Who Hates Academic Freedom?

6days

New member
So 4Days withdraws ...What is Evo-Devo?

You fabricated a quote attributing it to me....... Was it a mistake? or another example of your dishonesty? Are you like Hackle who was so desperate for people to believe in evolution that he lied?

Deal with that..... then we can perhaps discuss if "evo devo" should be discussed in classrooms
 

The Barbarian

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Banned
Sorry, you had your chance to justify it. Learn from it, and move on.

As you see, Haeckel's drawings have been removed from textbook, replaced by actual photographs which show the very same things. I understand the dismay, but there it is.

Haeckel was wrong about recapitulation; we don't become fish at some point in our development. But he was quite right about the same things (like pharyngeal arches) forming different things in different organisms. We now know the genetics of such changes, and they confirm the predictions of evolutionary theory.

I urge you to learn a little about evolutionary development to see how this is so.

Could bring you some peace on this issue. Worth a try.
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
6days said:
You fabricated a quote attributing it to me....... Was it a mistake? or another example of your dishonesty?
Sorry, you had your chance to justify it. Learn from it, and move on.
Justify it?? I can't justify you but I certainly can forgive you if you would like.*
 

The Barbarian

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Banned
I think everyone would be happy if you stopped obsessing about the evil Barbarian, and actually addressed the issue.

Go figure.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
I think everyone would be happy if you stopped obsessing about the evil Barbarian, and actually addressed the issue.

Go figure.

You could start by explaining why actual photographs show the same things Haeckel drew.

(Barbarian considers)

Yeah, I can see why you'd want to avoid that...
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
I think ...
Ok.....so think about why you fabricated a quote.....then apologize.....then we can go out for burgers and discuss why students should discuss Haeckle's fraud.

If you can't apologize for your own fraud though.... its impossible for you to honestly condemn Haeckles fraud.

Reminder.....this was what I earlier posted. ..
"hahaha.. You are pathetically dishonest.
So So FUNNY
You showed a statement as is I made it ("They aren't the same thing any longer")... But that was YOUR words, (Post 57) which you now proceded to argue with.
"
 

The Barbarian

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Banned
Here's another problem for your new beliefs:

Evolution and development of the building plan of the vertebrate heart
Volume 1833, Issue 4, April 2013, Pages 783–794
Abstract

Early cardiac development involves the formation of a heart tube, looping of the tube and formation of chambers. These processes are highly similar among all vertebrates, which suggest the existence of evolutionary conservation of the building plan of the heart. From the jawless lampreys to man, T-box transcription factors like Tbx5 and Tbx20 are fundamental for heart formation, whereas Tbx2 and Tbx3 repress chamber formation on the sinu-atrial and atrioventricular borders. Also, electrocardiograms from different vertebrates are alike, even though the fish heart only has two chambers whereas the mammalian heart has four chambers divided by septa and in addition has much higher heart rates. We conclude that most features of the high-performance hearts of mammals and birds can be traced back to less developed traits in the hearts of ectothermic vertebrates. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled: Cardiomyocyte biology: Cardiac pathways of differentiation, metabolism and contraction.


That these happen in all vertebrates makes no sense at all from a creationist perspective. Hearts are very different in the adult form. But as you learned earlier, they are quite similar in utero, due to the evolutionary history of the genes which determine them, and which are the same in all vertebrates.

Let me guess... "common design" is the excuse, right? Yet these things which are the same in utero, are quite different things in adult vertebrates. Why would a "designer" fit us out with a two-chambered heart, it we need a four-chambered one? Why not build it right the first time, instead of starting it "wrong" and then fixing it later?

Maybe it's time to let go of your perceived mistreatment, and deal with the problems in your beliefs. So more dodging, or are you going to face up to it?
 

6days

New member
What an amazing Creator!

What an amazing Creator!

Hey kids... Did you know that our heart beats 100,000 times a day,
pumping blood through about 2500 KM of blood vessels. Can you imagine?
The heart sends oxygen and nutrients through all those blood vessels to our extremities .... and at the same time is removing waste products such as carbon dioxide.
There are some amazing engineering feats happening
1. There are actually two circuits of blood vessels.
a) The first circuit of blood vessels takes blood from the body to the lungs, so oxygen can be added, and carbon dioxide removed.
b) The second circuit takes the oxygen rich blood out to all your body parts.
But how does one heart pump in 2 different directions? This is accomplished because our hearts basically is two pumps within one. It is very cool how this happens in the womb, but basically there is a tube that gets kinked forming two compartments that end up functioning as two separate pumps.
2. Why doesn't the friction of a beating heart cause it to over heat? The heart is inside a 2 layered sac, the pericardium. The outer sac attaches to our diaphragm...the inner sac attaches to the heart. Inside this two layered sac is a special lubricant. Without that lubricant our heart would overheat... and we would die.
3. This is so cool..... Our hearts all have a built in pacemaker. Our heart is run by a different type of system than the rest of our body. We become tired and stop... Our senses can get tired or overwhelmed and function less efficiently (for example a putrid smell seems less offensive after a few minutes). Our hearts are not allowed that luxury though of resting. on the upper right hand side of our hearts is a cluster of cells. These cells send an electrical impulse down through the heart, stimulating the muscle. That impulse them reaches a cluster of cells at the bottom of the heart causing it to trigger a impulse upwards... (your heart has just beat once... 99,999 more times in the next 24 hours)
What I think is cool about that system, is it basically operates independently from the brain. However... the brain can overide that 'cruise control'. For example during rigorous exercise you need more blood pumping... more adrenaline etc, The brain then directly controls the heart rate.
What an amazing system! And amazing evidence of design.
 

The Barbarian

BANNED
Banned
The heart sends oxygen and nutrients through all those blood vessels to our extremities .... and at the same time is removing waste products such as carbon dioxide.
There are some amazing engineering feats happening

No engineering. Creation. By nature, as God says. Let's take a look at that system; it's a lot more wonderful than you thought.

Very early living things were sufficiently small that most of their nutrient, waste, and gas exchange were by diffusion. The Ediacaran biota, for example, showed evidence of "quilting" and other means to keep a large surface area/mass ratio.

Cnidarians and flatworms got bigger and more complex, and for them a common digestive/circulatory system was sufficient.

Arthropods have a modification of this system, where blood circulation and lymphatics are in a single system, a low pressure "hemolymph" system that bathes the internal tissues.

Annelids like earthworms have a slightly more advanced system, based on the arthropod/onychophoran model, but with pressurized blood vessels and primitive "hearts" which work sort of like the superficial blood vessels in your legs. One-way valves, and intermittent contraction, moves the blood.

In primitive chordates, there arises a problem. The circulation, which originally was adequate for smaller organisms, became less efficient with size. Since in fish, the circulation is heart to gills, to muscles, to heart, the heart receives less-oxygenated blood. Lungs were apparently one way to resolve that issue, which explains why lungs preceded land-living animals:

In primitive fish, the process involved two paths:
  • Gills to muscles to heart
  • Gills to lungs to heart
In lungfish, the splitting of the ventrical to two chambers allowed a more complete isolation, with the above modified to
  • Gills to to lungs to heart to gills
  • heart to muscle to heart.


1. There are actually two circuits of blood vessels.
a) The first circuit of blood vessels takes blood from the body to the lungs, so oxygen can be added, and carbon dioxide removed.
b) The second circuit takes the oxygen rich blood out to all your body parts.
But how does one heart pump in 2 different directions?

This existed in more primitive fish, but in a less complete way. The double circulation existed, but oxygenated and unoxygenated blood mixed in the heart, making it less efficient. With lungfish (which were not the first fish to have lungs), the ventricles were beginning to form into two chambers, partially isolating the two flows.

figure-12-16c.jpg


This is accomplished because our hearts basically is two pumps within one.

Rather, it's one pump, with two separate chambers. It pumps as one unit. It might be more efficient to have two functional pumps, but given the evolutionary history of the chordate heart, it wasn't possible.

It is very cool how this happens in the womb, but basically there is a tube that gets kinked forming two compartments that end up functioning as two separate pumps.

See above. Notice from where that comes. Cool, um? This is why we can't have 2 separate pumps. Less efficient, yes. But it works well enough, and evolution doesn't have the luxury of tossing out the original design and starting over; it has to modify what's already there.

3. This is so cool..... Our hearts all have a built in pacemaker.

The "pacemaker" is actually a population of cells in the heart. They 'vote' to determine contractions, which are coordinated by nervelike muscle cells called Perkunje fibers. Not haveing a central decision maker, the heart is vulnerable to a sudden disruption in the pattern of contraction, leading to ventricular fibulation, a pattern of uncoordinated contractions that will lead to death if not corrected.

It would have been better to have a central coordinator, which was immune to such disruption, but that wasn't an option.

And amazing evidence of design.

And now you know better.
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
6days said:
Hey kids... Did you know that our heart beats 100,000 times a day,

pumping blood through about 2500 KM of blood vessels. Can you imagine?*
The heart sends oxygen and nutrients through all those blood vessels to our extremities .... and at the same time is removing waste products such as carbon dioxide.*
There are some amazing engineering feats happening*
1. There are actually two circuits of blood vessels.
a) The first circuit of blood vessels takes blood from the body to the lungs, so oxygen can be added, and carbon dioxide removed.*
b) The second circuit takes the oxygen rich blood out to all your body parts.*
But how does one heart pump in 2 different directions? This is accomplished because our hearts basically is two pumps within one. It is very cool how this*happens in the womb, but basically there is a tube that gets kinked forming two compartments that end up functioning as two separate pumps.*
2. Why doesn't the friction of a beating heart cause it to over heat? The heart is inside a 2 layered sac, the pericardium. The outer sac attaches to our diaphragm...the inner sac attaches to the heart. Inside this two layered sac is a special lubricant. Without that lubricant our heart would overheat... and we would die.*
3. This is so cool..... Our hearts all have a built in pacemaker. Our heart is run by a different type of system than the rest of our body. We become tired and stop... Our senses can get tired or overwhelmed and function less efficiently (for example a putrid smell seems less offensive after a few minutes). Our hearts are not allowed that luxury though of resting. on the upper right hand side of our hearts is a cluster of cells. These cells send an electrical impulse down through the heart, stimulating the muscle. That impulse them reaches a cluster of cells at the bottom of the heart causing it to trigger a impulse upwards... (your heart has just beat once... 99,999 more times in the next 24 hours)*
What I think is cool about that system, is it basically operates independently from the brain. However... the brain can overide that 'cruise control'. For example during rigorous exercise you need more blood pumping... more adrenaline etc, The brain then directly controls the heart rate.*
What an amazing system! And amazing evidence of design.
No engineering. Creation. By nature, as God says. Let's take a look at that system; it's a lot more wonderful than you thought.

Very early living things were sufficiently small that most of their nutrient, waste, and gas exchange were by diffusion. The Ediacaran biota, for example, showed evidence of "quilting" and other means to keep a large surface area/mass ratio.

Cnidarians and flatworms got bigger and more complex, and for them a common digestive/circulatory system was sufficient.

Arthropods have a modification of this system, where blood circulation and lymphatics are in a single system, a low pressure "hemolymph" system that bathes the internal tissues.

Annelids like earthworms have a slightly more advanced system, based on the arthropod/onychophoran model, but with pressurized blood vessels and primitive "hearts" which work sort of like the superficial blood vessels in your legs. One-way valves, and intermittent contraction, moves the blood....
....
Sure.... students can be taught the amazing deaign of our heart..... and you can share your just so stories about worm evolution.*

Now that problem is solved.... but you still haven't explained why you fabricated a quote?
 
Last edited:

The Barbarian

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Banned
Sure.... students can be taught the amazing deaign of our heart.....

And about the design of the Tooth Fairy. Which is just as likely as your ID "space alien designer." Hint: He's the Creator, not some space alien, as your guys suggest.

and you can share your just so stories about worm evolution.*

Comes down to evidence. As you just learned, the reason that our second ventricle forms by the cardiac tube bending back on itself, is because the ur-chordate had a linear heart, and a fold in the cardiac tube makes the second ventrical. Now, as you learned, that doesn't mean we have a lamprey heart; it just means that the same things make our heart as make the hearts of other chordates.

Evidence, remember? Same things, genes, tissues, etc. New structures. Learn about it, and you won't be caught unaware again.

Now that problem is solved....

Long time ago, by embryologists. But genetics and evolutionary development now explains the how and why.
 

6days

New member
Barbarian said:
6days said:
Sure.... students can be taught the amazing design of our heart.....
And about the design of the Tooth Fairy.
You are frustrated and making illogical arguments.

Scientists do talk about the design of our hearts.
Nobody in the world, except you, talks about "design of the tooth fairy".*

And... the design of our hearts is something that should be discussed in science class.*
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
And about the design of the Tooth Fairy. Which is just as likely as your ID "space alien designer." Hint: He's the Creator, not some space alien, as your guys suggest.Comes down to evidence. As you just learned, the reason that our second ventricle forms by the cardiac tube bending back on itself, is because the ur-chordate had a linear heart, and a fold in the cardiac tube makes the second ventrical. Now, as you learned, that doesn't mean we have a lamprey heart; it just means that the same things make our heart as make the hearts of other chordates.Evidence, remember? Same things, genes, tissues, etc. New structures. Learn about it, and you won't be caught unaware again.Long time ago, by embryologists. But genetics and evolutionary development now explains the how and why.
Meanwhile, you reject the clear teaching of scripture. Pick a side, then you might be able to participate rationally. :thumb:
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
And about the design of the Tooth Fairy. Which is just as likely as your ID "space alien designer." Hint: He's the Creator, not some space alien, as your guys suggest.
Barbarian,

Scripture says that a double minded mind is unstable in all his ways.

That's you.

There aren't very many things that I agree with Rickard Dawkins about but there is one. "Theistic evolutionists are deluded."

If you really believed that God was the Creator, then you would have no problem accepting ID. In fact, if you reject the core presuppositions of ID you are left with no other philosophical ground than atheism.

Why?

Because any God worth of the title doesn't un-intelligently design anything.

Is that what you believe?

That God is an un-intelligent designer?

:nono:
 

Kdall

BANNED
Banned
Hey kids... Did you know that our heart beats 100,000 times a day,
pumping blood through about 2500 KM of blood vessels. Can you imagine?
The heart sends oxygen and nutrients through all those blood vessels to our extremities .... and at the same time is removing waste products such as carbon dioxide.
There are some amazing engineering feats happening
1. There are actually two circuits of blood vessels.
a) The first circuit of blood vessels takes blood from the body to the lungs, so oxygen can be added, and carbon dioxide removed.
b) The second circuit takes the oxygen rich blood out to all your body parts.
But how does one heart pump in 2 different directions? This is accomplished because our hearts basically is two pumps within one. It is very cool how this happens in the womb, but basically there is a tube that gets kinked forming two compartments that end up functioning as two separate pumps.
2. Why doesn't the friction of a beating heart cause it to over heat? The heart is inside a 2 layered sac, the pericardium. The outer sac attaches to our diaphragm...the inner sac attaches to the heart. Inside this two layered sac is a special lubricant. Without that lubricant our heart would overheat... and we would die.
3. This is so cool..... Our hearts all have a built in pacemaker. Our heart is run by a different type of system than the rest of our body. We become tired and stop... Our senses can get tired or overwhelmed and function less efficiently (for example a putrid smell seems less offensive after a few minutes). Our hearts are not allowed that luxury though of resting. on the upper right hand side of our hearts is a cluster of cells. These cells send an electrical impulse down through the heart, stimulating the muscle. That impulse them reaches a cluster of cells at the bottom of the heart causing it to trigger a impulse upwards... (your heart has just beat once... 99,999 more times in the next 24 hours)
What I think is cool about that system, is it basically operates independently from the brain. However... the brain can overide that 'cruise control'. For example during rigorous exercise you need more blood pumping... more adrenaline etc, The brain then directly controls the heart rate.
What an amazing system! And amazing evidence of design.

If that blows you away, then go research hummingbird hearts. Your head will literally explode
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Seriously? So why does he hate schools?

Cause they don't teach Christianity. Specifically Young Earth Creationism
Open Theism type Christianity. Him living in Taiwan might explain the lack of that view where he is at.

He's a decent bloke to talk to though, I consider him one of my internet friends even though we don't see eye to eye on alot of things.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Cause they don't teach Christianity. Specifically Young Earth Creationism Open Theism type Christianity.
Not at all. Schools are bad because of what they do, not because of what they don't.
 
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