Whiny Atheists

[WizardofOz]

Perhaps they share the problems of being a reviled minority, who are routinely, openly insulted and treated badly. Perhaps is acts as a support group for a demographic that even you think the school should be able to illegally discriminate against.

Sounds more like a bullying problem. A club against bullying, perhaps? :think:

Why are you against litigious special interest groups?

Groups like the FFRF exist solely to engage in special interest litigation. What is their interest? Protecting a lack of a belief in something. Atheism should not be taken so serious.

Surely, if the school was following the law there wouldn't be an issue? It seems that gentle reminders of their legal duties were thoroughly ignored by the school, so what other route would you recommend for stopping illegal behaviour in a public school?

How was the school breaking the law? What illegal behavior? What religious belief was being discriminated against?

Atheism is not a religious belief

 

[gcthomas]

How was the school breaking the law? What illegal behavior? What religious belief was being discriminated against?

Your link describes the Equal Access Act as the relevent law. I don't understand why you are referring to religious discrimination - that wasn't claimed, was it? The school had a duty to allow the students to form a group, and they declined to meet their obligation.

Why shouldn't they be held to account for their actions, if illegal?

 

[alwight]

By all means...what could the purpose possibly be? :idunno:

Well, all the rituals, secret oaths and ceremonial regalia all takes up time of course.
I'm not really one for clubs and meetings myself but I'd fight for the right of anyone to have them, then I'm not a control freak who wants to ban anything that I don't happen to like.

In a public school?

Atheism is just a phase they're going through, a period of youthful rebellion? Could be sometimes, so what? So ban it them?
What then, burn possibly atheistic books?

So they have club meetings just for the sake of demonstrating this? How about an actual purpose or goal?

What is the purpose or goal of atheism? How can a lack of belief have a goal? :think:

Still doesn't seem like a good reason to deny free speech or simply for the like minded to get together for a drink (coffee).

They have a belief in something. That would be something to discuss, yes.

How is a lack of belief in something a foundation for a club?

I suspect that without religious organisations and clubs there wouldn't actually be a need for atheist versions, but why shouldn't atheists have a place to go and meet other atheists?
Are they doing Satan's work perhaps?

 

[PureX]

I general, I never said that they are. That's why I'm giving specific examples of humanist organizations whining.

Atheism is the new black, hmm? :think:

It's not about atheism or racism. It's about our not living up to our own principals as a nation. Doing so has always been a struggle against internal tyranny. Usually the tyranny of the majority over the minority. And the majority always thinks the minority are whiners, because they never want to see themselves as tyrants and abusers. And yet this is what these struggles have always been about. And will continue to be about.

Understanding this, we should welcome the "whine" of the abused minority. They are the voice of our own selfishness, ignorance, and moral neglect.

 

[WizardofOz]

Your link describes the Equal Access Act as the relevent law. I don't understand why you are referring to religious discrimination - that wasn't claimed, was it? The school had a duty to allow the students to form a group, and they declined to meet their obligation.

Why shouldn't they be held to account for their actions, if illegal?

The school is obligated to allow any group to form for any reason? :nono:

What was (potentially) illegal? That is what I am asking.

 

[WizardofOz]

Well, all the rituals, secret oaths and ceremonial regalia all takes up time of course.
I'm not really one for clubs and meetings myself but I'd fight for the right of anyone to have them, then I'm not a control freak who wants to ban anything that I don't happen to like.

It was not banned. It just wasn't initially going to be allowed to form, in part due to lack of staff.

Atheism is just a phase they're going through, a period of youthful rebellion? Could be sometimes, so what? So ban it them?
What then, burn possibly atheistic books?

Don't make it out like public school has outrageous religious overtones that must be combated by an atheist social club.

Still doesn't seem like a good reason to deny free speech or simply for the like minded to get together for a drink (coffee).

Free speech has nothing to do with it.
They want to get together for coffee? Then make a coffee club. That is at least something to base a group on. Atheism is by definition nothing (in regard to a belief in a deity).

How can a group be founded upon a lack of something?

I suspect that without religious organisations and clubs there wouldn't actually be a need for atheist versions, but why shouldn't atheists have a place to go and meet other atheists?
Are they doing Satan's work perhaps?

You're still not answering the question.

How is a lack of belief in something a foundation for a club?

 

[WizardofOz]

It's not about atheism or racism. It's about our not living up to our own principals as a nation. Doing so has always been a struggle against internal tyranny. Usually the tyranny of the majority over the minority. And the majority always thinks the minority are whiners, because they never want to see themselves as tyrants and abusers. And yet this is what these struggles have always been about. And will continue to be about.

Understanding this, we should welcome the "whine" of the abused minority. They are the voice of our own selfishness, ignorance, and moral neglect.

You're still speaking in generalities. Feel free to address any of the numerous examples given in this thread.

Not that I don't love platitudes and feelgooderies.

 

[Tinark]

I have noticed a growing trend among humanist organizations in their taking legal action against religious expression. I have created this thread in order to offer examples of this type of activism in an effort to expose the whiners and what they are whining about. Though most examples will be of whiny anti-theists rather than your run-of-the-mill atheist, the more prevalent word association told me it was better to title it as I did.

Feel free to post your own examples of atheists/anti-theists whining, even if it is a post from this forum. Some of our resident atheists have been known to whine as well.

This thread is in the politics sub-forum as it's not intended to debate theology but it will undoubtedly go there, which is fine with me.

A lot of what got me focused on this topic began with the organization called American Atheists joined with four New Yorkers to sue over a t-beam resembling a cross' inclusion in the WTC Memorial. A healthy debate ensured on TOL here.

Side note from that thread: Silent Hunter owes me a one month break but he did get a bit slippery with his Supreme Court requirement. I guess he wasn't as convinced as he made it seem.

If you're an atheist feel free to defend the action (or not) and explain why you feel it is justified (or not) to whine about these issues.

My 10,000 TOL post. Yay me.

Keep this stuff off of public land or organizations with public funding, and there won't be any problems. Feel free to display as much as you want on private land. Why the need to violate the constitution and then complain when someone points out that you are breaking the law?

 

[WizardofOz]

Keep this stuff off of public land or organizations with public funding, and there won't be any problems. Feel free to display as much as you want on private land. Why the need to violate the constitution and then complain when someone points out that you are breaking the law?

Is "In God we Trust" on our money a violation of the Constitution?

It's one thing to declare a violation of the Constitution....

 

[gcthomas]

The school is obligated to allow any group to form for any reason? :nono:

What was (potentially) illegal? That is what I am asking.

You could have read what you posted about. From YOUR link:

It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school ... to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting ... on the basis of the religious, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.

​

 

[WizardofOz]

You could have read what you posted about. From YOUR link:

It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school ... to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting ... on the basis of the religious, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.

​

It's not on the basis of religion. Atheism is not a religion.

Philosophical perhaps? Their philosophy was discriminated against? What philosophy? Philosophy suggests a positive belief, does it not? They should form a philosophy club, perhaps :idunno:

Yes, I read it. Why do you think I linked to it? Obviously repeating what I posted isn't going to just clear this up.

How can atheism (a lack of a particular belief) be the foundation of a social club?

 

[alwight]

It was not banned. It just wasn't initially going to be allowed to form, in part due to lack of staff.

How was it not in effect a ban?

Don't make it out like public school has outrageous religious overtones that must be combated by an atheist social club.

So there's no problem if atheists want to meet in a club then, if they get bored it will fold.

Free speech has nothing to do with it.
They want to get together for coffee? Then make a coffee club. That is at least something to base a group on. Atheism is by definition nothing (in regard to a belief in a deity).

Clubs and groups tend to control and organise "free" speech in our societies imo.
Why should those without a religious agenda not be free to meet as they do and even have an atheistic agenda?

How can a group be founded upon a lack of something?

I don't think that is the point, the actual "something" is the perceived religious agenda going on around them, at home and perhaps aimed at them.

You're still not answering the question.

How is a lack of belief in something a foundation for a club?

Well, I don't want to join an atheist club but if they do then that's good enough for me, and maybe I have answered above.

 

[gcthomas]

It's not on the basis of religion. Atheism is not a religion.

Philosophical perhaps? Their philosophy was discriminated against? What philosophy? Philosophy suggests a positive belief, does it not? They should form a philosophy club, perhaps :idunno:

Yes, I read it. Why do you think I linked to it? Obviously repeating what I posted isn't going to just clear this up.

How can atheism (a lack of a particular belief) be the foundation of a social club?

I suspect that the club might come under the 'or other' provision. Can you argue against that? The school appears to be breaking the law.

 

[WizardofOz]

Why should those without a religious agenda not be free to meet as they do and even have an atheistic agenda?

What is an atheist agenda? Can an agenda be formed around non-belief?

I don't think that is the point, the actual "something" is the perceived religious agenda going on around them, at home and perhaps aimed at them.

So, it's more of an anti-religion support group? That would be at least be something to form a group around.

It is simply silly to start a social group around a lack of belief in something.

Atheists joke about stuff like this all the time. Should the school pander to a flying spaghetti monster club? How about an "I don't believe in unicorns" club?

This is ridiculous on its face.

 

[WizardofOz]

I suspect that the club might come under the 'or other' provision. Can you argue against that? The school appears to be breaking the law.

What kind of speech might an atheist club engage in? What type(s) of speech is based around atheism?

 

[alwight]

What is an atheist agenda? Can an agenda be formed around non-belief?

I'm not suggesting there is any specific atheist agenda only that if there were it would be up to them and their members.

So, it's more of an anti-religion support group? That would be at least be something to form a group around.

It could just be a place where like-minded people can sound off about religions without the usual threats of hell fire and damnation.

It is simply silly to start a social group around a lack of belief in something.

Atheists joke about stuff like this all the time. Should the school pander to a flying spaghetti monster club? How about an "I don't believe in unicorns" club?

This is ridiculous on its face.

I've heard of atheist churches here in the UK, some people just like to meet and socialise it seems without any divine purpose.

 

[gcthomas]

What kind of speech might an atheist club engage in? What type(s) of speech is based around atheism?

Who cares? The students wanted to do it, it was their right. The school was asked nicely, but they refused to meet their legal obligations.

Should the students just allow the intransigence of the school authorities to deny them their legal rights?

 

[WizardofOz]

Who cares? The students wanted to do it, it was their right. The school was asked nicely, but they refused to meet their legal obligations.

Should the students just allow the intransigence of the school authorities to deny them their legal rights?

What legal obligations/legal rights? That's the point. I think any perceived unlawful acts on behalf of the school were grossly overstated.

 

[fool]

It's not on the basis of religion. Atheism is not a religion.

Philosophical perhaps? Their philosophy was discriminated against? What philosophy? Philosophy suggests a positive belief, does it not? They should form a philosophy club, perhaps :idunno:

Yes, I read it. Why do you think I linked to it? Obviously repeating what I posted isn't going to just clear this up.

How can atheism (a lack of a particular belief) be the foundation of a social club?

It shall be unlawful for any public secondary school ... to deny equal access or a fair opportunity to, or discriminate against, any students who wish to conduct a meeting ... on the basis of the religious, philosophical, or other content of the speech at such meetings.

 

[resurrected]

kwitcher whining! :sibbie: