A problem with open theism (HOF thread)

[godrulz]

To all Open Theists....beware of what God has said.


Psalm 73:9-19, "They have set their mouth against the heavens, And their tongue parades through the earth.
10) Therefore his people return to this place, And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11) They say, ‘How does God know? And is there knowledge with the Most High?’ 12) Behold, these are the wicked; And always at ease, they have increased in wealth…


18) Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.
19) How they are destroyed in a moment! They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!"

Nice misuse of Scripture totally out of context without application to those who have different theological nuances. The context is talking about the righteous vs the wicked, not those who see the future as partially open and partially settled (or Calvinism vs Arminianism while affirming the essentials of the faith).

Open Theists affirm the absolute omniscience of God while recognizing the nature of the future as an element of openness. It is the openness of creation, not the openness of God.

The wicked were denying that God knew their actions and hearts. This is present and past knowledge that God knows exhaustively. You cannot extrapolate this to having any reference to a denial of Augustinian theology about exhaustive knowledge of future free will contingencies. There is not legit application from this text in context.

 

[godrulz]

We see here an anthropomorphic expression from God about Israel. God speaks to Israel as a husband speaks to his wife. John Frame sums it up beautifully:

"In Jeremiah 3, God interacts with Israel as a husband with his unfaithful wife....this passage deals with God's relation to Israel in history, not his eternal decrees and eternal foreknowledge. The thrust of the passage is that recent history should have motivated the repentance of Israel and Judah, but in fact they continued their spiritual adultery. As their husband, God had hoped (this hope being an expression of his preceptive will) for something better." - John Frame (Christian apologist)

For clarification, the term Mr. Frame used "preceptive will" is a theological term denoting the will of God that is contrasted with His decretive will. In God's decretive will, God ordains certain things to occur and they will occur. In God's preceptive will, God allows certain things to occur (like the fall, sin, rebellion, sickness, etc.) that are not in His decretive will. Another way to look at it is to say that it is God's "permissive" will; that is, He permits sinful things to occur even though sin is contrary to God's perfect will.
Nevertheless, this passage demonstrates the manner in which God relates to His people in human terms. Therefore, we should expect human type statements.






Here is a perfect example of anthropomorphism, of where God speaks in human terms. God expects one thing and gets another. Is this an example of God being surprised and learning? No it is not. :nono:
First of all, it is a parable in the form of a song. A parable is meant to illustrate a point not expound doctrine and a song takes much liberty with its words and phrases. Therefore, the poetic license taken in this song need not be construed as God actually being surprised, especially when we realize that God speaks to us in reference to our time frame and uses human emotions and conditions.
We know that from all eternity, God has known all things (1 John 3:20). He is not surprised by anything. So, what we have here is a song, using poetic license, to convey meaning.


You go argue with Him.....I know how to study the bible and use the principles of hermeneutics as it applies to scripture.

There are figurative passages in Scripture, but to take a face value meaning and make it figurative to retain a preconceived theology is disingenuous.

 

[godrulz]

You are not that much older than me, and I have been a christian about 28 years.

One-up-manship. Humble apologies. :king:

Do you have red hair? You are feisty like my cat.

 

[Agape4Robin]

There are figurative passages in Scripture, but to take a face value meaning and make it figurative to retain a preconceived theology is disingenuous.

Because you say so? :think:

Prove me wrong then....tell me how the Jeremiah 3 passage is NOT an anthromorphic expression.

Tell me why Isaiah 5 is NOT, as I said, a parable? Prove that God is literally speaking to Israel.

 

[Agape4Robin]

One-up-manship. Humble apologies. :king:

Do you have red hair? You are feisty like my cat.

I have red/blonde hair.......so? :think:

 

[godrulz]

Because you say so? :think:

Prove me wrong then....tell me how the Jeremiah 3 passage is NOT an anthromorphic expression.

Tell me why Isaiah 5 is NOT, as I said, a parable? Prove that God is literally speaking to Israel.

I did not read those passages carefully. I was referring to other passages where God changes His mind and does not know some things until choices are made (repent or not).

Is. 5 is a song about the vineyard (parable). Is. 5:7 "The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the house of Israel." The context provides the interpretation. A parable is usually about one central truth.

Jer. 3 is about unfaithful Israel. The literary device does not mean it does not portray literal or spiritual truth.

Perhaps you should read a good commentary.

 

[Jeremiah85]

drbrumley, I am beginning to conclude that you are ignoring another one of my posts. Are you conceding the point then? No, offense but I see you trying to put God into a little Box that you can understand. Because you do not understand how perfect foreknowledge and freewill can coexist, you refuse to accept that they do. God is God whether you understand Him or not. Both Robin and I have answered the Isaiah passage and you have ignored me and insulted her (granted, she has insulted you too) But the fact remains that you canot ignore valid posts and continue to claim victory.

 

[Agape4Robin]

drbrumley, I am beginning to conclude that you are ignoring another one of my posts. Are you conceding the point then? No, offense but I see you trying to put God into a little Box that you can understand. Because you do not understand how perfect foreknowledge and freewill can coexist, you refuse to accept that they do. God is God whether you understand Him or not. Both Robin and I have answered the Isaiah passage and you have ignored me and insulted her (granted, she has insulted you too) But the fact remains that you canot ignore valid posts and continue to claim victory.

May I respectfully ask how I have insulted Doc?

 

[godrulz]

I have red/blonde hair.......so? :think:

At least you have hair. Mine is receeding. Red heads have a reputation for being feisty. You seem sassy. I appreciate you wanting to defend 'orthodoxy', but I believe the classic view is not without fault. Most theologians who hold the classic view have moved away from 'strong' immutability, for example. Open Theism was on the cutting edge to return to a biblical understanding of God.

 

[Jeremiah85]

May I respectfully ask how I have insulted Doc?

Okay, sorry , maybe antagonized is a better term.

 

[Freak]

Open Theism affirms God's perfection and limitless knowledge. The verses you quote affirm that God knows the past and present exhaustively. It does not have to mean He knows the future as certain if it is only possible before it comes into existence.

What parts of the future does God know? Does He know what is to occur as recorded in the book of Revelation (which is speaking of a future event)?

 

[Agape4Robin]

I did not read those passages carefully. I was referring to other passages where God changes His mind and does not know some things until choices are made (repent or not).

Is. 5 is a song about the vineyard (parable). Is. 5:7 "The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the house of Israel." The context provides the interpretation. A parable is usually about one central truth.

Jer. 3 is about unfaithful Israel. The literary device does not mean it does not portray literal or spiritual truth.

Perhaps you should read a good commentary.

The whole Bible is a literary device. And I have read a good commentary. Whose should I read? Mr. Boyd's?

 

[Agape4Robin]

Okay, sorry , maybe antagonized is a better term.

Let me apologize....I do tend to be passionate about the God of the Bible....

 

[Agape4Robin]

At least you have hair. Mine is receeding. Red heads have a reputation for being feisty. You seem sassy. I appreciate you wanting to defend 'orthodoxy', but I believe the classic view is not without fault. Most theologians who hold the classic view have moved away from 'strong' immutability, for example. Open Theism was on the cutting edge to return to a biblical understanding of God.

Feisty? Me? :chuckle:
I would much rather err on the side of orthodoxy, rather than jump on a band wagon.

 

[Jeremiah85]

Let me apologize....I do tend to be passionate about the God of the Bible....

So am I. After all I am sill in this thread aren't I :chuckle: But I have found that pushing people's buttons doesn't tend to help convince them of the truth and makes it easier for them to try to sling mud.

 

[Agape4Robin]

So am I. After all I am sill in this thread aren't I :chuckle: But I have found that pushing people's buttons doesn't tend to help convince them of the truth and makes it easier for them to try to sling mud.

I agree and I will try to be more polite. :thumb:

 

[Jeremiah85]

I agree and I will try to be more polite. :thumb:

That's all I ask. Oh, it's nice to see that somebody is reading my posts... I was starting to wonder. :think:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Robin... sweet avatar! I love it.

I am out most of the day which means I will miss about 9,000 posts on this thread today.

I will try to post later tonight! Robin, Jeremiah, DocRob, Freak I realize we have major disagreements on this topic but I really do love fellowshipping with all of you. :up:

 

[Agape4Robin]

That's all I ask. Oh, it's nice to see that somebody is reading my posts... I was starting to wonder. :think:

I would answer you more often, but I tend to agree with your points. :BRAVO:

Looks like we are on the same team! :thumb:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Robin... sweet avatar! I love it.

I am out most of the day which means I will miss about 9,000 posts on this thread today.

I will try to post later tonight! Robin, Jeremiah, DocRob, Freak I realize we have major disagreements on this topic but I really do love fellowshipping with all of you. :up:

Thanks, Knight....I like it too! :banana:

I do love to fellowship here as well. I think we all need to think and push ourselves and each other toward a better understanding. I look forward to hearing from you! :thumb: