You must be saved to believe the Gospel !

[Lon]

Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again or else he would not enter into heaven, even though Jesus knew Nicodemus was already one of the elect.

John 3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Okay, take the same argument then and follow it to "You must be born again before you are born again." It is said poorly. Theology needs careful sword work.

As far as your reasoning, I may agree: Nobody can 'born nor born-again themselves.' Nicodemus knew that he couldn't do this by himself when he makes the suggestion. Jesus' reply shows that it is God the Spirit that makes people who are born-again Spiritually, born of God.

Still today, there are those in our churches and outside of them, that are following God in the flesh, without Spirit.

 

[beloved57]

John 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Acts 28:28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

All of Gods Elect/Sheep, or every Member of His Body the Church will hear [spiritually] the Gospel, and at an scheduled time shall believe it. Acts 13:48. This is ensured by Gods immutable , predetermined counsel, set before the foundation of the world. This is inclusive of their being born again spiritually so that they hear spiritually !

 

[JudgeRightly]

John 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Acts 28:28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

These two verses are NOT referring to the same group of people. Forcing them to only results in confusion.

All of Gods Elect/Sheep, or every Member of His Body the Church will hear [spiritually] the Gospel, and at an scheduled time shall believe it. Acts 13:48. This is ensured by Gods immutable , predetermined counsel, set before the foundation of the world. This is inclusive of their being born again spiritually so that they hear spiritually !

False.

 

[marke]

John 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Acts 28:28

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

All of Gods Elect/Sheep, or every Member of His Body the Church will hear [spiritually] the Gospel, and at an scheduled time shall believe it. Acts 13:48. This is ensured by Gods immutable , predetermined counsel, set before the foundation of the world. This is inclusive of their being born again spiritually so that they hear spiritually !

God did not create humans to burn in hell at His pleasure, except for proud Calvinists who wrongly imagine God loves them and nobody else.

 

[beloved57]

These two verses are NOT referring to the same group of people. Forcing them to only results in confusion.



False.

Yes they are, the Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ, jew and gentile !

 

[marke]

Yes they are, the Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ, jew and gentile !

They are not all elect among those you think they are elect.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

 

[Idolater]

They are not all elect among those you think they are elect.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Note the difference between Matthew 7:22 ("prophesied", "cast out devils", and "many wonderful works") and Matthew 18:20 ("gathered together"). All are said to be done in His name. But only gathering together in His name, comes with the promise, "There am I in the midst of them".

And smaller point: Note that Mt7:22 does not say, "Have we not gathered together in thy name?"

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes they are, the Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ, jew and gentile !

No, they're not.

The first has Jesus talking about unbelieving Israel (not individual Israelites, but the unbelieving portion of the nation of Israel).

The second is talking about the Gentiles.

See, two different groups.

 

[beloved57]

They are not all elect among those you think they are elect.

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

They're the same, the Sheep !

 

[Lon]

Yes they are, the Elect, the Church, the Body of Christ, jew and gentile !

He was saying one referred to Jews, the second verse to gentiles. Covenant theologians tend to see gentiles as 'grafted in.' Dispensationalists tend to see separations. It is part and parcel the difference. You both probably knew that, but it is the reason here for the disagreement: one on difference, the other on what's the same.

 

[marke]

They're the same, the Sheep !

When God returns to judge His people He will separate the true believers (the sheep) from the false believers ( the goats.)

Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

 

[JudgeRightly]

They're the same, the Sheep !

Stomping your foot and demanding that it is so won't make it so.

They are not the same. One is referring to a part of Israel, the other is referring to gentiles.

 

[beloved57]

Stomping your foot and demanding that it is so won't make it so.

They are not the same. One is referring to a part of Israel, the other is referring to gentiles.

Im just stating the fact of scripture.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Im just stating the fact of scripture.

What you are stating is not a fact.

What you're stating is an interpretation of scripture that does damage TO scripture.

 

[beloved57]

What you are stating is not a fact.

What you're stating is an interpretation of scripture that does damage TO scripture.

Sure it is, just because you dont see it makes no difference !

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sure it is, just because you dont see it makes no difference !

I can clearly see the argument you're trying to make.

And I'm telling you, you're wrong, because your position does damage to the rest of scripture.

 

[beloved57]

I can clearly see the argument you're trying to make.

And I'm telling you, you're wrong, because your position does damage to the rest of scripture.

What is it then ?

 

[JudgeRightly]

What is it then ?

That Israel and the Body of Christ are the same thing.

They're not.

 

[Bright Raven]

That Israel and the Body of Christ are the same thing.

They're not.

 

[beloved57]

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This verse indicates that one is saved first, past tense, then called with an holy calling. God would not call an unholy person with an holy calling, which calling would include the Gospel.