I was covering 2, poetic justice.
Yes. This is partly what makes this conversation so confusing and so long lasting between the different people on TOL. "Deserve," as I have pointed out, means a whole lot of different things depending on the context, and there is a tendency to get confused about the meaning of the word.
I didn't make the claim that a woman who goes to a frat party and leaves her drink unattended deserves rape in the sense of poetic justice. All that I mean is that she reasonably should have seen it as a possibility and taken steps to avoid it (e.g., by refusing to go to frat parties, by making sure she watches her drink like a hawk at all times and by traveling in packs).
Lest we become further confused over terms, we may distinguish the three senses of deserve as follows:
Sense 1: "it was owed to him in justice; it was something which was rightly due to him, and all of the circumstances wherein he received it were right and fair. He got the appropriate thing at the appropriate time from the appropriate person for the appropriate reasons, etc."
The way that sense 1 is colloquially expressed: "Justice was done."
Sense 2: "This was the sort of thing that this person deserved given that he or she is such and such a kind of person and has done such and such a kind of thing, regardless of whether the circumstances in which he or she received it were right, fair and just."
The way in which sense 2 is colloquially expressed: "Serves her right: she had it coming!"
You keep insisting on the "poetic" part, but I don't think that this is really the necessary or important part. All that is necessary is that we are able to see the thing done as in some sense like a punishment or reward for the person's good or bad deeds.
If a serial rapist gets torn apart by a pack of wolves, there is no "irony" in this, but nobody would dispute that in some sense he "deserved" such a fate for his crimes.
Sense 3: "This is the sort of thing which this person reasonably should have foreseen as a result of his course of action, and it is foolish of him to have expected a different result."
The way in which sense 3 is colloquially expressed: "She should have known better."
So let us briefly summarized:
Sense 1: Justice was done.
Sense 2: Serves her right.
Sense 3: She should have known better.
In the case of the unobservant party goer, I'm not saying 1 or 2. I'm simply saying: "She should have known better."
I prefer that example over rape, and it's also on topic. :idunno:
I'm afraid I don't know the details of the case.
And it was supposed to illustrate the hole in your logic.
Again, I don't know the details of the case, but I will say this:
Don't make your waiter angry. He might spit in your food. Just saying.
It's really not. There's a broad sense in which we can say that the adulteress "deserved" what happened to her that night, insofar as she was intent on evil doing, and she herself suffered evil doing.
How about she's planning to arrange for another woman to be raped, but in spiking the drink of her victim she accidentally drinks the one she meant for her prey? If the event was sold out and she got what she was planning, it would be a little more poetic, surely.
It still isn't justice to rape a rapist. But at least you get some irony there.
That works too, and I think you see my point. It's not just for the woman in question to be raped. But there is a strong sense in which "she had it coming" or "deserved" what happened.
Self protection doesn't solve rape, it just means someone else will be the weaker prey. That said, we all have the right to defend ourselves and be safe.
And you are foolish if you don't, and, to that extent, shame on you if you don't.
That's all I'm saying. :idunno:
Foolishness isn't a crime. Rape is. Big difference.
That's just it. I'm not saying that the rape victim is a criminal. I'm simply saying that, depending upon the circumstances, she may have acted foolishly.
Bad things happen to foolish people. :idunno:
I would strongly advise that someone clean that neighborhood up. :up:
I completely agree. But unless and until then, lay off the perfume. You don't? Then shame on
you. :idunno: