Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal

[Arthur Brain]

Thing is, you are both arguing from within a "one size fits all" position.

Each based on the limitations of the particular lens from which you are each looking out at things from.

From an obvious failure to have rigorously asked ' what might be a counter-counter to my conclusion, that I may have possibly failed to search out?'

Case in point, regarding a discrepency I find in your view: one sees a same kind of a discrepancy in the supposed eyewitness of two direct students of some famous teacher whose teachings they now each assert the other has greatly misinterpreted.

This, although both assert "I was there, I know different..."

In other words, your assertion that one who was there knows what's what, is as slightly full of holes as the assertion that one would have to run around, say, with Trump, in order to know what drives the man.

Fact is, many a science of the patterns of man and or of their impact (Archeology, Anthropology, even Geology, and so on) all prove the very opposite.

All prove that such things are more a matter of where one is looking out at a thing from, even more so, than actually having been there.

You might take offense to having this pointed out to you...personally...I find my above to often be that difference that often makes the difference... between a much more well rounded approach or science...and a pseudo-science.

I'm not offended at all Danoh although how am I arguing from a "one size fits all" position where I've conceded that abuse and trauma have significant impact on a child's development and psyche? What I'm arguing is that the "actual one size fits all" argument can't work because that would mean that every homosexual and bisexual would have been abused or subject to some sort of major trauma in their childhood and that is an untenable position to hold.

 

[Lon]

Well, there's the flip side to your experiences and in cases of abuse you still claim are happening, what's being done about it? I won't dispute that abuse can result in trauma and harmful effects on the psyche, that is obvious but it simply isn't the root cause of homo or bisexuality and if you think it does then you're condemning every parent or family relative of playing some harmful role in their having a son/daughter, nephew/niece etc if they're gay. I think you need to ponder on that a moment and consider the ramifications of what you seem to suggest.

Not all abuse is done by parents. In Ellen DeGeneres' case, it was a step-father. In my two step-nephew's case, a daycare worker. In my step-nieces, parental. In my wife's best friend (from high school): parental. I have looked long and hard. If you have none in your family, you have less hands-on, but there are stats, like Idola gave that confirm much of this. MANY were sexually abused but any abuse can cause such role-rejection. In one case, "I" might have put off women altogether is she were my mother as well. I'd likely have been celibate at that point, given my theology over the mater, however.

Ironically it would seem to be Christian, conservative parents who are so strung out at the prospect of their children being gay to the point of trying to get them "cured" in "therapy centers". Yet these uphold traditional family values so what's going on there?

Again, it can, is, but doesn't always have to be, nor is it true, that parents are always to blame for such.

Years ago (and I'll qualify this by saying that my dad has mellowed a LOT on the subject since) my dad threatened to disown me if it transpired I ever did hard drugs or was a homosexual. He had nothing to worry about (apart from an ill advised foray with LSD) but would you consider that type of remark to be loving or reasonable? Some kids have to deal with hiding their homosexuality because of attitudes like that.

It's a hard threat. I can't see that trying to draw clear lines that cannot be crossed is always a bad thing. My own parents didn't 'disown' my brother, but they did send him off to be raised by somebody else when he would not give up drugs. It was a very tough intervention, but it worked. I think we are talking about the most effective loving thing to do and sometimes it is really hard. Kids are all different and knowing exactly how to be the best kind of parent for each of them is difficult, even for those of us who are really trying hard to be the best kind of parent we can be. LSD? You were a Mormon? :noway:

As to the latter, there's simply no credible evidence that it works.

Intervention therapy often doesn't. It is usually seen as a last resource effort. Ban all intervention therapy? Maybe. I'd not want to take any hope away from anybody, however, if there is even a chance such interventions can get even a small percentage away from harmful activity.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Not all abuse is done by parents. In Ellen DeGeneres' case, it was a step-father. In my two step-nephew's case, a daycare worker. In my step-nieces, parental. In my wife's best friend (from high school): parental. I have looked long and hard. If you have none in your family, you have less hands-on, but there are stats, like Idola gave that confirm much of this. MANY were sexually abused but any abuse can cause such role-rejection. In one case, "I" might have put off women altogether is she were my mother as well. I'd likely have been celibate at that point, given my theology over the mater, however.

Lon, before there's any point in continuing on this aspect, are you at all open to the notion that people who identify on an orientation level as something other than heterosexual haven't all been subject to abuse or trauma of some sort, parental or otherwise? In other words, can you entertain the notion that some people are simply gay or bi without some massive upheaval that went on in their lives?

Again, it can, is, but doesn't always have to be, nor is it true, that parents are always to blame for such.

Or anyone else but it sure is the fault of a parent if they force their children into "therapy", right?

It's a hard threat. I can't see that trying to draw clear lines that cannot be crossed is always a bad thing. My own parents didn't 'disown' my brother, but they did send him off to be raised by somebody else when he would not give up drugs. It was a very tough intervention, but it worked. I think we are talking about the most effective loving thing to do and sometimes it is really hard. Kids are all different and knowing exactly how to be the best kind of parent for each of them is difficult, even for those of us who are really trying hard to be the best kind of parent we can be. LSD? You were a Mormon? :noway:

Eh, as I explained to Danoh it wasn't really any of one really. My dad at the time was certainly rather homophobic but mellowed a lot after realizing that many people he admired weren't all straight and it didn't happen to make them immoral monsters only interested in buggery...

LDS might have been a better option...

Intervention therapy often doesn't. It is usually seen as a last resource effort. Ban all intervention therapy? Maybe. I'd not want to take any hope away from anybody, however, if there is even a chance such interventions can get even a small percentage away from harmful activity.

If an adult wants to avail themselves of discredited practices, that's one thing but children shouldn't be forced into any such thing. I realize from a religious perspective that you perceive anything homosexually related as harmful but not everyone has that or in a "free" society should be bound to.

 

[Lon]

Lon, before there's any point in continuing on this aspect, are you at all open to the notion that people who identify on an orientation level as something other than heterosexual haven't all been subject to abuse or trauma of some sort, parental or otherwise? In other words, can you entertain the notion that some people are simply gay or bi without some massive upheaval that went on in their lives?

I'm not sure. For instance, some kids came from incredibly promiscuous homes in Hollywood, and thus you might not agree that it was some form of duress. At the least, we'd have to at least agree that 'unconventional' or 'different' would/could also be a contributing factor, but it'd have to be something different from the traditional roles most kids see between a father and mother. There is definitely a HUGE correlation between the rise in homosexuality and the divorce rate, for instance. It is reported that the divorce rate is diminishing, but so is the marriage rate. It simply means only those committed to that value are actually getting married in the first place. I'm saying there is a very good and I think noble reason to question Ellen DeGeneres' homosexuality as it relates to her sexual abuse.

Or anyone else but it sure is the fault of a parent if they force their children into "therapy", right?

As I said, a lot of interventions are seen as last resort and I'd rarely recommend that.

Eh, as I explained to Danoh it wasn't really any of one really. My dad at the time was certainly rather homophobic but mellowed a lot after realizing that many people he admired weren't all straight and it didn't happen to make them immoral monsters only interested in buggery...

Sounds like you've both been through a bit, and that some good healing took place. I appreciate you sharing a bit of him with me here. Thank you.

LDS might have been a better option...

I've no real knowledge of either.

If an adult wants to avail themselves of discredited practices, that's one thing but children shouldn't be forced into any such thing. I realize from a religious perspective that you perceive anything homosexually related as harmful but not everyone has that or in a "free" society should be bound to.

It is still better, at that point to remain celibate. There are health problems associated with adverse activities and still there are psychological difficulties. Even if only from society at large, still significant enough to talk about, regardless of the reasons they are present. At any rate, I think interventions are best done by families, perhaps with a qualified psych, but I'd think with just family would be better (talking 'interventions in general"). -Lon

 

[Idolater]

...To argue from a position that all or most homosexuals and bisexuals are "made" is one that simply can't be maintained however. Sometimes an unreasonable position has to be called what it is.

Mainly, because we don't know why pedophiles, child rapists, select their victims. It could be that these predators perceive something that's already there, and that that's why, there's a correlation between the child abuse, and LGBT people---not that they're 'made,' it's more about the predators, and what they disproportionally target.

Chilling.

 

[Danoh]

Mainly, because we don't know why pedophiles, child rapists, select their victims. It could be that these predators perceive something that's already there, and that that's why, there's a correlation between the child abuse, and LGBT people---not that they're 'made,' it's more about the predators, and what they disproportionally target.

Chilling.

Various Law Enforcement departments (like the FBI's Behavioural Science Unit, for example) have identified why such sexual criminals select their victims, how they target them, set them up for their fall into their clutches, and so on.

In short, "we" do "know."

 

[Danoh]

I'm not sure. For instance, some kids came from incredibly promiscuous homes in Hollywood, and thus you might not agree that it was some form of duress. At the least, we'd have to at least agree that 'unconventional' or 'different' would/could also be a contributing factor, but it'd have to be something different from the traditional roles most kids see between a father and mother. There is definitely a HUGE correlation between the rise in homosexuality and the divorce rate, for instance. It is reported that the divorce rate is diminishing, but so is the marriage rate. It simply means only those committed to that value are actually getting married in the first place. I'm saying there is a very good and I think noble reason to question Ellen DeGeneres' homosexuality as it relates to her sexual abuse.



As I said, a lot of interventions are seen as last resort and I'd rarely recommend that.


Sounds like you've both been through a bit, and that some good healing took place. I appreciate you sharing a bit of him with me here. Thank you.

I've no real knowledge of either.




It is still better, at that point to remain celibate. There are health problems associated with adverse activities and still there are psychological difficulties. Even if only from society at large, still significant enough to talk about, regardless of the reasons they are present. At any rate, I think interventions are best done by families, perhaps with a qualified psych, but I'd think with just family would be better (talking 'interventions in general"). -Lon

Amusing how you read a thing into a thing and then run with it as a settled conclusion.

You have both done that.

It remains obvious you have each not been rigorous enough, if at all, in asking yourselves a question like ' what might be a counter-example to the conclusion I have come to hold.'

Thus, each your extreme view.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Amusing how you read a thing into a thing and then run with it as a settled conclusion.

You have both done that.

It remains obvious you have each not been rigorous enough, if at all, in asking yourselves a question like ' what might be a counter-example to the conclusion I have come to hold.'

Thus, each your extreme view.

I refer you back to post #301.

 

[Idolater]

Various Law Enforcement departments (like the FBI's Behavioural Science Unit, for example) have identified why such sexual criminals select their victims, how they target them, set them up for their fall into their clutches, and so on.

In short, "we" do "know."

So you're saying that there is, a causal relationship between being sexually abused/raped by a homosexual pedophile as a youth, and then turning out LGBT as a grownup?

 

[Danoh]

So you're saying that there is, a causal relationship between being sexually abused/raped by a homosexual pedophile as a youth, and then turning out LGBT as a grownup?

No. For that is not my observation of that kind of thing. My observation over the years has been that plenty of people sexually molested by a same sex molester go on to lead heterosexual lives.

I was addressing only the following part of what you posted: this here - "Mainly, because we don't know why pedophiles, child rapists, select their victims."

Which leads me to suggesting once more, the question I have been repeatedly asserting must rigorously ask oneself before allowing oneself conclusion - 'before allowing myself my conclusion (on this, that, the other) what might be a counter-example of my conclusion?'

That perhaps might be a part of why I so often end up at odds with various people on here - I am ever asking that very question.

There is that downside.

But the upside: the much it has often allowed me to see, that others perhaps may have not, far often outweighs said downside.

I mean, one must always attempt to be aware of where one is looking at a thing from - even as one is asserting it.

 

[Lon]

Amusing how you read a thing into a thing and then run with it as a settled conclusion.

You have both done that.

It remains obvious you have each not been rigorous enough, if at all, in asking yourselves a question like ' what might be a counter-example to the conclusion I have come to hold.'

Thus, each your extreme view.

I'm not convinced, not even knowing what your views and beliefs are. You may be amused, but I particularly am convinced from what I've seen. I'd reckon and imagine you've no homosexuals in your family either, though. At least to me, it doesn't seem so. -Lon

 

[MrDante]

Just because a crime is legal doesn't make it any less of a crime.

Forcing blacks to sit in the back of a bus because they're "inferior" is a crime.

Homosexuality is a crime.

Just because they're legal doesn't make them right.



No sensible person would disagree.



Legalizing crimes is not.

Homosexuality is a crime, just like racism is a crime.

Saying homosexuality should be legalized because racism was legal isn't an argument at all, let alone a good argument.

in the cases of racism and homosexuality it's bigotry that is the crime.

 

[MrDante]

Mainly, because we don't know why pedophiles, child rapists, select their victims. It could be that these predators perceive something that's already there, and that that's why, there's a correlation between the child abuse, and LGBT people---not that they're 'made,' it's more about the predators, and what they disproportionally target.

Chilling.

child sexual abuse is a crime of opportunity, the molester will abuse based on his access and control over the child.


the connection between child abuse and homosexuality is correlative not causative. What's been found through examining thousands of studies is that the child abuse rates of homosexuals and heterosexuals is identical up until adolescence. it's only after a child can be identified, or guessed to be homosexual do the rates of abuse skyrocket.

 

[Idolater]

child sexual abuse is a crime of opportunity, the molester will abuse based on his access and control over the child.


the connection between child abuse and homosexuality is correlative not causative. What's been found through examining thousands of studies is that the child abuse rates of homosexuals and heterosexuals is identical up until adolescence. it's only after a child can be identified, or guessed to be homosexual do the rates of abuse skyrocket.

Thank you. Can you point me towards the studies you indicated that suggest 'that the child abuse rates of homosexuals and heterosexuals is identical up until adolescence,' and that, 'it's only after a child can be identified, or guessed to be homosexual [that] the rates of abuse skyrocket?'

 

[MennoSota]

I will simply share this video clip regarding the brokenness of our desires. Not one person is exempt from this brokenness. Our desires can easily lead us toward sin if they are followed or left unchecked. The person who checks our desires and groans for us in our sin is the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who is our counselor and can free us from desires that are not God-ward.
https://youtu.be/Ceq91r0SyHw

 

[Arthur Brain]

Looks as though it is gonna be illegal over here in the UK. Sanity prevails...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44686374

 

[Ktoyou]

It seems that gluttony is a light sin, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it one of the 'capital sins,' but doesn't specify it as grave matter, at least not to my knowledge.

BLTs are yummy.

What we usually associate with gluttony, eating large amounts of food, is not so sinful as it is to consume what may be shared with others.

 

[Ktoyou]

Looks as though it is gonna be illegal over here in the UK. Sanity prevails...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44686374

Well, it should be! Now I do like behaviour modification, as it was the only psychology game in town when I went to school, but if I had my way, I would rather attempt to do in on a consent basis and see if I could get some subjects attracted to ducks.

Guess I am a bit class conscience?

 

[Idolater]

What we usually associate with gluttony, eating large amounts of food, is not so sinful as it is to consume what may be shared with others.

:thumb:

Large people are large because they're gluttons. Gluttony is a light sin. There are oftentimes considerable circumstances that make avoiding gluttony practically impossible, such as hormonal variability, or glandular dysfunction, or relationship, economic, or societal stresses, or just old fashioned bad habits. But, it's light sin. 'Means, even if you plan it out, and do it deliberately constantly, you're still forgiven automatically.

Shame for gluttony is wasted and should be redirected towards 'reckless optimism,' which is a description I heard someone make about the athletes in the Special Olympics; they display 'reckless optimism.' That's what you should do, instead of feel shame for committing light sins, be recklessly optimistic.

 

[Idolater]

Well, it should be! Now I do like behaviour modification, as it was the only psychology game in town when I went to school, but if I had my way, I would rather attempt to do in on a consent basis and see if I could get some subjects attracted to ducks.

Guess I am a bit class conscience?

Instead of 'pray away the gay,' can't you just mock it away? Would that work?