Whiny Atheists

[noguru]

So . . . are you an agnostic theist?

Yes, in a sense, if based purely on objective empirical evidence. I realized that my agnosticism was a quandary that was impossible to resolve. But given the law of non contradiction, I opted for a positive answer to the question of "Is there a God?".

 

[drbrumley]

Either your an honest or dishonest agnostic.

 

[WizardofOz]

You neg rep me for agreeing with you that you can think what you want. My your touchy feely.

:chuckle:

Yeah, he negged me yesterday too. He's not as fun loving as he used to be :sigh:

Ah well, it seems he's not the only crabby one lately. Must be the long winter. :idunno:

 

[noguru]

Either your an honest or dishonest agnostic.

The same can be said for theists as well. So what is your point, and how do you determine that?

I take people at their word, until they demonstrate otherwise.

 

[PureX]

Yes, in a sense, if based purely on objective empirical evidence. I realized that my agnosticism was a quandary that was impossible to resolve. But given the law of non contradiction, I opted for a positive answer to the question of "Is there a God?".

Me too. It isn't because I know anything one way or another, it's because I DON'T know anything one way or another, but my life is significantly improved with faith in a benevolent "God" than it is without it.

And that seems a logical enough reason to choose faith in God, to me.

 

[drbrumley]

The same can be said for theists as well. So what is your point, and how do you determine that?

We test the spirits to see if from God.

I take people at their word, until they demonstrate otherwise.

I have no issue with that.

 

[WizardofOz]

And another....

Silent Hunter - why not debate the issue rather than play silly neg rep games?

If the relief workers had found beams that resemble these and made a shrine of sorts out of them then absolutely they should be included as part of the history of the WTC disaster cleanup.

As it is, forcing them in simply for inclusion is just silly without a historical context tying them to the event, which the t-beam cross already has.

If the workers found strength in a stuffed animal or steel that resembled an atom and they propped up it would have equal historical value. But, that's not what actually occurred.

 

[Silent Hunter]

- why not debate the issue . . .?

I don't debate. However, if you'd like to have a discussion I'd probably oblige.

If the relief workers had found beams that resemble these and made a shrine of sorts out of them then absolutely they should be included as part of the history of the WTC disaster cleanup.

. . . a shrine? . . . a CHRISTIAN shrine? No. Not if it is going to be funded and maintained in ANY WAY by MY tax dollars.

As it is, forcing them in simply for inclusion is just silly without a historical context tying them to the event, which the t-beam cross already has.

It has no more "historical context" than the rest of the rubble at G0.

If the workers found strength in a stuffed animal or steel that resembled an atom and they propped up it would have equal historical value.

No, it wouldn't. Those things aren't christian symbols as the "cross" clearly was (and IS) viewed as being.

 

[WizardofOz]

It has no more "historical context" than the rest of the rubble at G0.

This is where you're wrong. It does have a well documented history tied to the WTC cleanup efforts.

the firefighter who’s pushing for the beam’s inclusion in the memorial, Princeton Deputy Chief Roy James, said the cross can be seen as separate from the Christian religion. “I’m a Jew,” he said on Fox News. “Ironically, I’m fighting to have this cross there because I believe that someone’s story is behind that. That story needs to be told. It has nothing to do with religious faith. It has to do with telling history.” story

:rotfl: The guy is even Jewish!

further:

In addition, a documentary film titled The Cross and The Towers, which was released in 2006, tells the story of the 9/11 World Trade Center Cross. It has won a "number of awards, including the Audience Choice Award at Palm Beach International Festival, Best Film at Gloria Film Festival, Crystal Heart at Heartland Film Festival and finalist in the USA FilmFestival.[19][20][21] In 2013, the "U.S. District Judge Deborah Batts concluded Thursday that the 17-foot-high cross, which became a spiritual symbol for workers at ground zero, does not amount to an endorsement of Christianity." Joseph Daniels, the President and CEO of the National September 11 Memorial & Museum at the World Trade Center Foundation, welcomed the court decision to continue the display of the cross, stating "is in fact a crucial part of the 9/11 Memorial Museum's mission."[22] Furthermore, Mark Alcott, the lawyer of the National September 11 Memorial & Museum at the World Trade Center Foundation, which fought the court case against the American Atheists stated that "The museum is gratified by the decision."[23] The potential use of the cross in the World Trade Center Memorial has been controversial. Many groups such as families of certain Christian victims want the cross to be included.[24] Other organizations disagree, notably the American Atheists (who have filed suit pertaining to this issue)[25] as well as the Coalition for Jewish Concerns.[26] Alternatively, the Anti-Defamation League issued a statement that it "fully supports the inclusion in the National September 11 Memorial & Museum of the metal beams in the shape of a cross found in the rubble at Ground Zero in the aftermath of the tragic attacks on 9/11."

You may be ignorant of the history behind this particular piece of salvaged rubble but that doesn't change the reality of the history behind it and the meaning it has for people of all faiths actually involved in the WTC cleanup efforts.

Go ahead and neg rep me again in lieu of a thought out response :e4e:

 

[Silent Hunter]

This is where you're wrong. It does have a well documented history tied to the WTC cleanup efforts.

the firefighter who’s pushing for the beam’s inclusion in the memorial, Princeton Deputy Chief Roy James, said the cross can be seen as separate from the Christian religion. “I’m a Jew,” he said on Fox News. “Ironically, I’m fighting to have this cross there because I believe that someone’s story is behind that. That story needs to be told. It has nothing to do with religious faith. It has to do with telling history.” story

The guy is even Jewish!

further:

In addition, a documentary film titled The Cross and The Towers, which was released in 2006, tells the story of the 9/11 World Trade Center Cross. It has won a "number of awards, including the Audience Choice Award at Palm Beach International Festival, Best Film at Gloria Film Festival, Crystal Heart at Heartland Film Festival and finalist in the USA FilmFestival.[19][20][21] In 2013, the "U.S. District Judge Deborah Batts concluded Thursday that the 17-foot-high cross, which became a spiritual symbol for workers at ground zero, does not amount to an endorsement of Christianity." Joseph Daniels, the President and CEO of the National September 11 Memorial & Museum at the World Trade Center Foundation, welcomed the court decision to continue the display of the cross, stating "is in fact a crucial part of the 9/11 Memorial Museum's mission."[22] Furthermore, Mark Alcott, the lawyer of the National September 11 Memorial & Museum at the World Trade Center Foundation, which fought the court case against the American Atheists stated that "The museum is gratified by the decision."[23] The potential use of the cross in the World Trade Center Memorial has been controversial. Many groups such as families of certain Christian victims want the cross to be included.[24] Other organizations disagree, notably the American Atheists (who have filed suit pertaining to this issue)[25] as well as the Coalition for Jewish Concerns.[26] Alternatively, the Anti-Defamation League issued a statement that it "fully supports the inclusion in the National September 11 Memorial & Museum of the metal beams in the shape of a cross found in the rubble at Ground Zero in the aftermath of the tragic attacks on 9/11."

You may be ignorant of the history behind this particular piece of salvaged rubble but that doesn't change the reality of the history behind it and the meaning it has for people of all faiths actually involved in the WTC cleanup efforts.

So? There is a story being told at the WTCM that doesn't necessitate the inclusion of an obvious christian symbol. That "the cross can be seen as separate from the christian religion" does little to separate it from the christian religion.

Odd too how a "spiritual symbol" in the shape of a christian cross "does not amount to an endorsement of Christianity".

 

[WizardofOz]

So? There is a story being told at the WTCM that doesn't necessitate the inclusion of an obvious christian symbol. That "the cross can be seen as separate from the christian religion" does little to separate it from the christian religion.

The story being told is a story of the history of the attacks, relief efforts and cleanup. The beam cross is a part of that history. It is therefore being included as a historical artifact and not just as a religious symbol.

It's not just a random cross. It is completely relevant to the memorial, whiny atheists apprehension notwithstanding.

One final wager on the American Atheist's last gasp, pathetically desperate appeal? You seem like you could use a break. :idunno:

Odd too how a "spiritual symbol" in the shape of a christian cross "does not amount to an endorsement of Christianity".

There are a lot of crosses in museums and federally funded memorial cemeteries. Their inclusion does not necessarily amount to an endorsement of Christianity given their (secular) historical relevance.

 

[Silent Hunter]

The story being told is a story of the history of the attacks, relief efforts and cleanup. The beam cross is a part of that history. It is therefore being included as a historical artifact and not just as a religious symbol.

So? Does that mean that I have to approve? You seem to think that it does.

It's not just a random cross.

Not random? So it IS an endorsement of christianity . . . :think:.

It is completely relevant to the memorial, whiny atheists apprehension notwithstanding.

. . . rather whiny christian wants not withstanding.

One final wager on the American Atheist's last gasp, pathetically desperate appeal? You seem like you could use a break.

You're just begging for more neg rep . . . aren't you?

There are a lot of crosses in museums and federally funded memorial cemeteries. Their inclusion does not necessarily amount to an endorsement of Christianity.

No, but in my opinion (which is the only one that matters) the WTCM cross definitely IS an endorsement of christianity.

 

[resurrected]

. . . a shrine? . . . a CHRISTIAN shrine?

:think:

shrine

/SHrīn/

noun

noun: shrine; plural noun: shrines

1. a place regarded as holy because of its associations with a divinity or a sacred person or relic, typically marked by a building or other construction.

I don't believe that's what's being proposed

 

[Silent Hunter]

I don't believe that's what's being proposed

I'd wager you'd see a large number of catholics genuflecting and fundamentalist praying in its presence . . . something I doubt you'd see in front of a non-christian relic.

 

[resurrected]

I'd wager you'd see a large number of catholics genuflecting and fundamentalist praying in its presence . . . something I doubt you'd see in front of a non-christian relic.

if some people see it as holy, i'm sure most will not

is it sufficient for you that some will see it as an opportunity to pray, even if it is not presented that way, to be opposed to it?

 

[WizardofOz]

So. Does that mean that I have to approve? You seem to think that it does.

No one is asking you to personally approve. Just stop the whining about its perfectly legal inclusion in the WTC memorial.

Not random? So it IS an endorsement of christianity . . . :think:.

:doh: Non-sequiter. Just because it is not random it is therefore an endorsement of Christianity. lain:

A Christian symbol can be included in a federally funded memorial without an endorsement of the religion itself because of its historical value and relevance.

. . . rather whiny christian wants not withstanding.

And Jews apparently.

Make no mistake though, the American Atheists are the ones whining.

You're just begging for more neg rep . . . aren't you?

Oh grow up. Like I care who neg reps me. This isn't a popularity contest. Get over yourself.

Neg rep me all you want. Hopefully it will cheer you up a bit. :madmad:

Seriously. Lighten up.

No, but in my opinion (which is the only one that matters) the WTCM cross definitely IS an endorsement of christianity.

I'll take the educated opinion of Federal Judge Deborah Batts over yours in this case. When she says it can be included because of its historical tie, what it is a symbol of is rendered irrelevant, regardless of how much you or American Atheists :allsmile: about religious endorsements you perceive.

 

[resurrected]

And Jews apparently.

you know, I once made a joke about whiny jews and a certain over-sensitive member here went whining to the mods and had it removed

:think:


better watch yer step

 

[WizardofOz]

you know, I once made a joke about whiny jews and a certain over-sensitive member here went whining to the mods and had it removed

:think:

better watch yer step

Really?

This particular Jew isn't whining though. He is fighting to have a similar cross displayed at the Princeton Fire station and American Atheists are whining about this as well.

A Jewish firefighter in New Jersey who wants to display a beam from the World Trade Center with a Christian cross cut from it is meeting opposition from an atheists’ group. Roy James, the deputy fire chief in Princeton, requested the beam be used as part of a planned local 9-11 memorial in the southern New Jersey township. “I’m a Jew,” James told Fox News. “Ironically, I’m fighting to have this cross there because I believe that someone’s story is behind that. That story needs to be told. It has nothing to do with religious faith. It has something to do with telling history.” The American Atheists organization has threatened to sue Princeton if the beam is put on display. Its president, David Silverman, told Fox News that the beam is a “religious icon” and placing it on public land set aside for the memorial is a “clear violation” of the separation of church and state. In the days following the attack on the World Trade Center, symbols including Stars of David and crosses were cut into some of the beams from the fallen buildings. It was happenstance that Princeton received a beam with a cross cut in it. “We got a historic piece,” James said. “There’s so much behind that. If we do not show the cross, we are leaving out someone’s story. We are basically saying someone’s emotions that day didn’t matter.” The beam is being stored at a Princeton fire station.

 

[noguru]

We test the spirits to see if from God.

I'm not sure what that had to with your original comment, but perhaps I misunderstood who you were responding to or what you were saying.

 

[alwight]

Make no mistake though, the American Atheists are the ones whining.

Wouldn't you rather expect American Atheists to "whine", since it's rather their purpose and raison d'être to do so, or should they become a knitting circle?