A Saviour unto Israel

[beloved57]

The rejection or casting away of national israel as a whole, that is the majority except for a small remnant, does not mean that God's Promise to save all Israel Isa 45:17 was postponed until a later date, No for that Promise is being fulfilled in the Salvation of His Church , The Body of Christ, the Seed of Abraham according to Faith Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's [ Body the Church], then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What can be more plainer as to who Abraham's Heirs of Promise are ?? Remember Heb 11:9

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Yes, Those who belong to Christ under the New Covenant Church in Ga 3:29 and Isaac and Jacob of the Old Covenant are all Heirs together with Abraham of the Same Promise !

This Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29 is also the same as that Holy Nation 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Notice that the Election within that cast away nation did partake of the Salvation promised to Israel, Paul points that out Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The Election obtained what ? Isa 45:17, Everlasting Salvation in the Lord, and the rest of Israel that shall be saved will come out of the Gentiles, the Rest of Abraham's non jewish Seed of Promise ! There is no future Salvation Promise for ethnic jews beyond !

 

[Ps82]

Hi Beloved,
Were these meant to be your first two things for us to discuss?

quote

Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

FIRST:

Verse 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Paul is talking about the practice of circumcision. The Jews felt that Gentiles needed to become Jews in order to follow the Jewish Christ, but Paul was telling them that there is no outward sign in that flesh that can be performed to turn a person into a Jew ... neither can a person just call themselves a Jew and really be one.

Paul understood that Christ did not have the goal of turning Gentiles into Jews, but rather about building a kingdom of his subjects made up of Jews and Gentiles.

SECOND:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

The truth is that the only was to be a Jew is to be one inwardly (biologically, genetically). Pertaining to the Gentiles the circumcision is a figurative and that it relates to a change in ones heart ... and new spiritual life given to him as a gift from Christ (aka: Baptism of the Holy Spirit). These people with a changed heart and the Holy Spirit in them can then praise the Savior by the ability given them from God.

It is not the job of the Jews to "follow the letter of the law" regarding circumcision of the Gentiles, but rather to accept them as follows of Christ by the evidence of their changed hearts and having the gift of the Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

The Church is the Holy Temple of God !

The Church is the Holy Temple of God !

Eph 2:21

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Is this comment above made about the Church, the Body of Christ ? Yes indeed it is. This Holy Temple is the Church comprised of both jew and Gentile converts to Christ. Now is this a literal Temple ? When I say literal I mean is it true to fact ? The answer is Yes, Yes its literal, but Spiritual, no its not a literal physical temple. However this is now the Only Holy Temple God has and owns as His 1 Cor 3:16-17

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here in Vs 17 the Temple is preceded by the definite Article hence The one and Only Holy Temple of God is in view !

And again this Holy Temple is the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Spirit of God dwells therein, or makes His Home there ! Its His Rest ! Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

This Temple has for its foundation stone, The Lord Jesus Christ. Note Paul's comments about this and to this Holy Temple here 1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation[of a building] can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

What other Temple would God have a Higher regard for and interest in ? Notice what Paul writes about God's care for His Temple 1 Cor 3:17

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Yet many today in man made religion believe God looks to in the future to dwell in a literal physical temple in the middle east, a temple that obviously does not have Christ as its cornerstone foundation. Are we sure we want to believe in such a temple of God, that does not have His Son as the Chief Cornerstone ? That is playing with fire !

 

[Ps82]

Eph 2:21

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Is this comment above made about the Church, the Body of Christ ? Yes indeed it is. This Holy Temple is the Church comprised of both jew and Gentile converts to Christ. Now is this a literal Temple ? When I say literal I mean is it true to fact ? The answer is Yes, Yes its literal, but Spiritual, no its not a literal physical temple. However this is now the Only Holy Temple God has and owns as His 1 Cor 3:16-17

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here in Vs 17 the Temple is preceded by the definite Article hence The one and Only Holy Temple of God is in view !

And again this Holy Temple is the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Spirit of God dwells therein, or makes His Home there ! Its His Rest ! Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

This Temple has for its foundation stone, The Lord Jesus Christ. Note Paul's comments about this and to this Holy Temple here 1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation[of a building] can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

What other Temple would God have a Higher regard for and interest in ? Notice what Paul writes about God's care for His Temple 1 Cor 3:17

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Yet many today in man made religion believe God looks to in the future to dwell in a literal physical temple in the middle east, a temple that obviously does not have Christ as its cornerstone foundation. Are we sure we want to believe in such a temple of God, that does not have His Son as the Chief Cornerstone ? That is playing with fire !

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I also see the literal side of things and the figurative side that explains things of a spiritual nature which are unseen by men ... at least, at this time.

So, I have to asked: Why can't our LORD have a literal temple from which he rules as well as having a kingdom where his children are the figurative building stones?

IOW, his children ultimate become his nation ... his subjects ... his kingdom ... in whom he lives, leads, and imparts... through whom glory is given to him ... and yet our Lord will also sit and rule from a literal temple place.

Just as the gold, silver, embroidered materials, and colors in the literal tabernacle and in Salomon's temple glorified him ... so will his saints glorify him in his kingdom.

So, I ask: What have you learned that makes you think that both will not exist?

 

[beloved57]

ps 82

I agree with a lot of what you wrote

Then please rehearse with me each point I made !

 

[Ps82]

Hi Beloved57,
If rehearse means take it point by point ... I'll give it a try. At least until I have to leave for a graduation reception.

You wrote:
Eph 2:21

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Is this comment above made about the Church, the Body of Christ ? Yes indeed it is. This Holy Temple is the Church comprised of both jew and Gentile converts to Christ. Now is this a literal Temple ? When I say literal I mean is it true to fact ? The answer is Yes, Yes its literal, but Spiritual, no its not a literal physical temple. However this is now the Only Holy Temple God has and owns as His 1 Cor 3:16-17

I believe that in this case that the passage is referencing the "spiritual aspect" of the growth of God's people into his kingdom. To me this means several things. I believe that because God is IN US by the imparting of HIS Holy Spirit. He is actually dwelling IN US ... We have become his temple here on earth. And it actually goes farther than this... because HE is IN US ... we are IN HIM. I won't elaborate on this now, but it is exciting to discuss. To me this is the Church / Spiritual temple or kingdom. The blocks are the saved souls and the corner stone is Christ.

Yet, this discussion does not rule out that God had a literal tabernacle to be build and HE appeared there and spoke to Moses there. God allowed Solomon to build a literal temple as well and HE showed up to sanctify it.

So, I won't rule out that there may very well be another literal temple to come in the future where the LORD/YHWY will be among men. Time will tell, but I see no reason to rule out that possibility.

Again you shared:

I Cor. 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here in Vs 17 the Temple is preceded by the definite Article hence The one and Only Holy Temple of God is in view !

I would say that this again is talking about the souls that make up the spiritual temple ... which is believers. I do believe that believers are held accountable for what God has given them and that they will suffer loss in the ultimate kingdom for the ways they defile themselves, who are the temple. At this time, I do not believe at this time, that sealed saints loose loose their salvation, but perhaps those who claim to be part of the church, but who are not, but liars, may be destroyed.

More:

And again this Holy Temple is the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Spirit of God dwells therein, or makes His Home there ! Its His Rest ! Ps 132:13-14

13 For the Lord hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

This Temple has for its foundation stone, The Lord Jesus Christ. Note Paul's comments about this and to this Holy Temple here 1 Cor 3:11

11 For other foundation[of a building] can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I get all that ... and agree. God is IN HIS CHURCH ... but the second part of that is expressed in these concepts: Because HE is IN US ... we are IN HIM. We must appear before him and will be held accountable for what we did while in our mortal bodies. This second part refers to literal things ... not just our and God's spiritual position.


Then you asked:

What other Temple would God have a Higher regard for and interest in ? Notice what Paul writes about God's care for His Temple 1 Cor 3:17

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I do believe that God has the higher regard for the "spiritual temple and spiritual kingdom" Christ is now building by the power of the Holy Spirit IN US ... but the spiritual aspect does not rule out that God has used literal temples in the past and may again.

Lastly:

Yet many today in man made religion believe God looks to in the future to dwell in a literal physical temple in the middle east, a temple that obviously does not have Christ as its cornerstone foundation. Are we sure we want to believe in such a temple of God, that does not have His Son as the Chief Cornerstone ? That is playing with fire !

I would remark that there will be a 1,000 year reign of the risen Lord upon a seat of power on earth in the future. At that time, there may be a heavenly kingdom described in the book of Revelation that comes down to earth where the saints will live... but even this is temporary, because God's word is still in process.

One day the whole heaven and Earth will be made new ... and then our Lord will dwell with us in his perfected eternal kingdom. I say that he wants a literal temple that men can see in that kingdom ... then so be it. If he doesn't choose to ... then so be. It is not my place to quibble with what he chooses; so, I won't rule out the possibilities.

I see two sides to this issue ... the invisible spiritual existence and works of God ... and the created visible realms and works of God. It is in the created visible realms where we will know him as he knows us ... in a literal way. If God didn't mean for there to be two aspects to things, then why would he have created literal things in the first place?

Well, how did I do rehearsing your individual points? Perhaps you could reply to me in a like manner.

 

[beloved57]

ps 82

I believe that in this case that the passage is referencing the "spiritual aspect" of the growth of God's people into his kingdom.

I am not asking you to tell me what you believe, you can do that later, but what you understand my points to be in the post.

 

[Ps82]

ps 82



I am not asking you to tell me what you believe, you can do that later, but what you understand my points to be in the post.

Well, summed up: Somehow you seem to be saying that there will be no literal temple again in the future. You only accept that there will be a kingdom of God's people and he (being the cornerstone) will be dwelling invisibly IN THEM. This is what you seem to be saying is the temple of our LORD.

Is my conclusion regarding your ideas correct?

 

[beloved57]

Well, summed up: Somehow you seem to be saying that there will be no literal temple again in the future. You only accept that there will be a kingdom of God's people and he (being the cornerstone) will be dwelling invisibly IN THEM. This is what you seem to be saying is the temple of our LORD.

Is my conclusion regarding your ideas correct?

What am I saying here in this point:

I Cor. 3:16-17

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here in Vs 17 the Temple is preceded by the definite Article hence The one and Only Holy Temple of God is in view !

 

[Ps82]

Well, there are several points within that verse upon which to focus, but I'm guessing you were not discussing the impossibility of there ever being a temple building in the future - such as during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, but rather are just mentioning that the temple of God can be seen right now when they look upon Spirit filled believers. Right?

 

[beloved57]

The Church is the Holy Temple of God !cont

The Church is the Holy Temple of God !cont

Jn 2:19-21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

The carnal jews thought Jesus meant the literal physical temlpe there in Jerusalem, but He was not, but He spake of the Temple of His Body. Now understand something, did He mean by this merely His Physical Body ? No, For Christ meant also by His Body, The Church, for His Body the Church is His Temple,and He said destroy it [by His Death] and in Three Days, He will raise it Up.

Now lets consider some more scripture here.

This scripture Jn 2:21 informs us that Christ had a part in His Bodily Resurrection, and that He has part in the Spiritual Resurrection of all His Dead Spiritually Body Members, So at His Resurrection, He is made a quickening Spirit to His Body 1 Cor 15:45


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This He is to His Body 1 Cor 12:12,27

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

And each part or member that was dead becomes a Lively Stone in Christ who raises up His Temple, God's Temple. 1 Pet 2:5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

A Spiritual House is a Temple;Eph 2:20-22

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This Holy Temple Vs 21 is the Church, the Body of Christ !

This Habitation of God Vs 22 is the Church, The Body of Christ !

The word habitation is the greek word katoikētērion and means:

an abode, a habitation

to dwell, settle

a) metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it

2) to dwell in, inhabit

a) God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present for worshippers

And remember that in principle His Body was Raised up together with Him Eph 2:6

6 And hath [B]raised us up together[/B], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This word raised is the same word Jesus uses in Jn 2:19

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Which also fulfills Jesus words. May it be we are not of those carnal jews of John 2, who could only think of the natural physical temple, and lets us not be of those who limit the Temple of His Body to only His Physical Body !

 

[Ps82]

I had written you a reply saying:

Well, there are several points within that verse upon which to focus, but I'm guessing you were not discussing the impossibility of there ever being a temple building in the future - such as during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, but rather are just mentioning that the temple of God can be seen right now when they look upon Spirit filled believers. Right?

Right? was a question with a yes or no answer... so which is it?

 

[Ps82]

Jn 2:19-21

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

The carnal jews thought Jesus meant the literal physical temlpe there in Jerusalem, but He was not, but He spake of the Temple of His Body. Now understand something, did He mean by this merely His Physical Body ? No, For Christ meant also by His Body, The Church, for His Body the Church is His Temple,and He said destroy it [by His Death] and in Three Days, He will raise it Up.

Now lets consider some more scripture here.

This scripture Jn 2:21 informs us that Christ had a part in His Bodily Resurrection, and that He has part in the Spiritual Resurrection of all His Dead Spiritually Body Members, So at His Resurrection, He is made a quickening Spirit to His Body 1 Cor 15:45


45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This He is to His Body 1 Cor 12:12,27

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

And each part or member that was dead becomes a Lively Stone in Christ who raises up His Temple, God's Temple. 1 Pet 2:5

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

A Spiritual House is a Temple;Eph 2:20-22

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This Holy Temple Vs 21 is the Church, the Body of Christ !

This Habitation of God Vs 22 is the Church, The Body of Christ !

The word habitation is the greek word katoikētērion and means:

an abode, a habitation

to dwell, settle

a) metaph. divine powers, influences, etc., are said to dwell in his soul, to pervade, prompt, govern it

2) to dwell in, inhabit

a) God is said to dwell in the temple, i.e. to be always present for worshippers

And remember that in principle His Body was Raised up together with Him Eph 2:6

6 And hath [B]raised us up together[/B], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This word raised is the same word Jesus uses in Jn 2:19

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Which also fulfills Jesus words. May it be we are not of those carnal jews of John 2, who could only think of the natural physical temple, and lets us not be of those who limit the Temple of His Body to only His Physical Body !

I agree with all of this ... and I assume that your answer was "Yes."

Yet, I believe you limit the ability and will of God by ruling out that there might also be a literal temple when Christ returns.

Do you believe that people will see in the future the Risen Lord returning to earth in the clouds just as they saw him leave?

 

[beloved57]

I agree with all of this

You do, what am I saying point for point ?

 

[Ps82]

You do, what am I saying point for point ?

I see where we agree on a number of things. I certainly believe that scripture reveals truth to us.

I just don't get what you are disputing or what the point is with which you and I are disagreeing.

Are you saying that there will never be any literal building (heavenly or otherwise) that people will see in heaven or on earth?

Please just answer this simple question without any scripture.

 

[beloved57]

I see where we agree on a number of things. I certainly believe that scripture reveals truth to us.

I just don't get what you are disputing or what the point is with which you and I are disagreeing.

Are you saying that there will never be any literal building (heavenly or otherwise) that people will see in heaven or on earth?

Please just answer this simple question without any scripture.

See Post 309 !

 

[beloved57]

I shall build my Church !

I shall build my Church !

Matt 16:18

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

When Christ Promised here He shall or Will build His Church, did He mean by that , He will build the Tabernacle or the Temple of God ?

Look at Prophecy Zech 6:12,13

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.


Now who is this Man name the Branch See Jer 23:5 ?

Does Christ build the Temple of the Lord ? Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


We know Eph 2:19-22 is the Church also, as well as the Holy Temple of God.

Now is it the Holy Temple that the Branch shall build in the Prophecy here Zech 6:12-13

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Church that Jesus builds of Matt 16:18 is the same as the Temple He builds in Zech 6:12-13 !

 

[Ps82]

See Post 309 !

I asked for an answer without scripture. You must not be able to do this... for post 309 is scripture again.

Your post:

I Cor. 3:16-17
What am I saying here in this point:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here in Vs 17 the Temple is preceded by the definite Article hence The one and Only Holy Temple of God is in view !

Well, I understand this point ... and agree it... when you look at a spirit filled believer you see one of the stones of the spiritual temple.
I guess our discussion ends with us agreeing on this point.

That's a good thing.

 

[beloved57]

ps82

I asked for an answer without scripture.

You may as well forget about that.

 

[beloved57]

The Same !

The Same !

We know that the Hope of Israel and the Mystery of Christ are the same and is confirmed by the fact that its the church [Mystery of Christ] Paul was in bonds for and the Hope of Israel Cp Col 4:3

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Acts 28:19-21

19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

21 And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.


Yes, the Mystery of Christ and the Hope of Israel are the very same cause for which Paul suffered bonds for.

The Hope of Israel Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

The Gentiles share in that same Hope of the Gospel Promise to Israel Eph 3:1-6

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Vs 6 here refers back to Isa 45:17, that Salvation Promise is to the Body of Elect Israel.