A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Clete]

So...if God told you something was going to happen ! hour from now, lets say...a murder...would you try to stop the murder?

I really suspect that you aren't getting the point. This question doesn't address the issue. The only way I could answer it and remain on topic would be to say that I could only try to stop the murder if God didn't already KNOW for a fact that I would not because if God did know that I would not try then I could not do otherwise or else God could not have known that I wouldn't.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Well, as I said early on, I certainly do not deny that something supernatural is involved with our will.

Is this your way of saying that there may indeed be something more than causalities involved in determining our actions?

 

[Clete]

Neither free will, self determination or supernatural intervention are counterarguments to anything I was talking about. For those raising supernatural intervention, it would appear that they are placed in the uneasy position of arguing that God cannot know the outcome of His intervention.

doc,

Could you respond to this specific point...

Intervention is itself caused by something, right? And so even the intervention is part of the original causal chain and no real intervention has taken place. The causal chain of events is completely in tact, it just looks like it has been interupted by divine intervention. The only way that this might not be the case is if God is not subject to causality. And if He is not subject to causality and we are made in His image, why do you insist that we must be?
​

Thanks.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[logos_x]

I really suspect that you aren't getting the point. This question doesn't address the issue. The only way I could answer it and remain on topic would be to say that I could only try to stop the murder if God didn't already KNOW for a fact that I would not because if God did know that I would not try then I could do otherwise or else God could not have known that I wouldn't.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hmmm.
Then, the question I responded to, about someone being told by God that they would be in an accident and their legs broken..and my response that this outcome could be avoided because of being told by God...is somehow valid to the argument, while the question about being told about a murder in advance, isn't valid to the argument?

No..I don't get it.

 

[docrob57]

doc,

Could you respond to this specific point...

Intervention is itself caused by something, right? And so even the intervention is part of the original causal chain and no real intervention has taken place. The causal chain of events is completely in tact, it just looks like it has been interupted by divine intervention. The only way that this might not be the case is if God is not subject to causality. And if He is not subject to causality and we are made in His image, why do you insist that we must be?
​

Thanks.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I am uncomfortable with the idea that "God is subject to causality." I would say that He does things for a reason, and, therefore, something causes His action. As to your original point, I would agree.

 

[Clete]

Hmmm.
Then, the question I responded to, about someone being told by God that they would be in an accident and their legs broken..and my response that this outcome could be avoided because of being told by God...is somehow valid to the argument, while the question about being told about a murder in advance, isn't valid to the argument?

No..I don't get it.

Huh?

I think we are somehow talking past one another.

Let's just break the question down to something more generic.

If God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, can that event be avoided; is it possible that the event won't happen?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I am uncomfortable with the idea that "God is subject to causality."

Me too!

I would say that He does things for a reason, and, therefore, something causes His action.

Like His will, perhaps?

As to your original point, I would agree.

Cool! I'm not sure which point you're reffering too exactly, but I always like it when people agree with me! :thumb:

 

[docrob57]

Me too!


Like His will, perhaps?


Cool! I'm not sure which point you're reffering too exactly, but I always like it when people agree with me! :thumb:

I suspect we agree on virtually everything, including how we come to be saved. The rest is relative fluff in my opinion.

Anyway, as Ronald Reagan said "there you go again." Substitutiong "will" for "causation." You may have a point, but, if so, clearly I don't get it.

 

[logos_x]

Huh?

I think we are somehow talking past one another.

Let's just break the question down to something more generic.

If God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, can that event be avoided; is it possible that the event won't happen?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Depends on who or what is going to cause it to happen.

Is God going to do the thing in question? If not things can change the outcome.
God's knowledge could be used to change the outcome.

Even if God intends something to occur in the future, He could change His mind and do something else...or do it differently.

So, yes, so long as God has a say in it, it can be avoided.
The only thing that cannot be avoided is God's sovriegn will. That will prevail.

 

[docrob57]

Huh?

I think we are somehow talking past one another.

Let's just break the question down to something more generic.

If God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, can that event be avoided; is it possible that the event won't happen?

Resting in Him,
Clete

No, if God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, then it is not possible that the event won't happen.

 

[logos_x]

No, if God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, then it is not possible that the event won't happen.

Not necessarily.

 

[Clete]

Depends on who or what is going to cause it to happen.

Is God going to do the thing in question? If not things can change the outcome.
God's knowledge could be used to change the outcome.

Even if God intends something to occur in the future, He could change His mind and do something else...or do it differently.

So, yes, so long as God has a say in it, it can be avoided.
The only thing that cannot be avoided is God's sovriegn will. That will prevail.

Okay, I agree with you that when God says something about the future that it may yet still not happen. What I'm getting at, however, is that since this is so it cannot be said that God knows the future exhaustively. I'm not saying that He's necessarily surprised by what happens because He can have a lot of really good reason to expect certain things to occur but expectation is not knoweldge. Would you agree with this?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

No, if God knows absolutely that some specific event in the future will happen, then it is not possible that the event won't happen.

Exactly!

Logos,

It is indeed a logical necessity. You would have to redefine the word "knowledge" to come to any other logical conclusion.

This has been my point from the beginning.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[logos_x]

Okay, I agree with you that when God says something about the future that it may yet still not happen. What I'm getting at, however, is that since this is so it cannot be said that God knows the future exhaustively. I'm not saying that He's necessarily surprised by what happens because He can have a lot of really good reason to expect certain things to occur but expectation is not knoweldge. Would you agree with this?

Resting in Him,
Clete

So your argument is between "high confidence" and "knowledge"?
Ok...I can go along with that.

 

[Clete]

So your argument is between "high confidence" and "knowledge"?
Ok...I can go along with that.

YES! Exactly!

:idea: :idea: :idea:

:BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO:

 

[logos_x]

:thumb:

 

[justchristian]

I'm not saying that He's necessarily surprised by what happens because He can have a lot of really good reason to expect certain things to occur but expectation is not knoweldge. Would you agree with this?

But we say that "I know when I drop a rock it will hit the ground." We dont really know it will hit the ground but we expect it to. Are you saying it is the same with God? The reason we dont know the rock will hit the ground is becuse the situation may change outside our knowledge, the laws of the unverse may change, an animal may run between the rock and the ground, all these variables we cannot see affect our knowledge to expectation. But God isnt ignorant of these varibles. He has an infinite knowledge of his creation. Why should a an infinite God be unable to calculate the future based on the present if he has a complete understanding of all things that will affect the future?

 

[docrob57]

But we say that "I know when I drop a rock it will hit the ground." We dont really know it will hit the ground but we expect it to. Are you saying it is the same with God? The reason we dont know the rock will hit the ground is becuse the situation may change outside our knowledge, the laws of the unverse may change, an animal may run between the rock and the ground, all these variables we cannot see affect our knowledge to expectation. But God isnt ignorant of these varibles. He has an infinite knowledge of his creation. Why should a an infinite God be unable to calculate the future based on the present if he has a complete understanding of all things that will affect the future?

What about the rock's free will?

(sorry)

 

[justchristian]

why sorry? assuming the rock has free will and we are God? I guess you have to decide whether our created free will is free from knowledge and control of it or just control of it. Free will isnt some random event generator. There is a reason behind every choice we make just as there is a reason behind everything God does. Whether God is prevy to this reason is the question I guess.

 

[Turbo]

Whether God is prevy to this reason is the question I guess.

Could God have created us so that we were somewhat unpredictable, even to Him? Could God have done that if He had wanted to? (whether or not He actually did.) Or is that beyond God's ability?