A problem with open theism (HOF thread)
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justchristian said:
Well the rock doesn't have free will (the doc actually made a good point about that) and so it is much more predictable than any free will agent. Do not take what I am saying too far. I do not deny that God knows everything that is knowable that He desires to know about any given situation or circumstance and this complete knowledge gives Him the ability to know far more about the future than we ever could. The point is though that there are aspects of reality (like the actions of people who's wills are truly free) that will effect future events that cannot be known, by God or by anyone else. They can be predicted and even very much expected by God but that is not the same as knowing absolutely.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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justchristian said:
You have to make a choice here. You can believe this as stated or you can believe that we have a free will. You cannot have both though, the two are mutually exclusive. If the future is known to God (or to anyone) then we cannot be free, period.
If you elect to go with what you've stated then know that you also reject all morality. There can be no right and wrong because no one could have done anything other than what they did do and so it makes no sense to say they chose to do it. Without choice, issues of morality are meaningless.
Resting in Him,
Clete
docrob57 said:
This is sort of a fine hair we are splitting here, isn't it? :chuckle:
What a super important hair it is though!
For clarity's sake I should have said that "this complete knowledge gives God the ability to PREDICT more about the future than we ever could."
I used the word "know" and in common language that would have been okay but for the purposes of this conversation I can see where it might lead to confusion.
Clete said:
Bottom line, and this is why we will never get past the impass. I do not believe that causation and free will are in any way incompatible. I know that you do, so that is impass number 1.
I also do not believe that foreknowledge necessarily implies control. Therefore, impass number 2.
Now, do you believe our differences on this matter disqualify me from salvation?
Freedom - The ability to do or to do otherwise.docrob57 said:
Would you agree with that definition?
You've already agreed that if God knows what will happen that I am no longer able to do otherwise. If the above definition of freedom is correct then how are causation and free will not mutually exclusive?
Foreknowledge has nothing to do with control except that it removes control (i.e. freedom) from me. The foreknowledge is not what is causing the action, it is simply removing my ability to do otherwise and therefore my freedom.
What?! No way! This issue has nothing to do with whether or not one is saved. If you call upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation and believe that God raised Him from the dead, then I don't care what else you believe or how much of it you've gotten wrong, you will be saved, period.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Yes
Because free will choices are caused.
The type of foreknowledge I am talking about is the ability to predict with complete accuracy the free will choices that will be made and their consequences. The whole point of my original post was to suggest that even in a situation of unfettered free will, the assumptions of the OV appear to have problems.
Of course, I am a Calvinist, though not hyper, so I am not a strong free willer to begin with.
Complete agreement here. :thumb:
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philosophizer
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If something is foreknown in an absolute way, how could it not be controlled?docrob57 said:
nope.
philosophizer said:
Going back to the original boiling water example. I come home, my why has a pot of water on the stove at high temperature. My wife has gone to the store (sure, she shouldnt leave a pot on the stove, but after all, this is just a hypothetical
) . I go check my e-mail and go to the bathroom. Not at the same time. Ten minutes later, I hear my wife come in the front door. I know that the water is boiling, even though I had no control over it whatsoever.
Well doc, if nothing else you are almost certainly the most intellectually honest Calvinist I have ever come across.
I have one more question based on your last post. (post 549)
Let's assume you're right and everything has a cause, which I have not disputed actually. Do you also insist on believing in causality where any one set of causes can only have one possible outcome?
I suppose that this is in effect what I believe to be the case…
That for any circumstance, where a person with a free will is involved, there is more than one possible outcome. That if you took our hypothetical set of twins and set them both in the exact same set of circumstances with precisely the same "causes" in place that one may still do while the other does otherwise.
How this can be, I do not know, nor do I have any idea how to find out aside from asking God when we get there. All I do know is that if this is not so then love and all other such concepts lose their meaning, which I find totally unacceptable.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I have one more question based on your last post. (post 549)
Let's assume you're right and everything has a cause, which I have not disputed actually. Do you also insist on believing in causality where any one set of causes can only have one possible outcome?
I suppose that this is in effect what I believe to be the case…
That for any circumstance, where a person with a free will is involved, there is more than one possible outcome. That if you took our hypothetical set of twins and set them both in the exact same set of circumstances with precisely the same "causes" in place that one may still do while the other does otherwise.
How this can be, I do not know, nor do I have any idea how to find out aside from asking God when we get there. All I do know is that if this is not so then love and all other such concepts lose their meaning, which I find totally unacceptable.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
Yes, that would be my view of causality, but, again given chaos theory, we know that small variations in initial conditions can lead to wildly different outcomes, so I would expect human behavior to look more random than not.
I would argue that if the identical twins do different things, then the causes are not identical.
I don't agree that any of this has anything to do with love, etc., however, I guess we will find all this out in the next life, as you suggest.
I have to ask, how are Calvinists usually intellectually dishonest, and how do I difer from them?
How is this example even remotley Calvinistic?docrob57 said:Going back to the original boiling water example. I come home, my why has a pot of water on the stove at high temperature. My wife has gone to the store (sure, she shouldnt leave a pot on the stove, but after all, this is just a hypothetical
If it were a Calvinistic example it would read something like this....
I ordained long ago that I come home at a specific time, I have ordanied that my wife has a pot of water on the stove at high temperature. I ordained that my wife has gone to the store (sure, she shouldnt leave a pot on the stove, but after all, I ordained her to do as much
) . I go check my e-mail and go to the bathroom just as I have predestined. Ten minutes later (according to foreordination), I hear my wife come in the front door. I know that the water is boiling, because I have complete control over every aspect of every situation.Knight said:How is this example even remotley Calvinistic?
If it were a Calvinistic example it would read something like this....
I ordained long ago that I come home at a specific time, I have ordanied that my wife has a pot of water on the stove at high temperature. I ordained that my wife has gone to the store (sure, she shouldnt leave a pot on the stove, but after all, I ordained her to do as much
Let me be clear, I am a political scientist by training, not a theologian, so I may be off on my terminology. From what I understand, you are describing "hyper Calvinism," and I do not ascribe to that. I do think that God earmarks some for salvation and some not. This is the only way I can understand how some people are predisposed to believe and some are not. I may be wrong, I guess it just helps me to understand to think of things that way.
Very well. Thank you for a direct answer.docrob57 said:
Well, like godrulz said (I think in this thread), "Logic seems lost on Closed Theists."
This is particularly true for most all Calvinists that I have come across. They are WAY more interested in finding a way of coming to the conclusion that agrees with their theology than they are in going where the evidence takes them. It is all but impossible to get straight answers to some of the very questions I have asked on this thread. Like the one I asked Freak (who is Calvinistic if not a full blown Calvinist) about whether or not God can do the logically absurd. I have a better chance of winning the lottery (which I do not play) than I have of getting a straight "yes" or "no" out of him (unless he reads this, then I'm sure to get one). The only other Calvinist (Calvinistic person) who was really being intellectually honest if not also a bit logically convoluted was Jim Hilston but he doesn't post here any longer, which is a pity.
At any rate, you ask real questions, respond to the actual points being made in answer to those questions and directly answer any question posed to you. I don't know any other Calvinist who does that! I wish we could find more and get them on this web site! Although, I dare say that they wouldn't stay Calvinists very long if they maintained their emotional distance and intellectual objectivity, but I suppose I'm biased on that point.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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philosophizer
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Does anyone necessarily have to be "predisposed"?
philosophizer said:
Good question, and I really don't know. My experience seems to say "yes," and I think there is ample Biblical evidence for it, though I know you can argue Biblically for the other side as well.
But the question is, why does the Bible make sense to you and I but not to others? Well, there is the presense of the Holy Spirit, and that came about through faith. But why do we have faith and others do not? Why would anyone not want to believe?
These are questions which point me in the direction of predisposition/predestination. But I certainly am not certain about the answers.
Well...docrob57 said:
Most on this thread like Robin, Freak and Jeremiah claim that God doesn't ordain the future but has "seen" the future. This view is NOT Calvinistic even though both Robin and Freak championed Calvinism earlier in the thread :kookoo:.
In Calvinism, God ordains the future in every detail. In Calvinism It isn't that God necessarily "sees" the future but plans it out down to every movement of every molecule for all of time. Calvinism rejects the notion of freewill yet Arminianism embraces freewill.
In light of this... do you see yourself as more of a Calvinist (God ordains everything) or more of an Arminian in that God has "seen" everything (including all of the future).
Open view theism is neither of the above.
Knight said:Well...
Most on this thread like Robin, Freak and Jeremiah claim that God doesn't ordain the future but has "seen" the future. This view is NOT Calvinistic even though both Robin and Freak championed Calvinism earlier in the thread :kookoo:.
In Calvinism, God ordains the future in every detail. In Calvinism It isn't that God necessarily "sees" the future but plans it out down to every movement of every molecule for all of time. Calvinism rejects the notion of freewill yet Arminianism embraces freewill.
In light of this... do you see yourself as more of a Calvinist (God ordains everything) or more of an Arminian in that God has "seen" everything (including all of the future).
Open view theism is neither of the above.
I certainly don't agree that God ordains the future in every detail, but I am not sure that Calvin argued that either. Presented with those choices I guess I would be more Arminian. Except that I do believe in predestination as it relates to salvation. Perhaps I am a theological mutt.
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