Why is Bob proud about being homophobic?
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karstkid
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A response to Jefferson.
quote:
Originally posted by karstkid
Ultradispensationalism has numerous aberrant beliefs.
Such as?
No practice of water baptism which is aberrant and cultic. Two. Only Paul’s epistles apply to us today. Three. One does not have to obey what Jesus said because it applies only to Jews.
quote:
It is not in the mainstream of Evangelical Christianity.
And that's a bad thing?
OK I will correct that. It is not in the mainstream of real Christianity period.
quote:
Bob’s homophobia is part and parcel of his schizophrenic belief system.
In what way is Bob's belief system "schizophrenic?"
His Ultradispensationalism.
quote:
We should live holy lives. But, as I see it Bob and his comrades need this verse.
“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:8
But Bob’s cohorts will quote some verse (probably OT) to counteract the impact and importance of 1 John 4:8.
Wrong: "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil . . ." - (Romans 12:9) Yet another New Testament verse on why good Christians are supposed to be judgmental.
Yes we are to abhor what is evil. At the same time we need to “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.” At the same time we are to “be at peace with all men” that includes homosexuals. Finally, “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” All Paul’s words.
quote:
Jesus truly did love the sinner but hated the sin.
Will God send only people's sins to Hell or will He send people themselves to Hell?
I presume you did not understand what I said.
quote:
The truth is that the more one get into sin, any sin, the more that sin has a grip on us. Therefore sin will make us more defiant and unrepentant to God.
Does this include the sin of worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance and Political Correctness?
You sure do miss my point.
quote:
One other thing, condemnation of homosexuals will not bring them to the Lord. Yes they need to hear a message of repentance but more than anything they really need to hear the Gospel message of hope and the love of Jesus.
I disagree. The Gospel message is useless to a person who feels he is not a sinner. Christ Himself said, " The ones who are whole do not need a physician, but the ones who are sick" (Mat. 9:12). Most homosexuals do not believe they are "sick." We need to convince them that they are sick.
Did you always think you were a sinner before you came to repentance and faith in Jesus? I do know of a few who came to Christ through hell fire and damnation preaching because they admitted that they were extremely hard hearted. But, the vast majority of believers came to Christ in response to the love and compassion of the person sharing the Gospel with them. God’s Love and Holiness go together.
quote:
St. John says “We love because He first loved us.”
Exactly, and Luke 7:47 says, "But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little." If a person is going to have a great amount of biblical love, that person must first realize the huge amount that he has been forgiven.
No contest there.
quote:
Finally, I certainly hope that Bob is not tangled up with that horrible group known for their motto “God hates fags”. If he is, then I pray that Bob’s whole ministry closes down. That group from some Baptist church in Topeka Kansas is so evil in what they do and say I can truly say that it is not from God but from the Devil.
But God does hate fags.
Then why did Jesus die on the Cross. To follow your logic then God hated you before you come to know Him. You need to read John 3:16 slowly and carefully again. Your theology is at best totally illogical, at worst evil.
quote:
Originally posted by karstkid
Ultradispensationalism has numerous aberrant beliefs.
Such as?
No practice of water baptism which is aberrant and cultic. Two. Only Paul’s epistles apply to us today. Three. One does not have to obey what Jesus said because it applies only to Jews.
quote:
It is not in the mainstream of Evangelical Christianity.
And that's a bad thing?
OK I will correct that. It is not in the mainstream of real Christianity period.
quote:
Bob’s homophobia is part and parcel of his schizophrenic belief system.
In what way is Bob's belief system "schizophrenic?"
His Ultradispensationalism.
quote:
We should live holy lives. But, as I see it Bob and his comrades need this verse.
“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:8
But Bob’s cohorts will quote some verse (probably OT) to counteract the impact and importance of 1 John 4:8.
Wrong: "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil . . ." - (Romans 12:9) Yet another New Testament verse on why good Christians are supposed to be judgmental.
Yes we are to abhor what is evil. At the same time we need to “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.” At the same time we are to “be at peace with all men” that includes homosexuals. Finally, “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” All Paul’s words.
quote:
Jesus truly did love the sinner but hated the sin.
Will God send only people's sins to Hell or will He send people themselves to Hell?
I presume you did not understand what I said.
quote:
The truth is that the more one get into sin, any sin, the more that sin has a grip on us. Therefore sin will make us more defiant and unrepentant to God.
Does this include the sin of worshipping the false god of Public Acceptance and Political Correctness?
You sure do miss my point.
quote:
One other thing, condemnation of homosexuals will not bring them to the Lord. Yes they need to hear a message of repentance but more than anything they really need to hear the Gospel message of hope and the love of Jesus.
I disagree. The Gospel message is useless to a person who feels he is not a sinner. Christ Himself said, " The ones who are whole do not need a physician, but the ones who are sick" (Mat. 9:12). Most homosexuals do not believe they are "sick." We need to convince them that they are sick.
Did you always think you were a sinner before you came to repentance and faith in Jesus? I do know of a few who came to Christ through hell fire and damnation preaching because they admitted that they were extremely hard hearted. But, the vast majority of believers came to Christ in response to the love and compassion of the person sharing the Gospel with them. God’s Love and Holiness go together.
quote:
St. John says “We love because He first loved us.”
Exactly, and Luke 7:47 says, "But to whom little is forgiven, he loves little." If a person is going to have a great amount of biblical love, that person must first realize the huge amount that he has been forgiven.
No contest there.
quote:
Finally, I certainly hope that Bob is not tangled up with that horrible group known for their motto “God hates fags”. If he is, then I pray that Bob’s whole ministry closes down. That group from some Baptist church in Topeka Kansas is so evil in what they do and say I can truly say that it is not from God but from the Devil.
But God does hate fags.
Then why did Jesus die on the Cross. To follow your logic then God hated you before you come to know Him. You need to read John 3:16 slowly and carefully again. Your theology is at best totally illogical, at worst evil.
Easy. There are court cases all the time concerning auto theft for example and defendants and witnesses for the defense are proven to be lying. It's called perjury. The biblical punishment for perjury (in this case) is not the death penalty.
People are also proven to be hypocrites all the time. A politician publicly advocates honesty and integrity in office yet is caught improperly channeling state funds into his private business. Again, the biblical punishment for this is not the death penalty.
Insurance companies prove people are lazy all the time. Many people falsly claim to have work related accidents and collect insurance payments for years until the insurance company secretly films them doing work in their yards involving heavy lifting. The insurance payments are immediately cancelled. Again, the biblical punishment for laziness is not the death penalty.
But God did tell governments to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts. Why?
.Ant
New member
Okay, you're right
I think Romans 1 hints at the answer:
"Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
But sin is sin, and whether it's perverse sexual acts or perverse words (ie. lying), it all deserves the death penalty. "The wages of sin is death".
karstkid
New member
Jefferson said:
“But God did tell governments to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts.”
That statement is false. God told ONLY ANCIENT ISRAEL to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts. Ancient Israel ended approximately 132 AD. Modern day Israel began in 1948.
“1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2“You shall also say to the sons of Israel,” Lev. 20:1
God allowed Israel to use the death penalty for many other sins besides homosexuality. Observe the following verses from Leviticus chapter 20.
‘Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
9‘If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.
10‘If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11‘If there is a man who lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
12‘If there is a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed incest, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
13‘If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
14‘If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with fire, so that there will be no immorality in your midst.
15‘If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.
16‘If there is a woman who approaches any animal to mate with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
27‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.’”
Along with homosexuality being condemned to the death penalty there was adultery, bestiality, human sacrifice, incest, and occult involvement as well. I do not hear you preaching the death penalty for these sinful practices. The silence is deafening.
Now regarding governments enacting the death penalty for homosexuality: Greece, Rome, Russia, France, England, and the USA are not theocracies like ancient Israel was. They never were and never will be. To be sure, there were Christians living in those countries but God never directed other countries like he directed Israel. None of them were ever “Christian” nations even though they may have had many Christians living there. The Papal States and the Holy Roman Empire were a joke. They were never a substitute for Israel. They were hardly “Christian” in themselves. Even hypothetically if a country was 100 percent born again bible believing Christians, it is still not Israel. God NEVER told governments, save that of ancient Israel, to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts. So, you cannot apply something that was given to ancient Israel to modern day United States. We are not even an extension of Israel. What does hold true is the principle of heinous sin that is described in Leviticus 20. Even you Ultradispensationalists who believe that Paul is all there is to the Bible should know that Paul, a Jew, never advocated killing of homosexuals. He is the same Paul who said regarding enemies “Bless and curse not.” So, why don’t you?
“But God did tell governments to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts.”
That statement is false. God told ONLY ANCIENT ISRAEL to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts. Ancient Israel ended approximately 132 AD. Modern day Israel began in 1948.
“1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2“You shall also say to the sons of Israel,” Lev. 20:1
God allowed Israel to use the death penalty for many other sins besides homosexuality. Observe the following verses from Leviticus chapter 20.
‘Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
9‘If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.
10‘If there is a man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, one who commits adultery with his friend’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11‘If there is a man who lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
12‘If there is a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed incest, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
13‘If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
14‘If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with fire, so that there will be no immorality in your midst.
15‘If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.
16‘If there is a woman who approaches any animal to mate with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
27‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.’”
Along with homosexuality being condemned to the death penalty there was adultery, bestiality, human sacrifice, incest, and occult involvement as well. I do not hear you preaching the death penalty for these sinful practices. The silence is deafening.
Now regarding governments enacting the death penalty for homosexuality: Greece, Rome, Russia, France, England, and the USA are not theocracies like ancient Israel was. They never were and never will be. To be sure, there were Christians living in those countries but God never directed other countries like he directed Israel. None of them were ever “Christian” nations even though they may have had many Christians living there. The Papal States and the Holy Roman Empire were a joke. They were never a substitute for Israel. They were hardly “Christian” in themselves. Even hypothetically if a country was 100 percent born again bible believing Christians, it is still not Israel. God NEVER told governments, save that of ancient Israel, to give the death penalty to people convicted of homosexual acts. So, you cannot apply something that was given to ancient Israel to modern day United States. We are not even an extension of Israel. What does hold true is the principle of heinous sin that is described in Leviticus 20. Even you Ultradispensationalists who believe that Paul is all there is to the Bible should know that Paul, a Jew, never advocated killing of homosexuals. He is the same Paul who said regarding enemies “Bless and curse not.” So, why don’t you?
Jefferson should be allowed to "pick and choose" which part of Scripture is binding for him and which part is not.
One thing we must realize is that he is doing the best he can with the knowledge, information and beliefs he has. Most of us are not biblical scholars or theologians. We don't have the time to study ancient languages and customs and we often rely on others (who may not even know themselves) with an attitude of obedience.
Everytime a preacher preaches or a teacher instructs others in Sunday school, an idea is stressed and Scripture is used to buttress that idea. Parts which do not are left out. The Bible is a collection of theologies as well as a collection of books. That is why the Old Testament (as Christians call it) is seen differently after Jesus came. That is why the New Testament is seen differently by 130,000 Protestant groups. It is also why the Catholic church can contain everyone from a Pope John Paul to Thomas Merton. It is also why Hitler and Mother Teresa could claim authority from the same book.
It is a bit silly to insist we as individuals or we as a certain group have the definitive view of the Bible.
This arrogance has happened all through the centuries since the texts were translated. As more and more people learn history that is not affected by theology--and have the intellect to keep them seperate--this narrow view will eventually dissipate.
History does inform faith. When we get our history right, faith will evolve.
One thing we must realize is that he is doing the best he can with the knowledge, information and beliefs he has. Most of us are not biblical scholars or theologians. We don't have the time to study ancient languages and customs and we often rely on others (who may not even know themselves) with an attitude of obedience.
Everytime a preacher preaches or a teacher instructs others in Sunday school, an idea is stressed and Scripture is used to buttress that idea. Parts which do not are left out. The Bible is a collection of theologies as well as a collection of books. That is why the Old Testament (as Christians call it) is seen differently after Jesus came. That is why the New Testament is seen differently by 130,000 Protestant groups. It is also why the Catholic church can contain everyone from a Pope John Paul to Thomas Merton. It is also why Hitler and Mother Teresa could claim authority from the same book.
It is a bit silly to insist we as individuals or we as a certain group have the definitive view of the Bible.
This arrogance has happened all through the centuries since the texts were translated. As more and more people learn history that is not affected by theology--and have the intellect to keep them seperate--this narrow view will eventually dissipate.
History does inform faith. When we get our history right, faith will evolve.
Paul's definition of blessing those who persecute you, living at peace with all men and overcoming evil with good includes the advocacy of the death penalty (Acts 25:11; Romans 13:4).
Compassion for what? Sin? How unloving and judgmental of you to imply to someone that they are a sinner.
I and God both love fags enough to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them on the day of judgment unless they humble themselves and receive God's forgiveness. Do you love them that much?
.Ant
New member
I don't think Paul advocates the death penalty.
This is about the authority of government to punish wrongdoing. It doesn't specifically mention the death penalty.
As Paul says later, all sin deserves death.
This verse does not endorse the death penalty. Paul is under Roman law, and is willing to accept the legal punishment. Just because I murder someone in a country where the penality for murder is death, and I accept my punishment, doesn't mean I endorse the death penalty as a whole.
karstkid
New member
A RESPONSE TO JEFFERSON
quote:
Paul's definition of blessing those who persecute you, living at peace with all men and overcoming evil with good includes the advocacy of the death penalty (Acts 25:11; Romans 13:4).
In Acts 25:11 Paul is appearing before a Roman tribunal. Do you think the pagan Romans had laws to execute homosexuals? LOL, they virtually promoted it. Just don’t throw verses out there; look at the context.
quote:
Compassion for what? Sin? How unloving and judgmental of you to imply to someone that they are a sinner.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt. 11:28-30
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ Matt. 25:34-40
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 4:17-21
If that is not love and compassion for the lost, then you tell me what is?
quote:
I and God both love fags enough to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them on the day of judgment unless they humble themselves and receive God's forgiveness. Do you love them that much?
If you feel that the Lord is leading you to bring the Gospel to homosexuals so the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgment, then go for it. Are you going to gay bars so you can preach the Good News to them? Are you visiting gay churches in order to bring them the true Gospel? Are you going to places where gays hang out, like Cheeseman Park in Denver to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them? Are you willing to move to a gay neighborhood so you can preach to your homosexual neighbors? Actions speak louder than words.
quote:
Paul's definition of blessing those who persecute you, living at peace with all men and overcoming evil with good includes the advocacy of the death penalty (Acts 25:11; Romans 13:4).
In Acts 25:11 Paul is appearing before a Roman tribunal. Do you think the pagan Romans had laws to execute homosexuals? LOL, they virtually promoted it. Just don’t throw verses out there; look at the context.
quote:
Compassion for what? Sin? How unloving and judgmental of you to imply to someone that they are a sinner.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt. 11:28-30
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ Matt. 25:34-40
And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
19 TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 4:17-21
If that is not love and compassion for the lost, then you tell me what is?
quote:
I and God both love fags enough to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them on the day of judgment unless they humble themselves and receive God's forgiveness. Do you love them that much?
If you feel that the Lord is leading you to bring the Gospel to homosexuals so the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgment, then go for it. Are you going to gay bars so you can preach the Good News to them? Are you visiting gay churches in order to bring them the true Gospel? Are you going to places where gays hang out, like Cheeseman Park in Denver to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them? Are you willing to move to a gay neighborhood so you can preach to your homosexual neighbors? Actions speak louder than words.
Not really. 3 things:
First - The verse commanding the stoning of rebellious children falls under the category of symbolic laws that symbolized the theocratic covenant relationship between Israel and God. It is not to be applied to today's nontheocratic governments (which is all of them).
Second - the rebellious "children" in question were adult children as Deuteronomy 21:20 shows - "And they shall say to the elders of his city, this son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey our voice. He is a glutton and a drunkard." I don't know too many drunkards who are 5 years old.
Finally, there is a strong principle in the Bible for victims rights. The victim of a crime is the one who decides whether the allowed penalty will be enforce or not. The death penalty for cursing one's parents would not be automatic.
When the State is the prosecuting agent of case laws where a pleonasm is in the verse (eg. "dying he shall surely die"), it would enforce the death penalty upon conviction with no judicial discretion in imposing sanctions.
However, when the victim is the prosecuting agent, victims rights prevail. For example, the Bible commands the death penalty for adultery. However, an innocent husband in a particular case may decide that his preschool children need their mother (slut though she may be) much more than he needs justice. The father's decision to allow the slut to live would stand.
A specific example from the Bible is Joseph's refusal to prosecute Mary when he found out she was pregnant before they were married. The Bible calls Joseph a righteous man. Why? Didn't Joseph violate Biblical law by not prosecuting his pregnant betrothed? No. Joseph had the Biblical freedom to forgive Mary. He chose that freedom and sought to divorce Mary quietly.
Wrong. When Paul writes that children should obey their parents (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20) do you actually take that fact to imply that only children of Christian parents are under moral obligation to obey their parents? The fact that only Israel was given a special revelation of certain political laws does not mean that only Israel was bound to keep such laws. The Gentiles who were not given the law still have the work of the law written on their hearts (see Romans 2:12-16). In fact Romans 1:31 says that those who commit abominations such as homosexuality know that "those who practice such things are worthy of death."
Please pay close attention to Deuteronomy 4:5-8: "Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Jehovah my God commanded me, so that you should do so in the land where you go to possess it. And you shall keep and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For who is a great nation whose God is coming near to them, as Jehovah our God is, in all our calling on Him? And who is a great nation whose statutes and judgments are so righteous as all this Law which I set before you today?"
That passage shows that Israel's law was supposed to be a model for all the gentile nations around her.
The plan was that all nations would flow into Zion saying, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:2,3)
God obviously required the gentile nations to obey his law as Lev 18:24-28 shows: "Do not defile yourselves in any of these things. For in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out before you. And the land is defiled. Therefore I visit its wickedness on it, and the land itself vomits out those who live in it. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, neither the native, nor any stranger that lives among you. For the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and the land is defiled. You shall not do these so that the land may not spew you out also when you defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you."
Please quote me where I said otherwise. The only reason why I am singling out the death penalty for homosexuality on this thread is because the title of this thread is, "Why is Bob proud of being homophobic?"
See my comments above.
Wanna bet? In First Timothy 1:8-10 Paul says, "But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully, knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine"
karstkid
New member
Response to Jefferson.
Quote:
That passage shows that Israel's law was supposed to be a model for all the gentile nations around her.
You are idealistic for something that never really happened in history. Israel may, a few times, have been a model of righteousness to nearby nations, but reality wins out in that other nations did not practiced God's Law. God never spoke directly to those nations for a Law like the Law of Moses. Historically it never happened. If Israel was the chosen people and they wavered like alternating current in regards to obeying God's Law how could you expect a pagan to do so. Again your unrealistic expectations are astounding.
Quote:
Please quote me where I said otherwise. The only reason why I am singling out the death penalty for homosexuality on this thread is because the title of this thread is, "Why is Bob proud of being homophobic?"
That is the impression you gave in you answers. You gave me nothing to think so otherwise.
Quote:
Wanna bet? In First Timothy 1:8-10 Paul says, "But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully, knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine"
I know lots of people who were lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, profane, fornicators, and liars before they became Christians. Jefferson, weren't you one or several of the conditions above. We all were. If you interpret the verse the way you do, then you would be burning in hell right now if you were executed by the state for lying before you had a chance to come to Christ. The Gospel is not the Law, it is the Good News. Christ died for our sins so we can have eternal life. Now that is good news! Homosexuals have to come to repentance and faith. The Holy Spirit has to woo them like He wooed you and I. We can't play Holy Spirit. If a person (for this thread I say homosexual) is incorrigible then there is very little you can do except pray for their salvation. BTW there are millions, perhaps billions of incorrigible people on this planet and the vast majority are not homosexual. Besides why waste time on those that do not want to hear the Gospel. Time is better spent on those ready for harvesting instead of the scoffers.
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That passage shows that Israel's law was supposed to be a model for all the gentile nations around her.
You are idealistic for something that never really happened in history. Israel may, a few times, have been a model of righteousness to nearby nations, but reality wins out in that other nations did not practiced God's Law. God never spoke directly to those nations for a Law like the Law of Moses. Historically it never happened. If Israel was the chosen people and they wavered like alternating current in regards to obeying God's Law how could you expect a pagan to do so. Again your unrealistic expectations are astounding.
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Please quote me where I said otherwise. The only reason why I am singling out the death penalty for homosexuality on this thread is because the title of this thread is, "Why is Bob proud of being homophobic?"
That is the impression you gave in you answers. You gave me nothing to think so otherwise.
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Wanna bet? In First Timothy 1:8-10 Paul says, "But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully, knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine"
I know lots of people who were lawless, disobedient, ungodly, sinners, unholy, profane, fornicators, and liars before they became Christians. Jefferson, weren't you one or several of the conditions above. We all were. If you interpret the verse the way you do, then you would be burning in hell right now if you were executed by the state for lying before you had a chance to come to Christ. The Gospel is not the Law, it is the Good News. Christ died for our sins so we can have eternal life. Now that is good news! Homosexuals have to come to repentance and faith. The Holy Spirit has to woo them like He wooed you and I. We can't play Holy Spirit. If a person (for this thread I say homosexual) is incorrigible then there is very little you can do except pray for their salvation. BTW there are millions, perhaps billions of incorrigible people on this planet and the vast majority are not homosexual. Besides why waste time on those that do not want to hear the Gospel. Time is better spent on those ready for harvesting instead of the scoffers.
.Ant, regarding Romans 13:4 you wrote:
Regarding Acts 25:11 you wrote:
What do you think the governing authorities used the "sword" in verse 14 for? Tickling?
Regarding Acts 25:11 you wrote:
All sin deserves death by the law of sin and death that God imposes. That is quite different from the delegated authority of capital punishment that God gave to human governments. That method of death does not apply to all sinners, but only to those sinners who have commited capital crimes as outlined in the Bible.
Paul did not say, "If I am guilty of doing anything that your law says is deserving of death . . ." Rather he said, "If I am guilty of doing anything deserving of death . . ." If Paul agreed that he committed a captital crime that IS deserving of death, not only in Paul's eyes but in God's eyes as well, then Paul did "not refuse to die."
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karstkid, you wrote:
Regarding Mat. 11:28-30; 25:34-40; and Luke 4:17-21, you wrote:
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The point of quoting Acts 25:11 is to show that Paul is an advocate of the death penalty. No one is saying Paul advocated the Roman definition of what constitutes a capital crime.
Regarding Mat. 11:28-30; 25:34-40; and Luke 4:17-21, you wrote:
Where are homosexual perverts mentioned in those verses? You are comparing apples with oranges.
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I'll answer your question just as soon as you answer my question which you have so far avoided: "I and God both love fags enough to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them on the day of judgment unless they humble themselves and receive God's forgiveness. Do you love them that much?
The point of that passage is that it is God's WILL for the Gentile nations to obey God's moral law. Whether those nations actually do obey Him in history is beside the point.
Please quote me which Old Testament verse commands the death penalty for lying.
The Law is indespensable to the Gospel:
- Galatians 3:24 - "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
- Romans 3:19 - "But we know that whatever things the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law; so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may be under judgment before God"
- Romans 3:20 - " for through the Law is the knowledge of sin."
- Romans 7:7 - "I did not know sin except through the law."
- Psalm 19:7 - "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul"
Therefore, should we get in the Holy Spirit's way by communicating to homosexuals that they are no more vile than the average person who fudges a little on his taxes?
Not all homosexuals are scoffers. Some repent and become born again Christians.
karstkid
New member
Response to Jefferson:
Yes, I would feed them and at the same time rebuke their sin if necessary and encourage them to come to Jesus.
Since you are SO fixated on homosexuals, you do need to answer my question to you.
"If you feel that the Lord is leading you to bring the Gospel to homosexuals so the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgment, then go for it. Are you going to gay bars so you can preach the Good News to them? Are you visiting gay churches in order to bring them the true Gospel? Are you going to places where gays hang out, like Cheeseman Park in Denver to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them? Are you willing to move to a gay neighborhood so you can preach to your homosexual neighbors?"
If you do not answer it, do I get to call you a hypocrite?
Yes, I would feed them and at the same time rebuke their sin if necessary and encourage them to come to Jesus.
Since you are SO fixated on homosexuals, you do need to answer my question to you.
"If you feel that the Lord is leading you to bring the Gospel to homosexuals so the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, righteousness, and judgment, then go for it. Are you going to gay bars so you can preach the Good News to them? Are you visiting gay churches in order to bring them the true Gospel? Are you going to places where gays hang out, like Cheeseman Park in Denver to convince them that their vile acts will testify against them? Are you willing to move to a gay neighborhood so you can preach to your homosexual neighbors?"
If you do not answer it, do I get to call you a hypocrite?
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