ECT Which Gospel?

heir

TOL Subscriber
It's odd unless people who are just reading the Bible itself have no idea what 'right dividing' is, because they are just by themselves, or have no idea how much impact the books they mention have had on them.
You mean the Holy Ghost cannot teach them? Paul writes otherwise:

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

One cannot rightly divide the word of truth unless there is a gospel of your salvation that needs to be divided out from other gospels in the Bible. That leaves you out from study that is approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Dispensationalism uses this phrase as a banner for dividing up the Bible into dispensations.
Most who claim any sort of "dispensationalism" would do well to study that which was committed/given to the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV), to charge some that they teach no other doctrine (1 Timothy 3 KJV), neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying (1 Timothy 1:4 KJV). Our affections need to be set (Philippians 3:20-21 KJV, Colossians 3:1-4 KJV). You cannot do that by ignoring the dispensations committed and given to the apostle Paul.
 

Danoh

New member
It's odd unless people who are just reading the Bible itself have no idea what 'right dividing' is, because they are just by themselves, or have no idea how much impact the books they mention have had on them.

In Paul's time it had to do with dividing between ceremonial and essential law. See I Tim 1:4. 6:3. 6:20. 2 Tim 2:23. Tit. 1:10, 14-16. 3:9-11.

All you and yours ever do is speculate, guess at "perhaps this, may be that" about how Dispensationalism [re]emerged.

The rest being just as obvious - your parroting of assertions you and yours read in your endless books "about."

The way these things really come about is the exact same way by which many distinctions come about in life - we cannot but note contrasts and similarities between things.

"I'd better take my keys... I forgot to schedule so and so in... that is similar to this... this here does not jibe with that over there... no thanks... by the way, what time is it..."

In this, if "rightly dividing the word of truth" is a reference to rightly handling it; this itself is a distinction; between that and wrongly handling it. And what that points to; whether one is aware or not that one is asking such a question?

It points to the need to attempt a means of not only making a distinction between said "rightly" and said "wrongly" but one that will allow knowing how to know which of those two one is engaged in - the "wrongly" [error] or the "rightly" [truth].

In this - what distinction between things does "rightly dividing the word of truth" rely within the context of the following passage from 2 Timothy 2:

18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

It in fact relies on, and points to the need to note many distinctions between things.

Fact is, there is the need to identify what this "rightly dividing the word of truth" business is all about, as well as what it is not.

Even if all it means is "laying out aright the word of truth."
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Since the expression is in the Tim/Titus group of letters, it is the best interp practice to see what else was meant in those letters along that same line. Those verses show it to be: wrangling about words, genealogies, and ceremonial things.

You are big on villifying and short on paying attention to the text.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Fact is, there is the need to identify what this "rightly dividing the word of truth" business is all about, as well as what it is not.

Even if all it means is "laying out aright the word of truth."

He doesn't know what the word of truth is that must be rightly divided, but he's going to "interp" it. :dead:
 

Danoh

New member
Since the expression is in the Tim/Titus group of letters, it is the best interp practice to see what else was meant in those letters along that same line. Those verses show it to be: wrangling about words, genealogies, and ceremonial things.

You are big on villifying and short on paying attention to the text.

My point is that even attempting to understand whatever "rightly dividing the word of truth" may or may not or may not have been a reference to, involves noting both distinctions and similarities between things.

Even your, as usual off-base, assertion that I am "big on villifying and short on paying attention to the text" cannot but rely on this Distinctions Principle.

Even as, you are unaware of your engaging, relying upon said distinctions.

"In the beginning" is a distinction between things.

"In the beginning God" is another distinction between things.

"In the beginning God created" is yet another distinction between things.

"And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."

No, Interplanner, if anything, the truly consistent Mid-Acts Dispensationalist consistently notes distinctions and similarities between things.

That is how the Dispensational distinction itself [re]emerged.

Therein is found our actual "history."

Romans 5:

13. [For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

One distinction after another...

Take it how you will but here was one about your school - 2 Timothy 2's:

16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Your school's same old 70AD assertion - even before 70AD :bang:

Lol - Paul's needful, verse 17 "big on vilifying" as a result; not unlike that of John W's today:

"And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;"
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
OK heir, so what is it in the Timothy/Titus group?
Paul defines what the word of truth is and tells us to study to shew thyself approved unto God by rightly dividing it. First, find what Paul defines it as then tell me how and why we should or need to rightly divide it.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Do you agree that what is said here applies to the Jews who lived under the Law?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Believing (putting ones faith in) Jesus and thereby receiving eternal life is not the law. That is the gospel which is why this scripture has been so potent in bringing many souls to Christ. Although the Jewish audience was still under the Mosaic system they came to Jesus out of hunger. His words were different from any they had ever heard (John 7:46) offered something beyond anything they had experienced (John 6:63). Their hunger for God was awakened and they responded by coming to Jesus (John 6:37). At that time, of course, his words were still promissory notes that would be fulfilled once Christ completed His work at the Resurrection.

It seems that you, in your devotion to your doctrinal system would make the Jesus' words anachronistic, applying to another people in another time. The Early Church did not agree with you. They extensively quoted the Four Gospels, treating them as relevant, authoritative and applicable to the lives of all believers. Evidently their Bible had not been shredded into micro-dispensations.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Heir,
It is God's truth about Christ in history. Then in that group of letters it is things like what worship, leaders, service to dependents, etc. should be like. In 2 Tim it is more on persisting in the faith than anything else. In Titus there is also some instructions about people who have become lazy.

I listed the things that he didn't want to waste any time on in those settings: wrangling about words, geneaologies and maybe a bit about ceremonial law.

Why anyone would think it has to do with sectioning the Bible into different programs is just evidence of a really poor grip on what is self-evidently important and self-organized.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Believing (putting ones faith in) Jesus and thereby receiving eternal life is not the law. That is the gospel which is why this scripture has been so potent in bringing many souls to Christ. Although the Jewish audience was still under the Mosaic system they came to Jesus out of hunger. His words were different from any they had ever heard (John 7:46) offered something beyond anything they had experienced (John 6:63). Their hunger for God was awakened and they responded by coming to Jesus (John 6:37). At that time, of course, his words were still promissory notes that would be fulfilled once Christ completed His work at the Resurrection.

It seems that you, in your devotion to your doctrinal system would make the Jesus' words anachronistic, applying to another people in another time. The Early Church did not agree with you. They extensively quoted the Four Gospels, treating them as relevant, authoritative and applicable to the lives of all believers. Evidently their Bible had not been shredded into micro-dispensations.


Hi , and we see that Jesus PRACTICED dispensations or Division OR Ages , in Isa 61:2 and in Luke 21 :20-24 , referring to Rom11:25 , until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled .

dan p
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There are only a few markers. The end of the age of the nations is the end of the world in Judaism. The issue dividing Christianity and Judaism is whether the message to go out from "Israel" during the age of the nations was the Law or the Gospel.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
Hi , and we see that Jesus PRACTICED dispensations or Division OR Ages , in Isa 61:2 and in Luke 21 :20-24 , referring to Rom11:25 , until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled .

dan p

You will have to explain what you mean, Dan.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
There are only a few markers. The end of the age of the nations is the end of the world in Judaism. The issue dividing Christianity and Judaism is whether the message to go out from "Israel" during the age of the nations was the Law or the Gospel.


Hi and will you please give verses for your BLOVIATING !!:chuckle::chuckle:

DAN P
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Hi and will you please give verses for your BLOVIATING !!:chuckle::chuckle:

DAN P

I don't have a quote from Judaism handy about the end of the world at the end of the time of the nations; I think it derived from rabbinic comment on Isaiah. Not everything Jesus said about the end of the world is brand spanking new. Judaism had a 7 day/age belief, and a belief in a new "week" created on the 7th day/age.

The 2nd item is what Eph 3:6 is saying: the access to the covenants, to membership in Israel and the household of God is through the Gospel. When Judaism began sending out missionaries, a little before Jesus, they took the Law around to neighboring nations and peoples and said it was the answer, the light, the thing that would save. Jesus: "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have life; it is these that testify of me!"
 

Shasta

Well-known member
There is really no need to wonder if there is one gospel or more than one. The Apostle Paul already answered this question

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-7 ESV)

The word “different” is heteros which means “different in kind or nature.”

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/1-6.htm

In verse 6, the teaching of the Judaizers was called a heteros “gospel” because it was utterly unlike, and antithetical to the gospel of grace that they were departing from. So that the Galatians would not think there were multiple (legitimate) gospels Paul adds in verse 7

“not that there is ANOTHER one.”

The word he uses this time is allos which means “another of a like or similar kind.

A comparison of the words heteros and allos can be found in Strong’s Concordance

2087 héterosanother (of a different kind). 2087 /héteros ("another but distinct in kind") stands in contrast to 243 /állos ("another of the same kind"). 2087 /héteros ("another of a different quality") emphasizes it is qualitatively different from its counterpart (comparison).

http://biblehub.com/greek/2087.htm

Paul said that no other gospel was the same as or similar to the one he preached. However, if the dual gospel hypothesis were correct there WOULD have been another gospel similar to his – the so called “Jewish Gospel” This particular gospel if it had existed would have been taught by Jesus Himself in person to the Twelve Apostles even as Jesus supposedly revealed Paul's gospel to him through supernatural revelation.

“Peter’s gospel” though different was apparently powerful to save men just as Paul’s. Had a saving “Jewish Gospel” existed it would not have been called heterodox (different and therefore false). It would have been another (allos) gospel of the same or similar nature to Paul’s. In Galatians 1:7, however, Paul flatly denies that there is any other gospel AT ALL.

Is this just a grammatical illusion? Would someone who lived at that time, who grew up speaking and reading the Greek of the early centuries, have understood these verses this way? At this point we might wish we could use Dr. Who’s Tardis to go back in time and discuss it with someone who lived then.

Fortunately we can hear from people of that era. Several men - one from the Third Century and the other from the Second commented on these very verses in their writings. The first was a man of God, John Chysostom who is regarded by many as the greatest Bible expositor of the Third and Fourth Centuries. The second was Marcion the arch-heretic of the Second Century. Despite his heterodox views, Marcion had access to the very earliest editions of the NT and, because he spoke Koine Greek he could understand the meaning of the words in Galatians without aid of lexicons or translations.

When Marcion read Galatians 1:6-7 it was obvious to him that Paul was saying there was no other gospel AT ALL. Therefore, he reasoned that Paul’s revelatory Gospel of Grace superseded the teaching of all the other Apostles and even what Jesus Himself had taught during His earthly ministry. Marcion was so convinced of his insight that he produced his own edition of the NT minus everything but the Gospel of Luke and the writings of Paul (without the pastoral epistles)

Here is what Chrysostom wrote in response to Marcion:

Galatians 1:7 “Which is not another Gospel.”

And justly, for there is not another. Nevertheless the Marcionites are misled by this phrase, as diseased persons are injured even by healthy food, for they have seized upon it, and exclaim, “So Paul himself has declared there is no other Gospel.” For they do not allow all the Evangelists, but one only, and him mutilated and confused according to their pleasure.* Their explanation of the words, “according to my Gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ,” (Rom. xvi. 25.)** is sufficiently ridiculous; nevertheless, for the sake of those who are easily seduced, it is necessary to refute it. We assert, therefore, that, although a thousand Gospels were written, if the contents of all were the same, they would still be one, and their unity no wise infringed by the number of writers.


*the Book of Luke

** the Marcionites thought that when Paul used the term "my gospel" which he did once, it meant that it had come to and through him only

John Chrysostom Homilies on Galatians Chapter II. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iii.ii.html

Chysostom agreed that the phrase “which is not another gospel” meant there was no other gospel at all. However, unlike Marcion, Chrysostom in line with the Church Fathers of the preceding three centuries believed in the essential unity of the NT message as it was expressed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and in the writings of the other Apostles (including Paul). To the Early Church all of it was equally scripture, profitable for doctrine, reproof, instruction in righteousness. The Marcionite’s belief that Paul had a different gospel and that only his writings were mandatory and applicable to believers was universally rejected as aberrant.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Heir,
It is God's truth about Christ in history. Then in that group of letters it is things like what worship, leaders, service to dependents, etc. should be like. In 2 Tim it is more on persisting in the faith than anything else. In Titus there is also some instructions about people who have become lazy.

I listed the things that he didn't want to waste any time on in those settings: wrangling about words, geneaologies and maybe a bit about ceremonial law.

Why anyone would think it has to do with sectioning the Bible into different programs is just evidence of a really poor grip on what is self-evidently important and self-organized.
Paul defines what the word of truth is. Why can't you? My request was simple:

Paul defines what the word of truth is and tells us to study to shew thyself approved unto God by rightly dividing it. First, find what Paul defines it as then tell me how and why we should or need to rightly divide it.
 
Top