WHICH CHURCH WAS HEBREWS WRITTEN TO?

[DougE]

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were GRAFTED IN among them, and have become a FELLOW-PARTAKER of the fatness of the root of the olive tree,
(Romans 11:27)
This passage speaks in the present tense to Gentile believers in Jesus who the Apostle says HAVE BEEN are grafted into the "fatness" (or blessings or nourishment) of the ROOT along with believing Israel. He is not talking about what WILL happen but what had happened already. The "root" of the cultivated olive tree is the heritage of faith Israel inherited from the Patriarchs and prophets. He says Gentile believers like wild olive branches have (through Christ) been grafted into the ROOT of the "domesticated" plant of Israel. When one branch is grafted into a larger plant in this way it becomes ORGANICALLY INSEPARABLE from it. Thus, Paul's point is not at all true that Gentiles and Jews are comprise two redemptively SEPARATE groups.

24 For if you WERE CUT OFF out of the naturally wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into A CULTIVATED OLIVE TREE [singular], how much more will these, the natural, be grafted into the own olive tree!
(Romans 11:24)

Paul worked very hard to persuade people that the wall of division between believing Jews and Gentiles was torn down:
11 Therefore remember that formerly you—the Gentiles in the flesh, the ones being called the uncircumcision by that being called the circumcision, made by hands in the flesh— 12 that at that time you were SEPARATE from Christ, ALIENATED from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS TO THE COVENANTS of the promise, not having hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones once being far off, have become near by the blood of Christ.
(Romans 11:11-13)
Here Paul speaks of the condition the Gentiles were in before salvation.
1. SEPARATE from Christ
2. ALIENATED from the Commonwealth of Israel
3. STRANGERS to the Covenants of promise

The fact that he uses the PAST TENSE shows that the Gentiles are in that state NO LONGER.
By contrast your doctrine holds that Gentile believers
1. ARE alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel, that they
2. ARE strangers to the Covenants of promise In fact, you claim that they do not even have a covenant with Christ, though all believers are taught to drink of the "cup of the New Covenant IN Christ's BLOOD"

After discussing the spiritual state of unbelieving Gentiles in Romans 11:11-13 Paul goes on to explain what the blood of Christ has done for Jews and Gentile's relationship with each other:

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two [Jews and Gentiles] one and has torn down the DIVIDING WALL OF HOSTILITY 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself ONE NEW MAN out of the two,thus making peace 16 and reconciling both of them to God in one body THROUGH THE CROSS, by which He EXTINGUISHED their hostility
(Ephesians 2:14-15)
By contrast, you seem intent on undoing the reconciliation accomplished by Christ on the cross and resurrecting the old wall of separation and splitting Jews and Gentiles into two separate camps

It is true that one day all Israel WILL be saved but they will be saved the same way everyone else is - through the cross of Christ.
22 And the righteousness of God is through faith from Jesus Christ toward ALL THOSE BELIEVING. For there is NO DISTINCTION, 23 for ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth as a PROPITIATION through faith IN HIS BLOOD, for a showing forth of His righteousness, because of the forbearance of the sins having taken place beforehand,
(Romans 3:22-24)

You obviously do not like the idea of covenants and your prejudice keeps you from seeing that Jesus said the cup they drank of represented the new covenant in His blood. In that culture drinking of the same cup and eating of the same bread represented fellowship. We only have a relationship with someone when our differences have been reconciled and we are at peace. Christ's death on the cross is what enables us peace with God:
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
21 And you, being once alienated and hostile in mind, in the evil deeds, 22 but now He has reconciled in HIS BODY of flesh THROUGH DEATH, to present you holy and unblemished and blameless before Him,
(Colossians 1:20-21)

Paul was speaking to Gentiles who were still around when Paul wrote Romans. These Gentiles believed the preaching of Jesus and the twelve.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God is not done with unbelieving Israel.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The remnant is composed of believing Jews and Gentiles. God has always made provision for the Gentiles to be saved through Israel.
11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
The election, the Jewish and Gentile believing remnant, has obtained to righteousness by grace through faith. Unbelieving Israel has been blinded.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Israel fell because of their rejection of Jesus as Christ, the Son of God. Beginning with the earthly ministry of Jesus Israel had to believe on the name of Jesus, that he is the Messiah, the Son of God, to be justified unto eternal life (John 8:24 Acts 2:36)). Jesus shed his blood and died for the remission of sins under the first testament (Matthew 26:28 Hebrews 9:15). Jesus died to put in force the new testament for Israel (Hebrews 9:17). Only the believing remnant of Jews received Jesus for the new testament promise of salvation. Gentiles also believed. Through the fall of Israel, salvation came to the Gentiles to provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy in order to save them.
Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Israel, as can be seen in the above verse, would be provoked to jealousy by a foolish nation who are not a people (Deuteronomy 32:21); this foolish nation is believing Israel; the people who were not a people, but called the children of God, the people of God (Hosea 1:10 Hosea 2:23 1 Peter 2:9-10).
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Israel's fulness is when Israel obtains all the promises and purpose of God.

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Paul, in the book of Romans is addressing three existing groups:
1 Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.
2 Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ who believed the gospel of Christ as preached by Paul.
3 Jew and Gentile new testament saints who are in Christ by believing on the name of Jesus; believing Jesus is Lord and Christ. They believed Jesus died and rose again to fulfill the new covenant promised Israel in Jeremiah 31:31. They also believed the gospel of the kingdom, in which, Christ will come again to rule and reign with Israel on earth.
In Romans 11:13 Paul is speaking to Gentile new testament saints. Paul is speaking to the new testament Gentiles, not Gentiles in the church, the body of Christ, who believed Paul's gospel. Paul by any means would provoke them which are of his flesh, the unbelieving Jews, to salvation.
Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
In verses 6 and 7 above, those called are Jews or Gentiles called into the body of Christ, and Jews or Gentiles called into the kingdom through the new testament (1 Corinthians 1:2 1:24 7:18).
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Verses 24-26 above refers to the holy nation, the little flock (Luke 12:32), the believing remnant of Israel. According to verse 24 the believing Gentiles are also of those whom he has "called", they are part of the remnant of Israel.
Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
It is also evident by verse 27 and 30 above, that Paul is speaking of the remnant of Israel, which in context, would include Gentiles. In verse 30, Paul states that it is the Gentiles of the remnant of Israel who have attained rightousness by faith.
Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Paul, in the verse above is alluding to Psalm 145:9 and Psalm 145:18 below:
Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Psalm 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
In verse 13 above, Paul is referencing Joel 2:32 below:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:32 is referring specifically to the remnant of Israel as calling upon the name of the Lord.
In Romans 12 and 13, it is both Jew and Gentile who make up the election of grace who call upon the name of the Lord; both Jews and Gentiles who believed on the name of Jesus by the preaching of Peter and the apostles, and thereby, make up the remnant of Israel.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved includes both Jew and Gentile in the remnant of believing Israel, not the body of Christ.
The Gentiles in Romans 11:13 are Gentile new testament saints, not the Gentiles in the church, the body of Christ.
11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
In verse 17 above, "thou being a wild olive tree" is the Gentile new testament saints, part of the election of grace, part of the believing remnant of Israel. The remnant of Gentile new testament believers is the wild olive tree, grafted among the fruitfull branches of the believing Jews, the good olive tree. The broken off branches are unbelieving Israel.
It would not stand to reason to consider Gentiles in the body of Christ the "wild olive tree" because the body of Christ consists of both Jews and Gentiles. The Jews in the body could not be considered to be a "wild olive tree", but rather the natural olive tree; also, in the body there is neither Jew or Gentile (Galatians 3:28).
It can be seen from John 15 below that the broken off branches refers to unfruitful, unbelieving Israel.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
In Matthew below, the kingdom will be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to the fruitful nation of Israel. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, it is only the believing, promised seed (Romans 9:6).
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The election of grace, the remnant, would also be cut off if they fell into unbelief. They would not enter the promised Davidic kingdom.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
The remnant of new testament Gentiles were cut out of a wild olive tree and grafted into the good olive tree of believing Israel: so unbelieving Israel would be grafted back into their own good olive tree if they repented and believed.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Israel will be restored when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in; that is when the Gentiles, which would include Gentiles in the body of Christ, have fulfilled their purpose as determined by God. Jesus will come again to bring salvation to Israel.

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Jesus will fulfill the New Testament and restore, and bring salvation to Israel.
In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the remnant of believing new testament Gentiles. These Gentiles have, by the preaching of Peter and the apostles, believed on the name of Jesus as the crucified and risen Lord and Christ. These Gentiles have believed in the death, and shed blood of Jesus for the new testament. These Gentiles have believed the gospel of the kingdom; that by his resurrection, he will fulfill the promise of his coming to bring salvation. The Gentiles spoken of are the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are part of the election of grace, the believing remnant of Israel, who along with the little flock, will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ.

 

[Shasta]

[DougE;n2730572]The book of Hebrews was written to the kingdom church, the believing remnant of Israel, undergoing persecution and scattered (Acts 8:1-4).

Yes this group of believing Jews were being persecuted. Then again, so were many other believers (of all races). This happened in the FIRST CENTURY. Nothing in the letter to the Hebrews says that it applies to some future generation of Jewish believers undergoing persecution in the future (if that is what you are implying)

This book is not written directly to the church today, the body of Christ, although it is most profitable for our understanding. Misunderstanding doctrine in this book can be a snare to the believer and impact assurance of salvation.

Here we see your real motive for subverting the authority of Hebrews along with selected other NT writings. It is because the warnings it contains contradicts the teaching of unconditional eternal security. At least that is what you appear to be saying. Correct me if I am wrong. This idea of tailoring a canon devoid of moral imperatives was how Marcion came up with his edition of the NT in the Second Century. Of course no one in the early Church believed in unconditional eternal security which would not arise until some 1600 years, as a modification of some of Calvin's teachings.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God spoke in time past unto the fathers of Israel, and the us to whom the Son has spoken to, are the children of Israel.

In the LAST DAYS God spoke not only to the Jewish people but to ALL MANKIND. Jesus said:

9 This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10 And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins.
(1 John 4:9-10)
This sacrifice was for all mankind
2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [for believers], and not ONLY for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
(1 John 2:2)

The message of SALVATION (through the blood of Christ) is called "good news" in prophecy.
Jesus used the prophetic term Good News for the message He preached:

4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the GOSPEL preached to them (Matthew 11:4).

Paul uses the same term from prophecy for what he preached:
11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be SAVED...As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring GOOD NEWS!”” (Romans 10:11-18)

To which GOSPEL does the prophecy refer to the "Kingdom Gospel" or the "Gospel of Grace." It cannot mean BOTH in your paradigm because, in your view there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. This question needs to be addressed Since both Paul and the Gospel writers claim this scripture. For me it is easy to answer since I believe there IS and only ever was ONE GOSPEL.

The book of Hebrews is dealing with "these last days". The last days are spoken of as pertaining to the time in which the Davidic kingdom will be established on earth, in which, Christ will reign upon David's throne from Jerusalem along with the believing remnant of Israel (Isaiah 2:2-3 Luke 12:32).

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit which came first to Jewish and subsequently to Gentiles was also a sign of the LAST DAYS:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:9).
I hope you will agree that the events at Pentecost and throughout the NT period did not occur during the Davidic Kingdom.

1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Christ, by his own blood, entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for believing Israel (Hebrews 9:12). Christ died for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15).

1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Christ will establish his prophetic kingdom on earth (Psalm 45:6 Isaiah 9:6-7 Daniel 2:44).

Of course Hebrews does speak about future events, notably the coming of the Kingdom, but these scriptures do not set a date on ALL the other passages in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews himself says he was speaking from his perspective and to others who were living in the First Century:

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:8-9)
We see Christ on the throne possessing "all power in heaven and earth" but we do not yet see is everything in subjection to Him

 

[Shasta]

...

 

[DougE]

Yes this group of believing Jews were being persecuted. Then again, so were many other believers (of all races). This happened in the FIRST CENTURY. Nothing in the letter to the Hebrews says that it applies to some future generation of Jewish believers undergoing persecution in the future (if that is what you are implying)



Here we see your real motive for subverting the authority of Hebrews along with selected other NT writings. It is because the warnings it contains contradicts the teaching of unconditional eternal security. At least that is what you appear to be saying. Correct me if I am wrong. This idea of tailoring a canon devoid of moral imperatives was how Marcion came up with his edition of the NT in the Second Century. Of course no one in the early Church believed in unconditional eternal security which would not arise until some 1600 years, as a modification of some of Calvin's teachings.



In the LAST DAYS God spoke not only to the Jewish people but to ALL MANKIND. Jesus said:

9 This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10 And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins.
(1 John 4:9-10)
This sacrifice was for all mankind
2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [for believers], and not ONLY for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
(1 John 2:2)

The message of SALVATION (through the blood of Christ) is called "good news" in prophecy.
Jesus used the prophetic term Good News for the message He preached:

4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the GOSPEL preached to them (Matthew 11:4).

Paul uses the same term from prophecy for what he preached:
11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be SAVED...As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring GOOD NEWS!”” (Romans 10:11-18)

To which GOSPEL does the prophecy refer to the "Kingdom Gospel" or the "Gospel of Grace." It cannot mean BOTH in your paradigm because, in your view there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. This question needs to be addressed Since both Paul and the Gospel writers claim this scripture. For me it is easy to answer since I believe there IS and only ever was ONE GOSPEL.



The outpouring of the Holy Spirit which came first to Jewish and subsequently to Gentiles was also a sign of the LAST DAYS:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:9).
I hope you will agree that the events at Pentecost and throughout the NT period did not occur during the Davidic Kingdom.



Of course Hebrews does speak about future events, notably the coming of the Kingdom, but these scriptures do not set a date on ALL the other passages in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews himself says he was speaking from his perspective and to others who were living in the First Century:

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:8-9)
We see Christ on the throne possessing "all power in heaven and earth" but we do not yet see is everything in subjection to Him

Here we see your real motive for subverting the authority of Hebrews along with selected other NT writings. It is because the warnings it contains contradicts the teaching of unconditional eternal security. At least that is what you appear to be saying. Correct me if I am wrong. This idea of tailoring a canon devoid of moral imperatives was how Marcion came up with his edition of the NT in the Second Century. Of course no one in the early Church believed in unconditional eternal security which would not arise until some 1600 years, as a modification of some of Calvin's teachings.

The Bible teaches we are justified freely by faith Romans 3:24 and 5:1

 

[Shasta]

Here we see your real motive for subverting the authority of Hebrews along with selected other NT writings. It is because the warnings it contains contradicts the teaching of unconditional eternal security. At least that is what you appear to be saying. Correct me if I am wrong. This idea of tailoring a canon devoid of moral imperatives was how Marcion came up with his edition of the NT in the Second Century. Of course no one in the early Church believed in unconditional eternal security which would not arise until some 1600 years, as a modification of some of Calvin's teachings.

The Bible teaches we are justified freely by faith Romans 3:24 and 5:1

First of all, I notice that you did not bother to answer my previous objections to your dual gospel view. Instead, you merely say "we are justified freely by faith Romans 3:24 and 5:1" as if "free" meant that no response on our part is required. However, salvation is free only in the sense that we can give nothing of equal value IN EXCHANGE for it. God did ordain that we meet certain conditions to receive salvation namely, repentance and faith

James said that saving faith not merely the intellectual acceptance of set of teachings but involves an obedient response to the word of God (which he calls "works") That Paul also agrees with this is shown by his use of the phrase “OBEDIENCE OF FAITH.” Obedience involves not just the mind but the will.

5...through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,
(Romans 1:4-5 NKJV)
26...but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH — 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever
(Romans 16:26-27 NKJV)

The phrase “the obedience OF faith" or “obedience TO the faith”- understands the word faith to be the "object" OF obedience (grammatically called objective genitive). In other words, we are not saved by a mere knowledge OF truth, as the Gnostics taught, but by OBEDIENCE to it.
Paul goes as far as to describe salvation itself as COMING INTO OBEDIENCE to Christ:

…16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are SLAVES TO SIN leading to death, or to OBEDIENCE leading to RIGHTEOUSNESS? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you once WERE slaves to sin,YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY OBEYED the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18 You have been SET FREE from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.…
(Romans 6:16-17)

WHEN were the Roman believers SET FREE from sin? Did this change occur when they (intellectually) believed a set of doctrinal propositions ABOUT Christ? If that were the case, then everyone who has been taught truths ABOUT the Bible would be saved without any need for the direct working of the Holy Spirit…but this is no more than religion. Instead, Paul said they were set free when they as an ACT of faith OFFERED THEMSELVES to Christ.

 

[DougE]

Yes this group of believing Jews were being persecuted. Then again, so were many other believers (of all races). This happened in the FIRST CENTURY. Nothing in the letter to the Hebrews says that it applies to some future generation of Jewish believers undergoing persecution in the future (if that is what you are implying)



Here we see your real motive for subverting the authority of Hebrews along with selected other NT writings. It is because the warnings it contains contradicts the teaching of unconditional eternal security. At least that is what you appear to be saying. Correct me if I am wrong. This idea of tailoring a canon devoid of moral imperatives was how Marcion came up with his edition of the NT in the Second Century. Of course no one in the early Church believed in unconditional eternal security which would not arise until some 1600 years, as a modification of some of Calvin's teachings.



In the LAST DAYS God spoke not only to the Jewish people but to ALL MANKIND. Jesus said:

9 This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him. 10 And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins.
(1 John 4:9-10)
This sacrifice was for all mankind
2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins [for believers], and not ONLY for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
(1 John 2:2)

The message of SALVATION (through the blood of Christ) is called "good news" in prophecy.
Jesus used the prophetic term Good News for the message He preached:

4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the GOSPEL preached to them (Matthew 11:4).

Paul uses the same term from prophecy for what he preached:
11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be SAVED...As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring GOOD NEWS!”” (Romans 10:11-18)

To which GOSPEL does the prophecy refer to the "Kingdom Gospel" or the "Gospel of Grace." It cannot mean BOTH in your paradigm because, in your view there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. This question needs to be addressed Since both Paul and the Gospel writers claim this scripture. For me it is easy to answer since I believe there IS and only ever was ONE GOSPEL.



The outpouring of the Holy Spirit which came first to Jewish and subsequently to Gentiles was also a sign of the LAST DAYS:
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:9).
I hope you will agree that the events at Pentecost and throughout the NT period did not occur during the Davidic Kingdom.



Of course Hebrews does speak about future events, notably the coming of the Kingdom, but these scriptures do not set a date on ALL the other passages in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews himself says he was speaking from his perspective and to others who were living in the First Century:

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now WE DO NOT YET SEE all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:8-9)
We see Christ on the throne possessing "all power in heaven and earth" but we do not yet see is everything in subjection to Him

You said:
"Paul uses the same term from prophecy for what he preached:
11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be SAVED...As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring GOOD NEWS!”” (Romans 10:11-18)

To which GOSPEL does the prophecy refer to the "Kingdom Gospel" or the "Gospel of Grace." It cannot mean BOTH in your paradigm because, in your view there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. This question needs to be addressed Since both Paul and the Gospel writers claim this scripture. For me it is easy to answer since I believe there IS and only ever was ONE GOSPEL."

These verses deal with the remnant of Israel who believed on the name of Jesus (John 20:31) and the gospel of the kingdom. Gentiles also believed and became part of the remnant. See Romans 9:24-27 it is about the remnant.

 

[beloved57]

Wasnt none of the inspired word written to the jews as a mere physical people. For the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can they know them ! It doesn't matter what your ethnicity is !

 

[God's Truth]

Wasnt none of the inspired word written to the jews as a mere physical people. For the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can they know them ! It doesn't matter what your ethnicity is !

It mattered who was BLOOD RELATED to Abraham until Jesus came, because God promised that the Messiah would be a blood descendant to Abraham through Isaac.

Now that Jesus came, it no longer matters about being blood related to Abraham, and it only matters who is related to Jesus by coming to him for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[beloved57]

It mattered who was BLOOD RELATED to Abraham until Jesus came, because God promised that the Messiah would be a blood descendant to Abraham through Isaac.

Now that Jesus came, it no longer matters about being blood related to Abraham, and it only matters who is related to Jesus by coming to him for the forgiveness of sins.

Like I said, none of the scripture was for the unregenerate jew.

 

[Shasta]

You said:
"Paul uses the same term from prophecy for what he preached:
11 It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be SAVED...As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring GOOD NEWS!”” (Romans 10:11-18)

To which GOSPEL does the prophecy refer to the "Kingdom Gospel" or the "Gospel of Grace." It cannot mean BOTH in your paradigm because, in your view there are TWO DIFFERENT MESSAGES. This question needs to be addressed Since both Paul and the Gospel writers claim this scripture. For me it is easy to answer since I believe there IS and only ever was ONE GOSPEL."

These verses deal with the remnant of Israel who believed on the name of Jesus (John 20:31) and the gospel of the kingdom. Gentiles also believed and became part of the remnant. See Romans 9:24-27 it is about the remnant.

Yes, the REMNANT were those Jews who believed in Jesus as opposed to the majority of them which rejected Him. The Gentiles who were saved were grafted into the same olive tree with the believing Jews. When a branch is grafted into it becomes an organic part of the plant drawing water and nourishment from the same root as all other branches that are part of the tree. Paul never mentions any "Gospel of the Kingdom" that is separate and distinct from a "Gospel of Grace" I do not see that anywhere in Romans. You have imported the idea into the text from ideas that cannot be found there.

 

[God's Truth]

Like I said, none of the scripture was for the unregenerate jew.

No one is regenerate until they are saved, after obeying.

 

[beloved57]

No one is regenerate until they are saved, after obeying.

Matters not ones race the scripture isn't wtitten to the natural man.

 

[DougE]

Yes, the REMNANT were those Jews who believed in Jesus as opposed to the majority of them which rejected Him. The Gentiles who were saved were grafted into the same olive tree with the believing Jews. When a branch is grafted into it becomes an organic part of the plant drawing water and nourishment from the same root as all other branches that are part of the tree. Paul never mentions any "Gospel of the Kingdom" that is separate and distinct from a "Gospel of Grace" I do not see that anywhere in Romans. You have imported the idea into the text from ideas that cannot be found there.

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.

Romans 9:24-29 identifies the remnant of Israel is in view, as does Romans 11:5

Romans 9:24 Not only the Jews believed the gospel of the kingdom, and the preaching of Jesus and the twelve, but also Gentiles (Acts 10:45). This was not our gospel of grace. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 3:18 John 20:31).
Romans 9:27 This is identifying the remnant of Israel as what Paul is talking about. The remnant is the believing Jews and Gentiles who will enter the promised kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6).
Romans 9:30 Those Gentiles had faith, which Israel rejected.
Romans 11:5 At the time Paul was writing, the remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, were participants in the church.
Romans 11:11 The believing Gentiles would provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy.
Romans 11:13 Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:20 Unbelieving Israel was broken off the tree. The Gentiles were grafted in by faith
Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches.
Romans 11:25-27 Israel will be saved.

 

[Shasta]

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.

The Body of Christ is just a metaphor intended to illustrate the principle of UNITY in DIVERSITY:
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
(1 Corinthians 12:12-14)

Jews and Gentiles became ONE BODY when they became partakers of the Holy Spirit. Here we see that the SPIRIT is the Divine Agent that brings all believers (Jews and Gentiles) INTO union with Christ. By being connected to one Head the Spirit makes them all ONE BODY but this did not happen when Paul introduced the TERM "Body of Christ" Gentiles initially became connected to the Head when Peter went to see Cornelius:

15 And as I (Peter) began to speak, the HOLY SPIRIT FELL ON THEM as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the SAME GIFT as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles REPENTANCE TO LIFE.”
(Acts 11:15-16)

The Holy Spirit filled the Gentile believers at Cornelius' house in the VERY SAME WAY He had filled the JEWISH believers and Apostles at Pentecost. According to John the Baptist, the One who would "baptize in the Holy Spirit would be Jesus. He, through immersing us in the Holy Spirit, brings us into connection with Himself making us "the Body of Christ" It follows from this that, since the Gentiles, under the ministry of Peter, were made "partakers of the Holy Spirit" that they too became members of the "Body of Christ" even before this (co-joint) relationship became known in those terms. God is not limited by our choice of terminology. What matters is the reality of our spiritual experience.

There were some who believed the message of Jesus but had not received the Holy Spirit. This is why Peter and John were sent to minister the Holy Spirit to the converts of Philip who was an Evangelist

You seem to think that the term "remnant" describes Jews who "still believed the gospel of the Kingdom" and had not had these facts updated to include Paul's NEW gospel. Well this view does not follow from what the text says but has to be imported from a pre-existing paradigm not actually in the text. I do not see any explicit mention of MORE THAN ONE GOSPEL anywhere in Romans. If this were the case, then Paul would have addressed it directly instead of assuming his readers (who were a mixed group of Jews and Gentiles) would READ BETWEEN the LINES and figure it out.

Perhaps you could answer an obvious question I have never heard any one articulate: what is the difference between the "gospel" of Paul and Peter?

 

[God's Truth]

Matters not ones race the scripture isn't wtitten to the natural man.

The natural man means someone who ONLY wants to please their flesh. We are not only flesh, we are spirit too, and some people care about what is spiritual and they do NOT only want to please their flesh.

Those who only want to please their flesh with sin are NOT going to want to give up doing that, so they say what Jesus says is foolishness.

 

[Shasta]

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.

Romans 9:24-29 identifies the remnant of Israel is in view, as does Romans 11:5

Romans 9:24 Not only the Jews believed the gospel of the kingdom, and the preaching of Jesus and the twelve, but also Gentiles (Acts 10:45). This was not our gospel of grace. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 3:18 John 20:31).
Romans 9:27 This is identifying the remnant of Israel as what Paul is talking about. The remnant is the believing Jews and Gentiles who will enter the promised kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6).
Romans 9:30 Those Gentiles had faith, which Israel rejected.
Romans 11:5 At the time Paul was writing, the remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, were participants in the church.
Romans 11:11 The believing Gentiles would provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy.
Romans 11:13 Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel.
Romans 11:20 Unbelieving Israel was broken off the tree. The Gentiles were grafted in by faith
Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches.
Romans 11:25-27 Israel will be saved.

Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by GIVING THEM THE HOLY SPIRIT, just as He did to us, 9 and made NO DISTINCTION between us and them, purifying their hearts by FAITH. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
(Acts 15:7-11)

a. Peter speaks about the Gentiles RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT which joins us to the Head as members of the Body of Christ.
b. He knows that God made no redemptive distinction between Jews and Gentiles
c. This is demonstrated by an inner PURIFICATION of the HEART
d. This happened when the Gentiles PUT THEIR FAITH in Christ
e. By contrast, he says the Law was too heavy a yoke for the (unregenerate) Jews to bear. Thus, these deeds prescribed by the Mosaic law could not result in a transformation of human nature. This statement shows that Peter was not preaching Judaism
f. Peter further says that we are SAVED through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus which shows that He did not preach a message devoid of grace
So it looks like Paul was not the first person to teach about grace

 

[Right Divider]

So it looks like Paul was not the first person to teach about grace.

What was unique about Paul?
What did God uniquely reveal to Paul.
Why the need for Paul at all?

 

[God's Truth]

What was unique about Paul?
What did God uniquely reveal to Paul.
Why the need for Paul at all?

Paul was destroying the church. So tough Paul was sent to many dangerous places for the gospel. God used Paul to show that even the worst of sinners could be forgiven and saved.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul was destroying the church. So tough Paul was sent to many dangerous places for the gospel. God used Paul to show that even the worst of sinners could be forgiven and saved.

That's an extremely tiny part of the story of Paul.

Paul claims that God gave many things uniquely to him. Why do you ignore so many things?

 

[God's Truth]

That's an extremely tiny part of the story of Paul.

Paul claims that God gave many things uniquely to him. Why do you ignore so many things?

Like what so we can talk about it. There is nothing tiny about what I said. How do you ever get that suffering for the gospel in the way you made others suffer is a tiny thing? How do you ever get seeing such a sinner get saved is tiny?