ECT Who is saved?

[DAN P]

I thought we were going to start at the beginning , when we do not have the Holy Spirit yet ?

Your jumping right into how we "get" the holy Spirit . Your kind of all over the place for me to have a discussion about this with you , i think i'll pass and put the offer out for others to respond to. Thanks for the reply though.

Anyone else want to take this journey , the Salvation journey ? It starts by answering # 37 .

Hi and you are not understanding what 1 Cor 12:3 is saying that NO ONE is ABLE /DYNAMAI a verb in the PRESENT TENSE to SAY in the AORIST TENSE IS looking back to Acts 9:6 when Paul says , Lord what do you wish me to do , was given the Holy Spirit at that point in time !!

You will never learn by backing away , so happy trails to you !!

dan p

 

[Faither]

Hi and you are not understanding what 1 Cor 12:3 is saying that NO ONE is ABLE /DYNAMAI a verb in the PRESENT TENSE to SAY in the AORIST TENSE IS looking back to Acts 9:6 when Paul says , Lord what do you wish me to do , was given the Holy Spirit at that point in time !!

You will never learn by backing away , so happy trails to you !!

dan p

I just don't understand what your trying to say in regards to the topic .

I consider myself pretty good at understanding what people are talking about and where there coming from , i just don't understand either one of those in your responses. I really wish you would teach me a better understanding of Christ , ultimately thats what makes me happy.

I'll take the blame for not understanding you , unless you want to give it another try.

My point of starting at the beginning of the Salvation journey was so we could easily agree that 1) We don't have the Holy Spirit yet. 2) There fore Christ is not ours yet. 3) And since Christ is not ours yet , His Word and the promises there in can't be ours yet either.

i thought that would be a good starting point , but you reply by breaking the agreement and quote scriptures that i thought we agreed would not be ours to claim yet?

Can you see where i went wrong?

 

[DAN P]

I just don't understand what your trying to say in regards to the topic .

I consider myself pretty good at understanding what people are talking about and where there coming from , i just don't understand either one of those in your responses. I really wish you would teach me a better understanding of Christ , ultimately thats what makes me happy.

I'll take the blame for not understanding you , unless you want to give it another try.

My point of starting at the beginning of the Salvation journey was so we could easily agree that 1) We don't have the Holy Spirit yet. 2) There fore Christ is not ours yet. 3) And since Christ is not ours yet , His Word and the promises there in can't be ours yet either.

i thought that would be a good starting point , but you reply by breaking the agreement and quote scriptures that i thought we agreed would not be ours to claim yet?

Can you see where i went wrong?

Hi and where I believe salvation begins is :

#1 , One has to be being preached to , Rom 10:14 !!

#2 , God has to open the HEART !! Acts 16:14 !!

#3 , Then Christ give the GIFT of FAITH , in Eph 2:8 !!

#4 Eph 2:8 says that , For by GRACE you are having been SAVED / SOZO which is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE AND A PARTICIPLE !

#5 The Participle is the the word HAVING as all ing words are Participles !!

#6 The PASSIVE VOICE means it is God who saved us !!

#7 The Greek word SAVED / SOZO that when all have been saved are always saved !!

#8 Then Rom 10:9 comes into play " and SHOULD BELIEVE is in teh SUBJUCTIVE MOOD and this mood is controlled by this verse as not ALL will believe in there heart !!

Faith produces many responses , THROUGH FAITH he kept the Passover and the Sprinkling of BLOOD , so FAITH means that Moses had confidence that the SPRINKLING of blood word saved him !!

Read Heb 11:1-40 and see what faith produces !!

dan p

dan p

 

[Faither]

Hi and where I believe salvation begins is :

#1 , One has to be being preached to , Rom 10:14 !!

#2 , God has to open the HEART !!

#3 , Then Christ give the GIFT of FAITH , in Eph 2:8 !!

#4 Eph 2:8 says that , For by GRACE you are having been SAVED / SOZO which is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE AND A PARTICIPLE !

#5 The Participle is the the word HAVING as all ing words are Participles !!

#6 The PASSIVE VOICE means it is God who saved us !!

#7 The Greek word SAVED / SOZO that when all have been saved are always saved !!

#8 Then Rom 10:9 comes into play " and SHOULD BELIEVE is in teh SUBJUCTIVE MOOD and this mood is controlled by this verse as not ALL will believe in there heart !!

Faith produces many responses , THROUGH FAITH he kept the Passover and the Sprinkling of BLOOD , so FAITH means that Moses had confidence that the SPRINKLING of blood word saved him !!

Read Heb 11:1-40 and see what faith produces !!

dan p

dan p

Ok dan i think i've found a place to try and make my point.

You said that the first think that must happen at the start of the Salvation journey is "one has to be preached to."

Gods word didn't even start to be put together until around the 15th century. And the majority of the world would never have had the chance to hear Gods Word being preached . So are you saying most of the world had no path to Salvation ?

The point i'm trying to make is that true Faith "pisteuo' could not only start the relationship today with anyone God calls out , but with anyone at any time in history , even without Gods word. And i say this because true Faith or pisteuo is "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender" , people through out history would not need Gods Word to do that.

Make sense. The understanding of Faith or pisteuo the church world stands on today would not have worked before the 1500's. And i put the blame on the mistrnalation of pisteuo.

 

[Danoh]

Hi and where I believe salvation begins is :

#1 , One has to be being preached to , Rom 10:14 !!

#2 , God has to open the HEART !! Acts 16:14 !!

#3 , Then Christ give the GIFT of FAITH , in Eph 2:8 !!

#4 Eph 2:8 says that , For by GRACE you are having been SAVED / SOZO which is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE AND A PARTICIPLE !

#5 The Participle is the the word HAVING as all ing words are Participles !!

#6 The PASSIVE VOICE means it is God who saved us !!

#7 The Greek word SAVED / SOZO that when all have been saved are always saved !!

#8 Then Rom 10:9 comes into play " and SHOULD BELIEVE is in teh SUBJUCTIVE MOOD and this mood is controlled by this verse as not ALL will believe in there heart !!

Faith produces many responses , THROUGH FAITH he kept the Passover and the Sprinkling of BLOOD , so FAITH means that Moses had confidence that the SPRINKLING of blood word saved him !!

Read Heb 11:1-40 and see what faith produces !!

dan p

dan p

Must be why Paul told the Philippian jailor, not "wait to be gifted with faith so you can believe" but simply "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Too many steps in your "gospel" DP.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Just as the obvious fact that there is no ability to properly surrender until after one has believed.

Believed what?

Believe Rom. 5:8.

One - simple - step - of - faith.

Matthew 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

How's that for a definition of "faith" - "as a grain of a mustard seed."

Note: Though setting of that passage is Dispensational, its principle is not.

 

[oatmeal]

Those who have trusted the Lord for salvation after hearing and believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV.

Gifts are not conditional. They are received.

Ok, how do you receive a birthday gift to you?

Please tell me the conditions you must meet to receive a birthday gift.

Rather than explain what I mean in a later post, I will elaborate right here and now

Some conditions for receiving a birthday gift:

1. You must have been conceived and born, if you were never conceived and never born alive, you would have a birthday to celebrate

2. You must be alive at the time of the birthday gift being available to receive

3. There must be a birthday gift to receive

a. Some one remembered your birthday

b. someone cared enough to buy you a gift

c. someone considered what to purchase for you

d. Someone took the time and effort to present that present to you.

4. You must be present at the time of the presentation of that present

5. You must be able to receive it, ie, maybe hold out one or both hands so you can grasp that gift to you.

Even as there are conditions to meet to receive anything in the physical world, even so, there are conditions to met if we are to receive anything spiritual from God.

Mark 9:23

If you can BELIEVE, all things are possible to them who BELIEVES

Believing is one condition for receiving the gift of salvation.

Romans 10:9-10

The other condition is to believe that Jesus is lord and thus confess it with your mouth

See, two conditions

If you do not meet those two conditions you do not receive salvation

If you have met those two conditions, you are saved, you have received the gift of salvation

 

[oatmeal]

That's not the formula of our salvation. This is:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I don't believe you would be arguing with me unless you simply wanted to find a way to put your own two cents into this thread.

Well, here you are so let us discuss this.

A formula?

Please define formula

Oh, how about the process and ingredients needed to achieve a goal or end result?

What conditions are necessary for that formula to work?

Say you make a cake. You do everything necessary to have a cake,ie, you meet all the conditions to have a cake but you miss one, you forget to turn on the oven. One of the conditions to making a cake is to have the proper amount of heat to bake the cake batter. Cake batter is not cake, it is batter.

One of the conditions required for someone to believe is to hear the word of truth so that they can believe the word of truth.

Formulas and conditions go hand in hand, and in some senses they are synonomous

 

[oatmeal]

Here we are at the start of the Salvation journey. 1) The first thing that must happen is we must be called or drawn to Christ by the Father .

2) At this beginning stage we are described by Rom 8:9 , where we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed into us yet , so Christ and His Word are not ours yet.

Are you in agreement so far ? Anyone ?

Do you have any scripture to support your first claim?

For that matter, many people hear the word of truth, but not all choose to believe it.

People are drawn by hearing and hearing the word of truth. Romans 10:17

Then, if they choose to meet the conditions in Romans 10:9, then they receive the gift of salvation

That gift of salvation is called by various names in scripture. Born again of incorruptible seed, I Peter 1:23, the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38, gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23, the measure of faith, Romans 12:3, etc.

Those with the spirit are those who are saved

Those who believe to utilize that gift of spirit are those who are learning or have learned what it is to be spiritually minded

 

[turbosixx]

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who is saved?

What are the conditions that must be met to receive the gift of salvation?

From Jesus Lord and Savior himself:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[oatmeal]

From Jesus Lord and Savior himself:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Great verse on making disciples.

However, this thread is not about making disciples, it is about "who is saved?"

In this age of grace, Romans 10:9-10 informs us on what a person must do to receive salvation.

Until a person is saved, being a disciple is a non issue.

For until a person confesses with the mouth the lord Jesus and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, they are not going to be able to be a disciple of the lord Jesus or obedient to the God that raised him from the dead.

 

[turbosixx]

Great verse on making disciples.

However, this thread is not about making disciples it is about "who is saved?"

In this age of grace, Romans 10:9-10 informs us on what a person must do to receive salvation.

Until a person is saved, being a disciple is a non issue.

For until a person confesses with the mouth the lord Jesus and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, they are not going to be able to be a disciple of the lord Jesus or obedient to the God that raises him from the dead.

I would suggest to you that Rom. 10:9-10 is taken out of context and ignores scripture on how people become Christians (saved). Paul is writing to people who are already Christians and is clearing up some misunderstandings. Your not saved if your not a Christian.

Would it be wiser to become a Christian as Jesus commanded and what we see the apostles teaching and by the examples, in the bible, of people becoming Christians verses what is pulled out of context and is promoted on how to become a Christian?

 

[oatmeal]

I would suggest to you that Rom. 10:9-10 is taken out of context and ignores scripture on how people become Christians (saved). Paul is writing to people who are already Christians and is clearing up some misunderstandings. Your not saved if your not a Christian.

Would it be wiser to become a Christian as Jesus commanded and what we see the apostles teaching and by the examples, in the bible, of people becoming Christians verses what is pulled out of context and is promoted on how to become a Christian?

Indeed, Romans for the most part, for the most part is written to believers, ie, those who are already Christians, but I will attend to that later.

Well, Romans 10:9-10 fits perfectly in the context

It is nestled between Romans 1:1-10:8 and Romans 10:11-16:27 and that is nestled perfectly between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21

Though we must understand the basics of God's word, we must not neglect the details of God's word if we are to really understand what is said and to whom it is said.

Details such as who is God talking to?

In Romans 9 we read that God is revealing in Paul's writing truths about Israel.

Romans 9:3-4

In this context God is referring to Israel, those who are Paul's brethren according to the flesh. But as we know not all Israel believed, though they be children of Israel.

Then we read in Romans 11:13 God turns to speaking to Gentiles

Romans 9-11 are speaking to two groups of people out of the three major groups of people according to God's three major categories.

I Corinthians 10:32

God classifies all men into one of three categories, Jews, Gentiles and the church of God.

The Jews, or more precisely, Judeans and Gentiles are not in the church of God.

If they want to become a member in particular in the church of God, the body of Christ, they must get saved.

How does a person get saved?

Romans 10:9

1. Confess with the mouth the lord Jesus

2. Believe in the heart that God raised him from the dead

That is how a Judean or Gentile receives salvation

Nothing more, nothing less

 

[turbosixx]

In Romans 9 we read that God is revealing in Paul's writing truths about Israel.

I agree. He continues the thought into 10.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The Jews were having trouble letting go of following the law. That's his point in Romans, the law verses faith. In ch. 10 he's contrasting the law with the word. He's saying the word is in your heart and in your mouth.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
He's telling them the word is what saves you, not the law of Moses.

The Jews, or more precisely, Judeans and Gentiles are not in the church of God.

I agree, you're either a Christian or not.

How does a person get saved?

Romans 10:9

1. Confess with the mouth the lord Jesus

2. Believe in the heart that God raised him from the dead

That is how a Judean or Gentile receives salvation

Nothing more, nothing less

I would strongly suggest this is not what we see people in the bible did to be saved. It ignores the facts of what Jesus commanded and what the apostles taught and did to make Christians. We have about 12 examples of conversion in scripture. What do they show the people were taught and did to become Christians?

Also, Paul doesn't mention baptism in ch. 10 because he already covered the Romans being baptized into Christ in ch. 6.
6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

 

[God's Truth]

Romans 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Who is saved?

What are the conditions that must be met to receive the gift of salvation?

Jesus saves those he is pleased to save, those who do right. Those are the ones Jesus accepts.

Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

John 18:37 Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus saves those he accepts, see Acts 15:8.

 

[God's Truth]

That is exactly it. No more, no less

All those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, they must do what the Lord says when they say that.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

 

[oatmeal]

I agree. He continues the thought into 10.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The Jews were having trouble letting go of following the law. That's his point in Romans, the law verses faith. In ch. 10 he's contrasting the law with the word. He's saying the word is in your heart and in your mouth.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
He's telling them the word is what saves you, not the law of Moses.





I agree.





I would strongly suggest this is not what we see people in the bible did to be saved. It ignores the facts of what Jesus commanded and what the apostles taught and did to make Christians. We have about 12 examples of conversion in scripture. What do they show the people were taught and did to become Christians?

Also, Paul doesn't mention baptism in ch. 10 because he already covered the Romans being baptized into Christ in ch. 6.
6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Well, I am glad we see eye to eye on much of what we have shared.

When we look at Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, the first sermon in the Christian church we see both elements being taught.

Both elements being

1. Jesus is lord

2. God raised him from the dead

and of course, other topics as well, but the main thrust of his words (after dismissing the accusation of being drunk) center on those two elements

That is a central theme of the preaching and teaching throughout the book of Acts

Regarding baptism, Acts 2:38 tells us what the norm for baptism is in Acts 2:38. It is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. It is what Jesus Christ did for us that cleanses us.

What Jesus Christ did in obedience to God in order to pay for our salvation is what we are baptized in.

Being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is simply another way of describing our salvation

 

[oatmeal]

All those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord, they must do what the Lord says when they say that.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Please see my post #25

 

[oatmeal]

Jesus saves those he is pleased to save, those who do right. Those are the ones Jesus accepts.

Acts 10:35 but that in every nation those who fear Him and live good lives are acceptable to Him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 13:26 "Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

John 18:37 Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Jesus saves those he accepts, see Acts 15:8.

He is pleased to save those who

1. Confess with the mouth the lord Jesus

2. Believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead

 

[turbosixx]

Regarding baptism, Acts 2:38 tells us what the norm for baptism is in Acts 2:38. It is baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

I would suggest to you this is the key to becoming a Christian, being baptized in the name of Jesus.


I would politely suggest by this comment, you're creating a contradiction.
You say to be saved:
1. Confess with the mouth the lord Jesus
2. Believe in the heart that God raised him from the dead

Nothing more, nothing less


Jesus said:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

For your own understanding, look at examples of conversions in scripture and see which pattern the people followed going from being lost to becoming a Christian.

 

[oatmeal]

I agree. He continues the thought into 10.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The Jews were having trouble letting go of following the law. That's his point in Romans, the law verses faith. In ch. 10 he's contrasting the law with the word. He's saying the word is in your heart and in your mouth.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
He's telling them the word is what saves you, not the law of Moses.





I agree, you're either a Christian or not.





I would strongly suggest this is not what we see people in the bible did to be saved. It ignores the facts of what Jesus commanded and what the apostles taught and did to make Christians. We have about 12 examples of conversion in scripture. What do they show the people were taught and did to become Christians?

Also, Paul doesn't mention baptism in ch. 10 because he already covered the Romans being baptized into Christ in ch. 6.
6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

If indeed confessing with the mouth the lord Jesus and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead is not the how of being saved, then why did God have it written down?

Why then did God make it so plain?

Why then was the emphasis of Peter's sermon both of those truths?

Being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ is first spiritual in nature.

It is to be born again of God's spirit. It is another attribute or reference to salvation

It does not involve water or any other ritual, it is a spiritual event that God does to those who repent, that is, have a change of heart.

Change of heart? From what to what? From them being lord in their lives to Jesus Christ becoming lord in their lives, from not believing in the power of God that raised him from the dead, to believing in their hearts that God did raise him from the dead.

What Jesus commanded to his disciples in the gospel period has limited application to those of us who live in this age of grace.

We must be careful to not put ourselves under the law. In the gospel period, they lived under the law even as Jesus Christ was fulfilling it.

Once Jesus Christ works were finished even to being taken up and seated at the right hand of God, then we come to the day of Pentecost when the finished product of Jesus Christ's works could be revealed.

But it was not all revealed on the day of Pentecost, it would take decades for believers to rise up and learn what God had to teach them and reveal to them.

Thus we see in Romans 6:3 Paul is writing to Christians, he is telling them about the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and telling them about it.

When they were born again, it was a spiritual new birth. This is the wonderful news! They now could identify with Christ not only in death but in being raised from the death.

Thus Paul could write to believers that even as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4

Thus our baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is not only incredibly meaningful, but incredible in what it makes available to us!

But it all started for the unbeliever when they did two things to get saved.

1. Confessed with the mouth the lord Jesus

2. Believed in their heart that God raised him from the dead

Acts 4:33

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

There we see again the two elements of Romans 10:9

Acts 8:5 Philip preached Christ unto them. If you were to preach Christ would you include the truths that Jesus is lord and that God raised him from the dead?

I would, and I would want to follow what the apostles did, "with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus"