A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[Jeremiah85]

The biblical statement that God made was God knows because He will do it. I want to quote the last verse of the Isaiah passage Isa 46:9-11 “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

God declares the end from the beginning, because He will bring to pass His eternal purpose.

All this passage is saying is that God keeps His Word. Nowhere does it say that God limits His knowledge, which is the question that I was asking you. I am asking you to prove that God willingly limits His knowledge. I do not deny that God will bring His will to pass.

 

[Agape4Robin]

All this passage is saying is that God keeps His Word. Nowhere does it say that God limits His knowledge, which is the question that I was asking you. I am asking you to prove that God willingly limits His knowledge. I do not deny that God will bring His will to pass.

Better said than me...... :BRAVO:

 

[drbrumley]

Because we do not believe in predestination. We do not believe that God makes our choices for us. We simply believe that God knows what choice that we will make, not that God will predestine what choice that we will make. We are not Calvinist as you imply.

So you SAY you don't believe in predestination. You are saying basically we cannot make a choice that is not contained with God's perfect foreknowledge. I think that is pretty evident.

So please explain then how we as humans can make any other choice other than what God has already foreknown AND by implication is now predetermined? You can't have it both ways. Either we have freewill or we we think we have freewill, but since God already knows our choice, its not freewill at all but has been predetermined.

 

[godrulz]

Because we do not believe in predestination. We do not believe that God makes our choices for us. We simply believe that God knows what choice that we will make, not that God will predestine what choice that we will make. We are not Calvinist as you imply.

You must be in the Arminian 'simple foreknowledge' camp. Nice theory, but problematic and unexplainable.

 

[godrulz]

Where does the Bible say that God limits His foreknowledge to His own plans?

Hezekiah 6:66

Since the Bible is not a systematic theology book, it leaves some things in tension. We must speculate with godly philosophy and logic at times (e.g. exact nature of time, eternity, creation).

 

[godrulz]

The biblical statement that God made was God knows because He will do it. I want to quote the last verse of the Isaiah passage Isa 46:9-11 “Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.”

God declares the end from the beginning, because He will bring to pass His eternal purpose.

Exactly. This 'proof text' is about God's ability, not His foreknowledge.

 

[Jeremiah85]

So you SAY you don't believe in predestination. You are saying basically we cannot make a choice that is not contained with God's perfect foreknowledge. I think that is pretty evident.

I would still like to see a verse that proves that God limits is knowledge of the future. You are still ignoring several of my previous posts and if you continue, this will prevent our having a meaningful debate.

So please explain then how we as humans can make any other choice other than what God has already foreknown AND by implication is now predetermined? You can't have it both ways. Either we have freewill or we we think we have freewill, but since God already knows our choice, its not freewill at all but has been predetermined.Just because God already knows that choice we will make does not mean that He predestined us to make it. This sentence is the crux of our disagreement. God does not determine what choice that we make, He simply knows what choice we will make.

 

[godrulz]

Yet you say that He chooses not to know our choices? Are we not a part of His plan?

It is not that He choses to not know something He could know. It is a logical issue that an omniscient being cannot know a future free will contingency except as a possibility/probability. The choice was to create other free moral agents. Freedom limited exhaustive foreknowledge. You do not see this, but if you were conversant with biblical philosophy and modal logic, you would see the validity of this observation.

 

[godrulz]

All this passage is saying is that God keeps His Word. Nowhere does it say that God limits His knowledge, which is the question that I was asking you. I am asking you to prove that God willingly limits His knowledge. I do not deny that God will bring His will to pass.

Creating free moral agents with contingencies inherently limits the nature of knowledge. This is a logical, philosophical argument based on biblical priniciples. Quit looking for one proof text.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Hezekiah 6:66

Since the Bible is not a systematic theology book, it leaves some things in tension. We must speculate with godly philosophy and logic at times (e.g. exact nature of time, eternity, creation).

I can't seem to find Hezekiah in my Bible, perhap you could give me a hand?

 

[godrulz]

So you SAY you don't believe in predestination. You are saying basically we cannot make a choice that is not contained with God's perfect foreknowledge. I think that is pretty evident.

So please explain then how we as humans can make any other choice other than what God has already foreknown AND by implication is now predetermined? You can't have it both ways. Either we have freewill or we we think we have freewill, but since God already knows our choice, its not freewill at all but has been predetermined.

Incompatibilism vs compatibilism...(area of theology relating to a similar debate).

I am an incompatibilist (free will is not compatible with exhaustive predestination/determinism).


Compatibilists must redefine free will (not libertarian free will).

 

[Jeremiah85]

Or are you people argueing from a different Bible

 

[godrulz]

I would still like to see a verse that proves that God limits is knowledge of the future. You are still ignoring several of my previous posts and if you continue, this will prevent our having a meaningful debate.

So please explain then how we as humans can make any other choice other than what God has already foreknown AND by implication is now predetermined? You can't have it both ways. Either we have freewill or we we think we have freewill, but since God already knows our choice, its not freewill at all but has been predetermined.Just because God already knows that choice we will make does not mean that He predestined us to make it. This sentence is the crux of our disagreement. God does not determine what choice that we make, He simply knows what choice we will make.

God believes truth. How (what is the mechanism) does He have simple foreknowledge? If it is foreknown, it is not possible for us to chose between alternatives. Your view assumes the future is fixed, certain, and knowable. This is true about the past and present, but the future is a different animal since it is not yet (it is only potential).

 

[godrulz]

I can't seem to find Hezekiah in my Bible, perhap you could give me a hand?

It is a joke. The book of Hezekiah does not exist. Some of our arguments are extrabiblical, but that does not mean they are always contrabiblical. Many theological concepts we believe to be true cannot be reduced to one proof text.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Incompatibilism vs compatibilism...(area of theology relating to a similar debate).

I am an incompatibilist (free will is not compatible with exhaustive predestination/determinism).


Compatibilists must redefine free will (not libertarian free will).

I do not believe in predestination or determininism therefore your argument is irelevant. I do not appreciate having words put in my mouth and it undermines your credibility to do so.

 

[Agape4Robin]

It is not that He choses to not know something He could know. It is a logical issue that an omniscient being cannot know a future free will contingency except as a possibility/probability. The choice was to create other free moral agents. Freedom limited exhaustive foreknowledge. You do not see this, but if you were conversant with biblical philosophy and modal logic, you would see the validity of this observation.

So, if I were more like you?

 

[Agape4Robin]

It is a joke. The book of Hezekiah does not exist. Some of our arguments are extrabiblical, but that does not mean they are always contrabiblical. Many theological concepts we believe to be true cannot be reduced to one proof text.

Yeah, like "open theism".

 

[godrulz]

Or are you people argueing from a different Bible

The Bible must be correctly translated and interpreted. Translation is not usually an issue in our debate. The problem is that closed view theists must make some passages figurative (when they should be literal) to retain their preconceived theology. Open theists take God's self-revelation at face value and change wrong tradition without denying the essentials of the faith.


http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=506

(The Open view affirms classic truths, but rightly defines and understands them)

 

[godrulz]

I do not believe in predestination or determininism therefore your argument is irelevant. I do not appreciate having words put in my mouth and it undermines your credibility to do so.

I was making a general academic comment. Why are you applying it to yourself and becoming personally defensive? Who lacks credibility?

 

[godrulz]

So, if I were more like you?

No. I think you underestimate the academic issues and ongoing debate relating to our discussion.