Abortion-a crying shame. (HOF thread)

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Originally posted by Poly

Torture? I've never said anything about torture. If you're referring to a quick death for homos then you're right.
Death by stoning, the preferred biblical method for killing malefactors would be considered torture by most modern societies.

I'm sure you're idea of slavery is anything but biblical. (nice way to take advantage of what most people will assume you mean when you say "human slavery"....cheap)
This thread is not about human slavery, but to address your point, I understand human slavery to be the buying and selling of human beings as chattel property for the purpose of involuntary servitude.

Is that different from your definition of human slavery? :think:
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Knight

Run like the wind Zakath!!!!

When the going gets tough... Zakath gets sick... or gets going to a meeting.
Well some of us actually do have to work sometimes, Knight.

Gotta afford that Internet connection so I can help build up your post counts... :geek:
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Poly

See? There's Poly reading Psalm 14:1 "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'"...

And the wise man proclaims it with his keyboard. :geek:
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Crow
...You think that the President rules in a Democracy?...wait, no, Republic?....wait, no, Representative Democracy?...oh, whatever the heck this is?
Just to ease your confusion since you appear to have missed that high school civics lesson, the United States is a democratic republic.

The office of President is the chief executive and has authority over the executive branch of the government and the military. When the political party to which he belongs has a sufficient majority in both houses of Congress, it could be said that, as the head of his political party, he "rules" for all practical purposes.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Originally posted by cattyfan

thank you for the compliment. I'm humbled by those of you who've given their time and wisdom to help teach me.

I've never been good about admitting mistakes or talking about such a personal, deeply-held opinion. But after reading through this thread I was compelled to discuss how the Holy Spirit and those who belong here on TOL have changed me. I only hope this helps others whose hearts have been hardened by a society that encourages the blatant disregard for human life.
What a blessing you are to The Body of Christ, TOL, future children that might just not be aborted because of your opinion, myself and even the entire world. Thanks for your honesty and your seeking (and finding) Truth. I bless you, and ask The Lord God, my Father, to bless you; with all manner of spiritual and physical blessings. Grace and peace be multiplied in your life. The Lord is glorified by your testimony, and when He is lifted up, He is able to draw all the world to Himself. :thumb:
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Zakath

Just to ease your confusion since you appear to have missed that high school civics lesson, the United States is a democratic republic.

The office of President is the chief executive and has authority over the executive branch of the government and the military. When the political party to which he belongs has a sufficient majority in both houses of Congress, it could be said that, as the head of his political party, he "rules" for all practical purposes.

In theory, Zak. In practice, it's got elements of several systems, hence my tongue-in-cheek post.

With the Supreme Court free to function in a loose-cannon capacity if it so desires, a system of rising to the top that requires an expenditure of funds that leave any candidate indebited to a political party and it's various donors, and having to prostitute himself to the whims of a fickle voting public, the President has power to lead whoever feels like following him, and often ends up on the other end of the leash.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Crow

In theory, Zak. In practice, it's got elements of several systems, hence my tongue-in-cheek post.
Watch those "tongue-in-cheek" things, it's too easy to bite yourself... ;)

With the Supreme Court free to function in a loose-cannon capacity if it so desires, a system of rising to the top that requires an expenditure of funds that leave any candidate indebited to a political party and it's various donors, and having to prostitute himself to the whims of a fickle voting public, the President has power to lead whoever feels like following him, and often ends up on the other end of the leash.
It seems to be pretty much what the founders intended, if you read their writings. They wanted the branches of the government somewhat at odds with one another to keep too much power from accumulating in any one place and producing some form of tyranny.

The government was designed to make the president go cap in hand to the Congress for money while the Congress depends on the Executive branch to enforce its laws. The courts were supposed to ride herd on the other two branches to keep them within constitutional bounds while the president appoints justices and Congress approves them and funds them.


All in all, the system has worked pretty well over the last 200+ years. Not that there haven't been rough times, but generally things work out and the Republic shakes, rattles, and rolls on down the road. As Mick Jagger and the boys once sang, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."


I'd prefer this form of government to just about anything I've ever seen implemented. Theocracies, included.
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Zakath

Watch those "tongue-in-cheek" things, it's too easy to bite yourself... ;)

It seems to be pretty much what the founders intended, if you read their writings. They wanted the branches of the government somewhat at odds with one another to keep too much power from accumulating in any one place and producing some form of tyranny.

The government was designed to make the president go cap in hand to the Congress for money while the Congress depends on the Executive branch to enforce its laws. The courts were supposed to ride herd on the other two branches to keep them within constitutional bounds while the president appoints justices and Congress approves them and funds them. As Mick Jagger and the boys once sung, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."

All in all, the system has worked pretty well over the last 200+ years. Not that there haven't been rough times, but generally things work out and the Republic shakes, rattles, and rolls on down the road.

I'd prefer this form of government to just about anything I've ever seen implemented. Theocracies, included.

This form of government has done well. It's not perfect, but those pesky humans keep mucking things up.

My point being, we have a government in which there is a designated leader, but when all is said and done he's not the head of the government.

Oh, well, back to abortion...

Zakath, do you think that elective abortion of a fetus is something that should be legal?
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Crow

This form of government has done well. It's not perfect, but those pesky humans keep mucking things up.
Darn those humans. If we could just deal with them, we could really get things to run smoothly, don't you think? ;)

My point being, we have a government in which there is a designated leader, but when all is said and done he's not the head of the government.
He's the "head of state". I'm not sure we have a single "head of the government".

Oh, well, back to abortion...

Zakath, do you think that elective abortion of a fetus is something that should be legal?
Yes, I do.

My reasoning is that I believe that the less government involvement in the lives of the people, the better. Thus as few things as possible should be illegal. Just those necessary to allow the smooth running of society. Based on human history, this is a somewhat idealistic view, I do realize that. So, over time, we've tried to compromise between too much government interference (totalitarianism) and too much personal freedom (anarchy). The pendulum swings back and forth and tends, over time, to settle somewhere mid-way. I'm not sure the abortion pendulum has had sufficient time to swing to center yet.

That said, I believe that abortion is the wrong choice in the greater majority of circumstances, but I do not think it should be completely illegal.

I could say similar things about any number of topics ranging from divorce to going to war.

That's merely my opinion. I do not, at this point, want to endure another debate about "absolute" morality...

[edited to fix incorrect tags - Z]
 
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cattyfan

Guest
originally posted by Zakath

That said, I believe that abortion is the wrong choice in the greater majority of circumstances, but I do not think it should be completely illegal.


given that statement, Zakath, what kind of restriction on abortion would you support?
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Zakath


That said, I believe that abortion is the wrong choice in the greater majority of circumstances, but I do not think it should be completely illegal.

I could say similar things about any number of topics ranging from divorce to going to war.

That's merely my opinion. I do not, at this point, want to endure another debate about "absolute" morality...

Fair enough. I'll try to stay away from absolute morality.

You say that abortion should not be completely illegal. I agree with that, but suspect that it's a much more restrictive view than yours. I have no problem with ectopic pregnancies being aborted. No good can come of trying to save this pregnancy at this point in our knowledge and technology. I have no problem if there is an acute life-threatening condition that would kill the mother, such as would occur in some injuries or when you have some early ruptured placenta previas, and other clear threats to the mother in which the fetus cannot be saved. I know of a case where a woman was found to have advanced uterine cancer early in her pregnancy, and the cancer was incompatable with not only her life but the fetal life, but a hysterectomy bought her a slim chance of recovery. It's tragic, but I don't think abortion should be illegal there either.

In what circumstances do you think that abortion should be illegal? Personally, when I supported elective abortion, even then I could not support elective abortion of a 26 week fetus. Where do you draw the line?
 

Sozo

New member
Originally posted by Crow


He ain't so bad once you get to know him. But don't tell Sozo that. :chuckle:

Hey! I have a reputation to keep! What are you trying to do to me?

:D
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Originally posted by Zakath



The solution to human problems are not always as simple as passing another law... something you Christians should be the first to acknowledge.

The point is that the law not just to punish. When the laws are just they tend to teach people what is right. When atrocities are made legal by a society people use it to justify there own wicked behavior. Hitler was a master at it
 

Sozo

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Rest of the Story

Originally posted by deardelmar

When atrocities are made legal by a society people use it to justify there own wicked behavior.

Well stated! :thumb:
 

Crow

New member
If someone you know is considering abortion...

We cannot know how many abortions could have been prevented if women knew there were resources availiable to help them whether they chose to keep their child or put that child up for adoption. Financial needs are often cited as a reason women abort their children, as well as lack of housing, employment, child care, and medical care.

There are resources availiable and people who are ready to work with a woman in a crisis pregnancy and provide for her needs and the needs of her child, and not just counseling, which isn't going to put a roof over her head, food on her table, provide daycare for her other kids, or put maternity clothes on her back. Here are some groups who will assist them.

Birthright 1-800-550-4900 Help with adoption or keeping the baby and obtaining financial and non-financial resources.

Pregnancy Resource Center locater Search that locates assistance by zip code.

American Adoptions Helps those who wish to place their baby for adoption find resources and choose an adoptive family.

There are many other resources out there. We never know if someday we will be put in the position of being able to assist a woman to give birth to her child instead of aborting the baby. We need to be ready and willing to help these women.
 
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cattyfan

Guest
still waiting for Zakath to bother answering the direct questions he was asked...(I'm hoping he'll answer in a straight-forward manner, rather than talking around the question as so many people try.)
 

smothers

BANNED
Banned
misinformation

misinformation

Ran across this on the web:

The attached article succintly describes a dilema I have. I don't trust the pro-life crowd to tell the truth about abortion. Nor do I trust planned-parenthood either. Both have a religious/ideological/monetary axe to grind.

I don't think a fetus is a person until it has brain activity. That doesn't happen until about week 20. A non-person does not have rights and thus can be "killed" at the discretion of the mother.

I view the pictures on these threads as suspect at best. They may or may not be doctored. Whatever the truth, they do not answer the fundamental question: At what point is a fetus a person with the same rights as others? I think that point is 20 weeks.

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Abortion: Sides Battle For Cyberspace Domination
by Patrick Goodenough
January 11, 2001


(CNSNews.com) - Alarmed that women looking for abortion information on the Internet tend to come up with pro-life sites - some containing disturbing images - one of Britain's largest abortion agencies has launched an Internet "gateway" to overcome the problem.

But pro-lifers say the campaign shows that they have truth on their side, that women may reconsider when faced with the reality of what they are considering doing to their unborn children.

Marie Stopes International says its research shows many women looking for "non-judgmental" information about abortion on the World Wide Web instead end up with inaccurate information and shocking pictures of abortions.

"To protect vulnerable women from the worst excesses of anti-abortion websites," MSI said, it has set up a "safe abortion internet gateway" at abortion-help.co.uk, which it hopes will attract more search hits.

"There are sites out there that purport to be offering non-judgmental advice and once you get into them you're confronted with these fairly difficult images, a lot of which ... are manufactured," MSI spokesman Tony Kerridge explained.

In Britain, he said, pro-life organizations - "for whatever reason, I don't know how" -tend to appear higher up the list of sites offered by Internet search engines.

"If women type in keywords [in a search engine like Yahoo!], they tend to get a list that will have anti-abortion organizations before pro-choice organizations.

"A lot of women were deterred from exploring the Internet further because they came up against that kind of blank wall - that was the general thrust that came back from the qualitative research we did."

MSI is advertising the new site address, he said, and "looking into ways of getting our name further up the list on search engines and on more search engines so that we're more prominent."

Kerridge accused some pro-life sites of using deceptive methods.

One anti-abortion group, he said, had set up a site using the name of a pro-abortion organization, but with the suffix .org rather than .com, in a deliberate attempt to mislead.

"People were genuinely typing in what they thought was [the name of] a genuine site that would give non-directive advice and the first thing they saw was this graphic imagery.

"There are people out there who aren't that confident with the Internet, and it's unfair that they should be confronted with that. They're going in for some information to help them make a decision, and they come across particularly nasty materials, almost pornographic stuff."

Some sites, Kerridge charged, used graphics that had been "doctored" with special software or blatantly untrue captions.

Pictures purporting to be "aborted fetuses" were actually stillborn babies. "They'll present a 20-week fetus as an eight-week fetus, for example. They're playing mind-games. We've even seen things that have obviously been doctored. They'll go to pretty much any lengths."

Kerridge also accused some pro-life groups of "misinformation."

Asked for an example, he said they were "forever banging on about what they call post-abortion trauma syndrome." Yet MSI offers women free post-abortion counseling, he said, and "I think less than two percent take it up."

"Most women, their immediate response to having a termination is relief - they've solved the problem, they couldn't contemplate having a baby at that particular point in their lives."

In the FAQ (frequently-asked questions) section of the new abortion site, the question "How will I feel afterwards?" gets the answer: "Very few women experience feelings of extreme guilt or depression after abortion. Initially, most of our clients report feelings of relief, bit it is not uncommon to feel a bit 'low' for a few days."

'Money-spinning business'

MSI carries out around 35,000 abortions a year. Last July it set up a service enabling women to book online for a consultation leading to an abortion.

Invited to respond to its latest campaign, the British pro-life charity Life (lifeuk.org) said MSI was not offering "honest, straightforward help and advice" as it claims.

"By failing to tell the truth about the effects of abortion on the physical and mental health of women they are denying women the right to make a fully informed decision," said Life spokesperson Rachel Heath.

"Abortion always has two victims; one dead, the other wounded," she said. "Where is the practical help and advice for those women who want to keep their unborn child?"

Heath said abortion was a "big money-spinning business and MSI is one cog in the wheel."

Meanwhile the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (spuc.org.uk) said the MSI initiative "proves that the pro-abortionists are becoming ever more desperate to get their message across."

"The campaign emphasizes choice, but in fact it is a campaign against freedom of speech and information," said spokesman Dominic Baster.

"It is a tacit admission that pro-lifers have truth on their side, and that many women think twice about aborting their unborn child when faced with the reality of what abortion entails. Every surgical abortion stops a baby's heart from beating, and this is the truth which Marie Stopes International wants to hide."
 
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