Why Christians DON'T need Rules, Laws, Works, Religion, Predestination, etc.

[Ben Masada]

Isn't Romans 1:18, 19. speaking to believers exclusively?

Anyways I keep hearing people say we have to do this or that and here I am thinking how? Jesus told us that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We really have to rely on Christ for everything.

I see people who tell us to keep the law like telling someone whos paralytic to run across the room

So, we really have to rely on the "Christ" of Paul for every thing! And then what, become a robot? That's exactly what the Lord did not expect of us with Genesis 1:26. Some self-responsibility was His purpose for man. So much so that He inspired Prophet Jeremiah to teach in 31:30 that no one is supposed to become liable for any one else.

 

[Ben Masada]

Isn't Romans 1:18, 19. speaking to believers exclusively?

Anyways I keep hearing people say we have to do this or that and here I am thinking how? Jesus told us that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We really have to rely on Christ for everything.

I see people who tell us to keep the law like telling someone whos paralytic to run across the room

Jesus also said that we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law.(Luke 16:29-31) Why not rely on Jesus'
word and do what he commanded to?

 

[Ben Masada]

Of course you are wrong. If God chose "Some Certain Persons" to be saved before the foundation of the world and damned the rest to hell, then you have an unmerciful, unjust, unrighteous God that is a tyrant. It is not humanly possible to have faith in that kind of a God. You not only have a false God, you have false faith.

As for Ephesians 1:4-5. God has chosen ALL OF HUMANITY in his Son Jesus Christ. God sees everything in his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. As far as God is concerned the whole world has been reconciled unto him by his Son Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. But nothing is yours if you don't receive it by faith.

You have rejected God's great free gift of salvation and are trusting in a false doctrine to save you.

Nothing can be ours if we expect to achieve it by faith. Jesus himself said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law to achieve salvation from hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31) You have rejected the free gift of salvation through obedience of God's Law and that's the whole truth.

 

[Nanja]

God elected the world to be saved through Christ Jesus though.

Yeah, and that World is a Justified World, freed from sin John 8:36 because no sins were ever charged to them in That Elect World Rom. 8:33, but were charged to their Surety Christ Jesus Heb. 7:22 instead of them, thus they are a Blessed World Rom. 4:6-8, for God's Wrath has been propitiated on their behalf 1 John 4:10!

2 Cor. 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom. 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



And then there's another world, consisting of those who were already condemned and shall permanently remain under God's Wrath because God holds them accountable for their sins against His Law John 3:18, 36. They never had their sins laid to Christ's charge, so God's Wrath for them was never appeased, and their unbelief is the evidence of being condemned already.

~~~~~

 

[Robert Pate]

Yeah, and that World is a Justified World, freed from sin John 8:36 because no sins were ever charged to them in That Elect World Rom. 8:33, but were charged to their Surety Christ Jesus Heb. 7:22 instead of them, thus they are a Blessed World Rom. 4:6-8, for God's Wrath has been propitiated on their behalf 1 John 4:10!

2 Cor. 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom. 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



And then there's another world, consisting of those who were already condemned and shall permanently remain under God's Wrath because God holds them accountable for their sins against His Law John 3:18, 36. They never had their sins laid to Christ's charge, so God's Wrath for them was never appeased, and their unbelief is the evidence of being condemned already.

~~~~~

It is not possible to have saving faith and believe in Calvinism.

You will perish right along with your false Calvinist God.

 

[Robert Pate]

Really? Was that the reason for the Jerusalem conference? Did the apostles and elders need to remind everyone that there was no law for Jews or Gentiles?

Robert, surely you can do better. Put some effort into it.

:sigh:

You would not believe even if one rose from the dead and told you.

 

[Robert Pate]

Hey Robert.

When you say that Jesus abolished the law...what does that exactly entail? Do you mean He abolished all rules, laws, regulations, etc. including those found in the 10 commandments? And including those that He taught to His followers while He was here on earth?



I don't see anything in Colossians 2 that says being "in Christ" makes us "spiritually perfect and complete". May I ask what translation you see that in? The ones I am looking at say we have "fullness" of life in Him.



Yes, I do. That's why I try to read my bible. I want to be told how to live my life in a way that is pleasing to God. If I admit that I need those instructions...then maybe I am not "In Christ"? Really?

Are you saying that it would be better for me if I didn't read my Bible? What would you say is the purpose of reading a Bible?



May I ask...do you read your bible? Why or why not?

I asked a few questions in my first post and I don't think you have really taken the time to answer them.

Could I just ask one here and ask you to answer it please?

In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus says that IF we forgive others, the Father will forgive us. But IF WE DON'T forgive others, the Father won't forgive us either.

Would you say that that still applies to us today or is that something that you would say only applies to those living "under the law"?

Thank you for your thoughts.

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Isn't that enough for you? You can't lead a life pleasing to God because you are a sinner, Romans 3:10. The KJV says that we are complete in Christ. You can't make yourself complete in Christ because you are a sinner, Romans 3:23. Nor can you obey the commandments. Give up your holiness doctrine and trust in Christ alone.

 

[Nanja]

It is not possible to have saving faith and believe in Calvinism.

The only Faith that Saves is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal. 5:22 given to all the Election of Grace when they are Born Again!

You don't believe in the True God! You will perish right along with your false Calvinist God.

Pate, you will be held accountable for every word of blasphemy spewed from your wicked heart against the True God!

~~~~~

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. Isn't that enough for you?

Love it! Yes I do! Thanks be to God!

And what do you mean "isn't that enough for me"? Are you saying that Christ's teachings found in the Bible are irrelevant? That I don't need those? What I would like as a follower of Jesus Christ is to know and live everything that He wants me to....not just some parts of it.

You can't lead a life pleasing to God because you are a sinner, Romans 3:10.

I think Paul disagrees with you: "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus." (1 Thess. 4:1-2)

Paul seems to be telling the Thessalonians that he has taught them what Jesus said to so they can walk (live their lives) in a way that pleases God.

You can't make yourself complete in Christ because you are a sinner, Romans 3:23.

Ok, I see now that the KJV says "complete". "Spiritual perfection" would be your interpretation of that, I guess. Ok.

Oh, I agree absolutely that I can't make myself complete. Only Christ can.

Nor can you obey the commandments.

Would you mind explaining to me what the following passages are saying then?:

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17)

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:" (John 14:21)

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor. 7:19

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him." (1 John 3:24)

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (1 John 5:2)

Give up your holiness doctrine

I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean I should ignore the scripture verses just above? I don't think that would be wise.

and trust in Christ alone.

I am trying to.

And going all the way back to your first post, it looks like Christ established rules, laws, and works for us to obey.

You said Christians do not need those.

I will follow your advice, and trust in Christ.


God bless.

 

[Epoisses]

Really? Was that the reason for the Jerusalem conference? Did the apostles and elders need to remind everyone that there was no law for Jews or Gentiles?

Robert, surely you can do better. Put some effort into it.

:sigh:

She's all about the effort! Work, work, work, and do, do, do!

 

[Robert Pate]

Love it! Yes I do! Thanks be to God!

And what do you mean "isn't that enough for me"? Are you saying that Christ's teachings found in the Bible are irrelevant? That I don't need those? What I would like as a follower of Jesus Christ is to know and live everything that He wants me to....not just some parts of it.



I think Paul disagrees with you: "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus." (1 Thess. 4:1-2)

Paul seems to be telling the Thessalonians that he has taught them what Jesus said to so they can walk (live their lives) in a way that pleases God.




Ok, I see now that the KJV says "complete". "Spiritual perfection" would be your interpretation of that, I guess. Ok.

Oh, I agree absolutely that I can't make myself complete. Only Christ can.



Would you mind explaining to me what the following passages are saying then?:

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17)

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:" (John 14:21)

"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." 1 Cor. 7:19

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him." (1 John 3:24)

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." (1 John 5:2)



I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean I should ignore the scripture verses just above? I don't think that would be wise.



I am trying to.

And going all the way back to your first post, it looks like Christ established rules, laws, and works for us to obey.

You said Christians do not need those.

I will follow your advice, and trust in Christ.


God bless.

The only thing that God requires is faith in his Son Jesus Christ, plus nothing.

You don't keep the commandments. You don't even come close.

What does this scripture mean? "To him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Did you find that scripture offensive?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The only thing that God requires is faith in his Son Jesus Christ, plus nothing.

I understand that that is what you believe....but that is nowhere stated in scripture.

Does God require faith in His son Jesus? Absolutely!!! We can find verses all over the place that state the importance of having faith and belief in Jesus!!

Does God say that that is "the only thing" we need "plus nothing"? Nope. You have inserted that on your own. God never says that. Jesus never says that. The Bible never says that. That is your man-made tradition and it is not found in scripture and so should be rejected. (of course, I could be wrong and if so, please provide the scripture reference that says those things.)

If your tradition is true and all we have to do is have faith....then we don't even have to love God. Or our neighbors. Or anyone. Love is unnecessary. If God requires faith...plus nothing...we can ignore Jesus when He says that the greatest commandment is to love. Does that make sense to you? To ignore the Jesus that you keep saying we are supposed to trust?

Also, Paul says: "and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." (1 Cor. 13:2)

Did you catch what he said there? Faith without love....is NOTHING.

That is in direct contradiction with your belief that we need faith "plus nothing".

What does this scripture mean? "To him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Well, let's be a little bit fair here. In my last post I asked you what several verses meant. You haven't answered me but now you are asking me what verses mean? How about you show a little give and take and actually respond to something that I have asked first? You have been avoiding answering many of my questions. Why?

Did you find that scripture offensive?

Not at all.

Probably gonna have to wrap up this conversation, Robert because I don't feel like you are really wanting to engage in dialogue.

It seems like your brand of Christianity is "trust in Jesus" but in a very vague way. It doesn't seem to want to actually listen to the words Jesus says in the Bible (like those found in Matt. 6:14 and elsewhere). Your unwillingness to discuss verses that do not fit with your "we don't need rules" mentality seems like a very "truncated" form of Christianity. It's like..."I'm gonna take out the parts I like...and discard the rest."

This is my last post to you in this conversation unless you answer this one teeny tiny little easy peasy question:

If Heaven is real and I want to get there, do I have to have my sins forgiven by God? (I'll accept yes or no.)

Thanks.

Peace.

 

[Epoisses]

Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it. Luther was the one who coined the phrase 'by faith alone' and it started a revolution. When you realize that you are a sinner (most people do not truly see themselves as sinners) and trust in Christ then he gives you the Spirit. Living by faith alone means Christ is living out his life in you and that is what real obedience is all about. Faith alone produces works that are acceptable to God because he is the one doing them thru you.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it.

Ok. Can you show me where that statement is found in Scripture? I don't know my bible as well as I should and I don't recall ever reading that. It sounds like something Paul could've written, maybe. Did he write that somewhere? Thanks.

I would be interested to see how the verse (or verses) that teach that can be squared with 1 Cor. 13: "and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

You seem to be saying that if a person has Faith, they will automatically have love as well.

Paul seems to be saying that a person can have tons of Faith, enough even to move mountains, but that person can also not have love... and it is nothing.

Living by faith alone means Christ is living out his life in you and that is what real obedience is all about.

Faith alone produces works that are acceptable to God because he is the one doing them thru you.

Ok. Can you show me where those statements can be found in the bible please? I don't recall ever reading those either.

Thanks.

 

[Epoisses]

So if you reject faith alone then that must mean we are saved by a combination of faith and works? Would this be correct?

 

[Epoisses]

You seem to be saying that if a person has Faith, they will automatically have love as well.

Paul seems to be saying that a person can have tons of Faith, enough even to move mountains, but that person can also not have love... and it is nothing.

Paul was driving home the point that love is above faith where the 1st chapter of Romans speaks of the just living by faith.

The Christian is to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God not pit one bible verse against another like a noob.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

So if you reject faith alone then that must mean we are saved by a combination of faith and works? Would this be correct?

Did I say that? I don't remember saying that.

I remember asking you where this statement of yours can be found in Scripture:

"Faith plus nothing brings all other blessings with it."

Well?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Paul was driving home the point that love is above faith where the 1st chapter of Romans speaks of the just living by faith.

I agree. But is that all he was doing? The passage seems pretty clear that he is also saying that if a person has incredible faith (enough to move mountains), but does not have love with it, it amounts to nothing.

The Christian is to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God not pit one bible verse against another like a noob.

Ok. We are discussing the Bible. I don't see anyone pitting verses against each other. I don't know what you mean by that.

And I don't know what a "noob" is and I'm not going to look it up. Sounds insulting, though.

And if you believe that the Christian is to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, do we have to live by these following examples of the word of God?:

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matt. 6:14)

"He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21)

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3)

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments." (1 John 5:3)

"He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;" (1 John 2:4)


Recall that Robert started this discussion by claiming that Christians do not need "rules, laws, works..." etc.

I responded because I wanted to know what he meant by that because it seems like Jesus left His followers with some rules, laws, works, etc. to follow and to do.

Peace.

 

[Ben Masada]

So if you reject faith alone then that must mean we are saved by a combination of faith and works? Would this be correct?

Well, it is the closest you have achieved of the Truth so far. Faith alone, without the works of the Law is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Well, it is the closest you have achieved of the Truth so far. Faith alone, without the works of the Law is as dead as a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26)

Hi Ben.

Just to clarify something. James 2:26 doesn't say "works of the Law" that I know of.

James 2:17 says something similar: "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

But neither one says "works of the Law". Every time the Bible mentions "works" it doesn't always mean "works of the Law" and I don't think that is what James is referring to here.

But that could be another whole discussion, I suppose.

Here's one more example of "works" being used but it isn't referring to "works of the Law".

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

Peace.