Why Christians DON'T need Rules, Laws, Works, Religion, Predestination, etc.

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben.

Just to clarify something. James 2:26 doesn't say "works of the Law" that I know of.

James 2:17 says something similar: "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

But neither one says "works of the Law". Every time the Bible mentions "works" it doesn't always mean "works of the Law" and I don't think that is what James is referring to here.

But that could be another whole discussion, I suppose.

Here's one more example of "works" being used but it isn't referring to "works of the Law".

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

Peace.

BtheB, you have all the right in the world to your opinion but, what is the difference between works according to the Law and good works?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

BtheB, you have all the right in the world to your opinion but, what is the difference between works according to the Law and good works?

Hey Ben.

Well, that could be a huge discussion and you are right, everyone doesn't agree on it.

Some people think "works of the Law" as Paul writes about it especially in Romans and Galatians refers to the visible things that the Jewish people did that set them apart from the Gentiles. Things like the circumcision requirement, dietary restrictions, the code of what makes someone clean/unclean, their liturgical feasts, etc. Those things identified the Jews as the Chosen People in the Old Covenant and set them apart from the Gentiles.

But in the New Covenant, the distinction between Jews and Gentiles is gone. The New Covenant includes both. So the "works of the Law" that set the Jews apart are no longer needed.

When Paul says that what matters is "faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6) and "...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law..." (Romans 13: 8-10) he is basically confirming what Jesus said when He said the greatest commandment is to love God with all we have and love our neighbor as ourselves. And here Paul is referring to the moral law which was both binding on those in the Old Covenant as well as those in the New Covenant. This refers to things like the 10 commandments (Paul lists some of those in Romans 13)and Jesus' command in Matthew 25 and elsewhere to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, care for widows and orphans....things like what the Good Samaritan did in Jesus' parable. Those are good works that Jews and Gentiles can do, but they are not "works of the Law" that separate Jews from Gentiles.

But yeah, you are right, what is the difference between "works of the Law" and "good works" could be a much longer discussion. What I wrote above I've heard from others and it sortof makes sense to me.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

what is the difference between works according to the Law and good works?

Works of the law are things the law required such as Deuteronomy 16:16.

Good works are things we do for God and neighbor.

 

[Epoisses]

I agree. But is that all he was doing? The passage seems pretty clear that he is also saying that if a person has incredible faith (enough to move mountains), but does not have love with it, it amounts to nothing.



Ok. We are discussing the Bible. I don't see anyone pitting verses against each other. I don't know what you mean by that.

And I don't know what a "noob" is and I'm not going to look it up. Sounds insulting, though.

And if you believe that the Christian is to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, do we have to live by these following examples of the word of God?:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6:14)

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21)

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3)

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." (1 John 5:3)

"He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;" (1 John 2:4)


Recall that Robert started this discussion by claiming that Christians do not need "rules, laws, works..." etc.

I responded because I wanted to know what he meant by that because it seems like Jesus left His followers with some rules, laws, works, etc. to follow and to do.

Peace.

And the new commandment is that we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. Love is a fruit of having the Holy Spirit. As a sinner I can never generate love on my own, are you a sinner?

 

[Epoisses]

Did I say that? I don't remember saying that.

I remember asking you where this statement of yours can be found in Scripture:

"Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it."

Well?

There are only two options.

Faith alone or faith plus works.

Faith alone produces the works of the Spirit.

The other produces the works of the Pharisees.

Not that hard to figure out unless you are a reprobate.

A reprobate is someone who is cast off by God like a homosexual.

 

[Epoisses]

Well, it is the closest you have achieved of the Truth so far. Faith alone, without the works of the Law is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

You are a Judaizing heretic and should be shunned by anyone with an ounce of faith.

 

[Epoisses]

Works of the law are things the law required such as Deuteronomy 16:16.

Good works are things we do for God and neighbor.

Good works are things that Jesus does in those who have faith which is not you.

Sit is silence and learn from those who were created in the image of God.

 

[Nick M]

Works of the law are things the law required such as Deuteronomy 16:16.

Made up.

Matthew 23

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

There are only two options.

Faith alone or faith plus works.

Hey Epoisses,

So I guess it is clear that your comment "Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it." cannot be found in Scripture. That's ok.

Faith alone produces the works of the Spirit.

I would like to know where this statement can be found in Scripture as well, but no need to continue this way...we both know it is not there either.

Not that hard to figure out unless you are a reprobate.

A reprobate is someone who is cast off by God like a homosexual.

I am gonna go ahead and take another break from TOL for awhile. I do not wish to continue a discussion with you at this time and Robert won't answer my questions and it was his prompt that I was originally responding to anyway. So it is a good time for me to leave.

I am disappointed that you have dropped down into name-calling of Ben (in your post #48) and your condescending tone with Jamie and accusing her of having no faith (in your post #49).

Very uncool and unnecessary, man.

And that comment about homosexuals? Remember, we are all sinners and God loves us all. He loves Christians, He loves Muslims, He loves Jews, He loves Hindus, He loves atheists, He loves agnostics, He loves thieves, He loves adulterers, He loves murderers, and yes, He loves homosexuals. What He hates in all of us is our sins.

Heaven and Hell are real and I'm not saying that everyone makes it to Heaven. But God loves us all and any person can reach a point in their lives where they repent of their sins, accept Christ, obtain forgiveness, and gain eternal life. So maybe we should try to be more compassionate with everyone...including homosexuals.

 

[Epoisses]

Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with is it faith alone. I would have thought an educated person could have figured that out.

 

[Epoisses]

Very uncool and unnecessary, man.

And that comment about homosexuals? Remember, we are all sinners and God loves us all. He loves Christians, He loves Muslims, He loves Jews, He loves Hindus, He loves atheists, He loves agnostics, He loves thieves, He loves adulterers, He loves murderers, and yes, He loves homosexuals. What He hates in all of us is our sins.

Heaven and Hell are real and I'm not saying that everyone makes it to Heaven. But God loves us all and any person can reach a point in their lives where they repent of their sins, accept Christ, and obtain forgiveness of their sins and gain eternal life. So maybe we should try to be more compassionate with everyone...including homosexuals.

Read Romans 1 to find out God's opinion on homosexuality. Homosexuals are reprobate which means they are cast off or given up by God to their vile affections. It is an outward sign of a willful sinner like Sodom and Gomorrah. I bet you were the first one to clap when Obama lit up the white house in rainbow colors.

 

[Robert Pate]

Hey Epoisses,

So I guess it is clear that your comment "Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it." cannot be found in Scripture. That's ok.



I would like to know where this statement can be found in Scripture as well, but no need to continue this way...we both know it is not there either.



I am gonna go ahead and take another break from TOL for awhile. I do not wish to continue a discussion with you at this time and Robert won't answer my questions and it was his prompt that I was originally responding to anyway. So it is a good time for me to leave.

I am disappointed that you have dropped down into name-calling of Ben (in your post #48) and your condescending tone with Jamie and accusing her of having no faith (in your post #49).

Very uncool and unnecessary, man.

And that comment about homosexuals? Remember, we are all sinners and God loves us all. He loves Christians, He loves Muslims, He loves Jews, He loves Hindus, He loves atheists, He loves agnostics, He loves thieves, He loves adulterers, He loves murderers, and yes, He loves homosexuals. What He hates in all of us is our sins.

Heaven and Hell are real and I'm not saying that everyone makes it to Heaven. But God loves us all and any person can reach a point in their lives where they repent of their sins, accept Christ, obtain forgiveness, and gain eternal life. So maybe we should try to be more compassionate with everyone...including homosexuals.

If you go to heaven it will have to be on the merits of Jesus Christ. Jesus acting in your name and on your behalf is the only thing that God is going to accept.

 

[beloved57]

nanja

Pate, you will be held accountable for every word of blasphemy spewed from your wicked heart against the True God!

Matt 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 

[beloved57]

If you go to heaven it will have to be on the merits of Jesus Christ. Jesus acting in your name and on your behalf is the only thing that God is going to accept.

You teach that millions upon millions whom Christ lived and died for wind up in hell for their sins ! That rendered Christ's Life and Death for them a failure !

 

[Bright Raven]

nanja



Matt 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I see Pate speaking against Calvinism, not God.

 

[beloved57]

jamie

Works of the law are things the law required such as Deuteronomy 16:16.

Yeah like Faith Matt 23:23

²³ Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The word ought is the greek word dei and means:

1. it is necessary, there is need of, it behooves, is right and proper
   
   1. necessity lying in the nature of the case
      
   2. necessity brought on by circumstances or by the conduct of others toward us.
      
   3. necessity in reference to what is required to attain some end
      
   4. a necessity of law and command, of duty, equity
      
      Faith is a required work of the law that ought to be done !

 

[Epoisses]

You teach that millions upon millions whom Christ lived and died for wind up in hell for their sins ! That rendered Christ's Life and Death for them a failure !

No his death for them was in vain. They were actually saved 'in Christ' but because of their unbelief and rejection of him they die in their sins.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:29

 

[beloved57]

No his death for them was in vain. They were actually saved 'in Christ' but because of their unbelief and rejection of him they die in their sins.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:29

You believe in a different jesus from the Jesus l know and believe in.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

 

[Epoisses]

You believe in a different jesus from the Jesus l know and believe in.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

The Jesus you call Jesus is really baal. You're a high priest of baal and will suffer the same fate as your forebears.

 

[beloved57]

The Jesus you call Jesus is really baal. You're a high priest of baal and will suffer the same fate as your forebears.

You teach another jesus, from the figment of your darkened understanding.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk