in the sand separating Ham and Canaan, being the land of Canaan, precluding the Canaanites from being co-progenitors with Japheth and Shem. I tend to think Noah, Abraham, and Isaac had God's intention in mind before the Laws of Leviticus 7:1, 2, 3 affirmed by Ezra 9:1, 2, 9 some 1,400 years after Judah hooked up with a Canaanite wife.

So, Judah breached covenant hooking up with a Canaanitess, but it appears as though Judah got the message when God PERSONALLY slew his two elder Canaanite sons (Genesis 38:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11). How often have you read in Scripture that God personally slew anyone? Do you think Tamar got the message? Judah certainly did (Genesis 38:11 KJV)! And, so did Shelah, btw! God intervened leaving Tamar no viable brothers-in-law (Shelah was too young) to hook-up with. That only left Judah, and Tamar played the harlot and kept JUDAH's name from being snuffed out of Israel (Deuteronomy 25:5, 6). All Judah had was a third and surviving Canaanite son named Shelah.

The tribe of Judah is illustrated in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV being, "The sons of Judah: Pharez, Hezron (Judah's grandson via Pharez, 1Chronicles 2:5 KJV)"... and so forth. Did you happen to hear Judah's Canaanite son included in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV? Not at all... please consider now 1Chronicles 4:21, 22. [EDITED OUT: Also, consider Numbers 13:6 KJV... Caleb was the son of Hezron (1Chronicles 2:18 KJV) who was the son of Pharez (1Chronicles 2:5 KJV), who was the son of Judah and Tamar] Had Tamar NOT played the harlot, Judah would not have had a tribe among his brethren. Had Tamar been anyone other than an Israelite (like Judah's Canaanite wife), Pharez and his descendants would NOT have been listed as the tribe of Judah. This further corroborates Tamar was an Israelite.

Being an Israelite, which of Judah's brothers' daughters to you propose Tamar came from? Leviticus 21:9 KJV and Genesis 38:26 leads me to conclude Tamar was a first degree daughter of Levi, and she would be about the age of Judah's Canaanite sons. Sure... that's my best guess. But it's sure more than anyone else has thrown on the table to my knowledge! Do you think Jesus' maternal ancestress (Tamar) via Judah was a Canaanite? If so... then Shelah would both be listed among the tribe of Judah in Chronicles, and Shelah would be listed in the ancestry of Jesus in Matthew 1:1 KJV, Matthew 1:2 KJV, Matthew 1:3 KJV instead of Pharez. Shelah was the elder, btw. So, you may not come to the same conclusions I have; but, you can rest well assured Tamar was NOT a Canaanitess! In fact, I've suggested Ezra saw Tamar as THE remnant to escape Israelite ancestral dilution (Ezra 9:1, 2) in Ezra 9:8 KJV. Wasn't Ezra responsible for Chronicles? Wasn't Moses responsible for Genesis, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and Numbers?

And because of this made-up assumption of yours, you keep building upon the assumption with more assumption.

Long story short, your assumption has no solid foundation.
And as scripture says, if you don't start out building on a solid foundation, you might as well be building on sinking sand.

I appreciate you sharing your legitimate concerns, Tambora. And, this is a discussion that is quite appropriate considering lineages. Judah was an Israelite, but his son Shelah was not an Israelite. Does this bear more reflection on Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Judah's Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3 KJV) was the daughter of the Canaanite Shuah (Genesis 38:2 KJV). Judah's father-in-law Shuah was the son of Keturah (v.2), wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Moses did NOT say Shuah was a son of Abraham... Moses said Shuah was one of "the children of Keturah" (Genesis 25:4 KJV.

Shuah, like his grandson Shelah were "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV), they just weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV, Genesis 25:4 KJV, Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7, 8; Revelation 2:9, 3:9).

So, Tambora... do indeed check my homework... which is vastly more that what Interplaner throws on the table, besides his unfounded speculation that Isaac was a 'picture' of Jesus. If EVER there was a Bible character who exemplified Jesus, it was Joseph! Well, FWIW...

Thanks for listening, Tambora

kayaker

 

[Cross Reference]

Lol, the very man God promised and then began a very distinct people through - the nation Israel.

Yeah, ok, bright boy.

Or as John W might say; take a seat...

...til we believe you have something to say outside of your "I read all these cool books by men, and now I know the Bible..."

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

 

[Cross Reference]

I don't know if anyone else ends up answering this, but I can't read any farther without commenting on this silliness. Of the flesh means that Abraham agreed to take Hagar...relying on his own efforts at having a son. That's it. A son was promised, but Abraham refused to wait until God's time was right. There was no immaculate conception involved in Isaac's birth.

I don't read where Abraham refused but rather was 'persuaded' to second guess God ___ using the law and the promise to do so.. "Hath God not said"?

 

[Cross Reference]

Shuah, like his grandson Shelah were "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV), they just weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV, Genesis 25:4 KJV, Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7, 8; Revelation 2:9, 3:9).


kayaker

Where does Rahab factor in?

 

[Interplanner]

Kyacker wrote:
Shuah, like his grandson Shelah were "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV), they just weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV, Genesis 25:4 KJV, Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9; Romans 9:6, 7, 8; Revelation 2:9, 3:9).

Nope, that is not the sense of Rom 9. You are doing the OT retroactively instead of having the OT interp'd by the NT. Just like 2 Cor 5 says, there is an 'ordinary' understanding of the Jesus or the OT, but we (Christians) now view it all in Christ. We now see a different thing in it than what appears ordinarily (Gr. 'sarkos.')

Likewise, Rom 16's final thought. The Gospel and its mission might be missed by 10K who read the OT, but it is there; God has decreed that it is to be seen now. It is seen in Christ. Only in Christ is the veil taken away.

Paul did not mean what Kayaker means about Rom 9 because Paul was showing that the physical discontinuity was a picture of the person who would have faith and believe, no matter what race, sect, gender, class, education, country, tribe they came from. Paul is not trying to settle genealogical questions; he is trying to get the Gospel out to as many as possible with as few barriers or barricades as possible BECAUSE THEY NO LONGER MATTER TO GOD.

 

[Tambora]

I shared with Rainee that "I suggest" Tamar was a daughter of Levi, and concluded with "food for thought."

Yeah, I know.

Your foundation is built on assumption.

But, don't you find it rather unusual that Tamar's parentage was not in Scripture?

And there you have it ...... her parentage is not in Scripture.

Now, that's a fact, not assumption. You should stick with the fact, not assumption.

It's a fact you recognize, but you don't want to accept the fact.
Instead, the facts don't satisfy your doctrine, so you keep building on your assumption with more assumptions.

I mean, just look at the lengths you try to balance assumption upon assumption just so you can add something that scripture never does (her parentage).

Thanks for listening, Tambora

:e4e:

Remember, if the foundation is unsteady, the whole building is unsteady.
It's a house of cards.

 

[Jacob]

When he left Haran.

Are you sure?

Acts 7:2 NASB - 2 And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

 

[Interplanner]

OK, so it was from even further.

 

[Jacob]

OK, so it was from even further.

Where was Abraham from? Did Abraham believe before he left where he was from?

 

[Danoh]

Are you sure?

Acts 7:2 NASB - 2 And he said, "Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,

Hey! Not fair! You cheated!

You believed the truth of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and relied on the Bible for an answer over the endless books of men in their equally endless notions "about" the Bible.

Not fair! Not fair!

 

[Interplanner]

Where was Abraham from? Did Abraham believe before he left where he was from?

Yes, that's why he left. What ethnos was he when he left?

 

[Danoh]

Genesis 11:
27. Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot.
28. And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.

31. And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

Genesis 15:
6. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7. And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Nehemiah 9:
7. Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;

Isaiah 23:
13. Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin.

Ezekiel 23:
14. And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the
images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
15. Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them
princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:

 

[Jacob]

Yes, that's why he left. What ethnos was he when he left?

Was he a Hebrew?

 

[Tambora]

Was he a Hebrew?

Genesis 14 KJV
(13) And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

 

[Jacob]

Genesis 14 KJV
(13) And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Did he become a Hebrew at some point?

 

[Interplanner]

I heard a lecture by a rabbi at Portland State U who said that Hebrew is just a variation on the stem for Abraham's name. As you may know most words are 3 consonant stems. The vowels are usually in the pointings, but Aleph is one exception. Add a little breath to Abraham's name when you say it and vary the vowels a bit and you're there.

That seemed more likely than Heber in Gen 10 who is quite a few generations back.

The lecture also mentioned an ancient town called Habiru, but I've lost the details he was drawing out.

 

[Jacob]

I heard a lecture by a rabbi at Portland State U who said that Hebrew is just a variation on the stem for Abraham's name. As you may know most words are 3 consonant stems. The vowels are usually in the pointings, but Aleph is one exception. Add a little breath to Abraham's name when you say it and vary the vowels a bit and you're there.

That seemed more likely than Heber in Gen 10 who is quite a few generations back.

The lecture also mentioned an ancient town called Habiru, but I've lost the details he was drawing out.

I know Abraham was a Hebrew. The question was what makes Abraham a Hebrew. For example, Paul was a Hebrew.

 

[God's Truth]

I heard a lecture by a rabbi at Portland State U who said that Hebrew is just a variation on the stem for Abraham's name. As you may know most words are 3 consonant stems. The vowels are usually in the pointings, but Aleph is one exception. Add a little breath to Abraham's name when you say it and vary the vowels a bit and you're there.

That seemed more likely than Heber in Gen 10 who is quite a few generations back.

The lecture also mentioned an ancient town called Habiru, but I've lost the details he was drawing out.

Who would want to listen to you when you keep doing things Jesus says not to do?

Matthew 23:8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.