When is the Sabbath?

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You keep stating this over and over again, as if it is a fact. There is simply no evidence for this, despite your videos.

All that Hillel II did was to change from observation of the New Moon to a calculated New Moon. There is no evidence that he 'fiddled' with the week. Nor does anything expect a separate 7 days cycle fit in with the Biblical Commandment to work 6 days then rest one day.

Your usual response is to say that I am of poor comprehension, that I am not as smart as you etc. (perhaps this is what is driving you here- the need to prove that you are smarter than everyone else). But you happen to be wrong, and somebody as smart as you ought to be able to take a critical view of things and figure that out.

There is no solid evidence that Hillel II changed the week. None. There are academic speculations, and long videos that don't include real evidence.

You shouldn't keep reminding me I'm cleverer than you or I might get a big head.

Chair if we trace the Sabbath using our familiar Gregorian/Julian calendars we get all the way back to Friday 1st of January 45BC which was the very first day of the new Roman Julian 7 day week calendar but the days before this date were calculated using the ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) and which had been used for hundreds years. Here's is the indisputable evidence for that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar

Meanwhile over a 1000 miles away in Israel the Israelites had of course been using using there own separate 7 day week calendar for hundreds of years prior to the Roman people (and their calendars) even existing. This means the Roman 7 day week created in 45BC and the Israelite 7 day week going all the way back to creation are totally separate and therefore the Sabbath can not be calculated using our modern Julian/Gregorian calendar.

The evidence is clear that the lunar Sabbath was gradually lost to history starting 70AD when the diaspora began to 359AD when Hillel II created the modern Jewish calendar and simply allowed the new Roman Julian 7 day rolling week to be used. This was because the Jews throughout the Roman Empire had been using the new Roman Julian 7 day rolling week for many generations before 359AD as it was by then the predominant calendar in use; And also because the lunar Sabbath could not be calculated as the Jews had been banned from living Jerusalem since the Simon Bar Kokhba revolt in 132AD, which meant they could no longer sight the new moon from Jerusalem and therefore could not even know when each month really began and thus could not even know when the lunar Sabbaths really were. In addition in 325AD the Roman Emperor Constantine forced the Jews to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

Now you said; "There is no solid evidence that Hillel II changed the week" Yet you don't provide any evidence to support this claim of yours, where as I have plenty of links that shows the masses of evidence that supports everything I'm explaining. I know it can be hard to understand but it makes perfect sense once you do. If you want to see any of this evidence all you have to do is just read or watch any or all of these links provided in the in the OP. However if you choose to ignore them then you are just talking out of ignorance.

This may help you should you wish to actually study something in this topic, you need only watch the first 11 minutes as the rest is not true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS9QUtF3fJY

 

[chair]

...

The evidence is clear that the lunar Sabbath was gradually lost to history starting 70AD when the diaspora began to 359AD when Hillel II created the modern Jewish calendar and simply allowed the new Roman Julian 7 day rolling week to be used. This was because the Jews throughout the Roman Empire had been using the new Roman Julian 7 day rolling week for many generations before 359AD as it was by then the predominant calendar in use; And also because the lunar Sabbath could not be calculated as the Jews had been banned from living Jerusalem since the Simon Bar Kokhba revolt in 132AD, which meant they could no longer sight the new moon from Jerusalem and therefore could not even know when each month really began and thus could not even know when the lunar Sabbaths really were. In addition in 325AD the Roman Emperor Constantine forced the Jews to worship on the pagan day called Saturday (named after the Roman god of agriculture; Saturnus).

Now you said; "There is no solid evidence that Hillel II changed the week" Yet you don't provide any evidence to support this claim of yours, where as I have plenty of links...

You have plenty of links, but no evidence. Don't try to shift the burden of proof to me. You are claiming that the Jews made a major change in their calendar- and you want me to prove that they didn't?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

You have plenty of links, but no evidence. Don't try to shift the burden of proof to me. You are claiming that the Jews made a major change in their calendar- and you want me to prove that they didn't?

In A.D. 130, Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem left after the First Roman-Jewish War of 6673. He promised to rebuild the city, but planning it as a pagan metropolis to be called Aelia Capitolina. A new pagan temple on the ruins of the Simage-emperior-hadrianecond Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter.[11] In addition, Hadrian abolished circumcision (brit milah), which he, as an avid Hellenist, viewed as mutilation.[12] A Roman coin inscribed Aelia Capitolina was issued in 132. Hadrian’s policies triggered the massive Jewish uprising, led by Bar Kokhba and Akiba ben Joseph. Following the outbreak of the revolt, Hadrian called his general Sextus Julius Severus from Britain, and troops were brought from as far as the Danube. Roman losses were very heavy, and it is believed that an entire legion, the XXII Deiotariana was destroyed. [13] Roman losses were so heavy that Hadrian’s report to the Roman Senate omitted the customary salutation “I and the legions are well” [14]. Hadrian’s army eventually defeated the revolt however. According to Cassius Dio, during the war 580,000 Jews were killed, 50 fortified towns and 985 villages razed.

After the end of the war Hadrian continued the religious persecution of Jews, according to the Babylonian Talmud [15]. He attempted to root out Judaism, which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions, prohibited the Torah law, the Hebrew calendar and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scroll was ceremoniously burned on the Temple Mount. At the former Temple sanctuary, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea, he removed the name from the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina, after the Philistines, the ancient enemies of the Jews. He re-established Jerusalem as the Roman pagan polis of Aelia Capitolina, and Jews were forbidden from entering it. Hadrian from Wikipedia the free Encyclopedia

This change from the luni-solar to a fixed solar calendar occurred in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against ALL Jewish customs . . .during the reign of Emperor Hadrian. With the fall of the Nazarene headquarters…at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread throughout ‘Christendom.’ This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped the concept of the week and its seventh-day. Iranaeus 2nd Century A.D.

The…calendar was used by ALL the original disciples of Yeshua…This original Nazarene lunar-solar calendar was supplanted by a Roman “planetary week” and calendar in 135 C.E. — when the “Bishops of the Circumcision” were displaced from Jerusalem. This began a three hundred year controversy concerning the TRUE CALENDAR AND CORRECT SABBATH: This [calendar] controversy arose after the exodus of the bishops of the circumcision and has continued until our time.” Epiphanius, HE4, 6, 4.

In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath. This intimate connection, records the Encyclopedia Biblica, between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week soon followed a development of its own, and it became the custom without paying any regard to the days of the month [i.e. the lunar month]. Encyclopedia Biblica, The MacMillan Company, 1899. p. 5290.

“The early Christians [Messiah followers] had at first adopted the Jewish [lunar] seven-day week with its numbered weekdays, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests to the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism.” Rest Days: A Study in Early Law and Morality. New York: The MacMillan Company, 1916, p. 220.

The present Jewish calendar was fixed in the fourth century. Jewish Theological Seminary of America, Letter by Louis Finkelstein to Dr. L. E. Froom, Feb. 20, 1939. Regarding the present Jewish calendar.

“… it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. … Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Savior a different way.” Life of Constantine, Eusebius, Book 3, Chapter 18, [recorded words of Constantine]

A Profession Faith from the Church of Constantinople in the year 325 C.E. Under the Emperor Constantine:

I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms. unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of The Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with The Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils. Source: The Conflict Of The Church And The Synagogue Athenaeum, Parks, James, New York, 1974, p. 397-398.

The second half of the above oath is as follows:

I accept all customs, rites, legalism, and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontificus Maximus (high priests of Rome), propitiations, and feasts, and the New Sabbath Sol dei (day of the sun), all new chants and observances, and all the foods and drinks of the Romans. In other words, I absolutely accept everything Roman, every new law, rite and custom, of Rome, and the New Roman Religion. A Profession of Faith from the Church of Constantinople in the year 325 C.E. Under the Emperor Constantine

Under the reign of Constantius the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that . . . the computation of the [astro-luni-solar] calendar [was] forbidden under pain of severe punishment. The Jewish Encyclopedia, Calendar. [Search for Calendar. Select Calendar, History of. The Quote is the last paragraph under the Talmudic Section.

http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/lunar-sabbaths-stunning-historical-evidence/

 

[Jacob]

I know, Kislev is the Babylonian name which the Jews adopted.

It is not the calendar from Torah which is observed by observation.

 

[Jacob]

Okay, as long as you understand it.


Jacob the Julian calendar began on the 1st January 45BC and this was a Friday. What was the day before?

I do not know. I do not observe your calendar. I assume that you are promoting the Julian calendar as you have mentioned it here in your post to me.

 

[chair]

In A.D. 130, Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem left after the First Roman-Jewish War of 6673. He promised to rebuild the city, but planning it as a pagan metropolis to be called Aelia Capitolina. A new pagan temple on the ruins of the Simage-emperior-hadrianecond Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter.[11] In addition, Hadrian abolished circumcision (brit milah), which he, as an avid Hellenist, viewed as mutilation.[12] A Roman coin inscribed Aelia Capitolina was issued in 132. Hadrian’s policies triggered the massive Jewish uprising, led by Bar Kokhba and Akiba ben Joseph. Following the outbreak of the revolt, Hadrian called his general Sextus Julius Severus from Britain, and troops were brought from as far as the Danube. Roman losses were very heavy, and it is believed that an entire legion, the XXII Deiotariana was destroyed. [13] Roman losses were so heavy that Hadrian’s report to the Roman Senate omitted the customary salutation “I and the legions are well” [14]. Hadrian’s army eventually defeated the revolt however. According to Cassius Dio, during the war 580,000 Jews were killed, 50 fortified towns and 985 villages razed.

After the end of the war Hadrian continued the religious persecution of Jews, according to the Babylonian Talmud [15]. He attempted to root out Judaism, which he saw as the cause of continuous rebellions, prohibited the Torah law, the Hebrew calendar and executed Judaic scholars. The sacred scroll was ceremoniously burned on the Temple Mount. At the former Temple sanctuary, he installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea, he removed the name from the map and replaced it with Syria Palaestina, after the Philistines, the ancient enemies of the Jews. He re-established Jerusalem as the Roman pagan polis of Aelia Capitolina, and Jews were forbidden from entering it. Hadrian from Wikipedia the free Encyclopedia

So far, this is historical background information,

This change from the luni-solar to a fixed solar calendar occurred in Rome during the repressive measures which were enacted against ALL Jewish customs . . .during the reign of Emperor Hadrian. With the fall of the Nazarene headquarters…at Jerusalem, this new Roman calendar quickly spread throughout ‘Christendom.’ This new calendar not only replaced yearly festival dates such as Passover, but it also revamped the concept of the week and its seventh-day. Iranaeus 2nd Century A.D.

This is interesting. It is not clear what Iranaeus is referring to. Is this really about how the Jews changed their calendar?
A request: Where exactly in Iranaeus’ writings is this taken from? What you posted does not seem like his original text. I see it repeated many times on the internet- but no solid source. You can find his writings here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html

The…calendar was used by ALL the original disciples of Yeshua…This original Nazarene lunar-solar calendar was supplanted by a Roman “planetary week” and calendar in 135 C.E. — when the “Bishops of the Circumcision” were displaced from Jerusalem. This began a three hundred year controversy concerning the TRUE CALENDAR AND CORRECT SABBATH: This [calendar] controversy arose after the exodus of the bishops of the circumcision and has continued until our time.” Epiphanius, HE4, 6, 4.
In the years following Clement of Alexandria’s time, an ominous change started to take place that was to radically change the Christian concept of the Sabbath. This intimate connection, records the Encyclopedia Biblica, between the week and the month was soon dissolved. It is certain that the week soon followed a development of its own, and it became the custom without paying any regard to the days of the month [i.e. the lunar month]. Encyclopedia Biblica, The MacMillan Company, 1899. p. 5290.

The Encyclopedia Biblica is available online. Page 5290 discusses the week- but does not include what you quoted above.
https://archive.org/stream/Encyclop...ncyclodaediaBiblica_Vol_IV#page/n689/mode/2up
What he does claim, based on speculation, is that the weekly calendar originally was as you described, and later settled into its current form. He does not link this occurrence to Roman influence. He thinks that that this happened very early- in Biblical times.

“The early Christians [Messiah followers] had at first adopted the Jewish [lunar] seven-day week with its numbered weekdays, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests to the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism.” Rest Days: A Study in Early Law and Morality. New York: The MacMillan Company, 1916, p. 220.

Interesting, but not relevant.

The present Jewish calendar was fixed in the fourth century. Jewish Theological Seminary of America, Letter by Louis Finkelstein to Dr. L. E. Froom, Feb. 20, 1939. Regarding the present Jewish calendar.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, this refers to the calculation of the New Moon, as opposed to observing it.

“… it appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous sin, and are, therefore, deservedly afflicted with blindness of soul. … Let us then have nothing in common with the detestable Jewish crowd; for we have received from our Savior a different way.” Life of Constantine, Eusebius, Book 3, Chapter 18, [recorded words of Constantine]
A Profession Faith from the Church of Constantinople in the year 325 C.E. Under the Emperor Constantine:
I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms. unleavened breads & sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and Synagogues, and the food and drink of The Hebrews; in one word, I renounce everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with The Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils. Source: The Conflict Of The Church And The Synagogue Athenaeum, Parks, James, New York, 1974, p. 397-398.
The second half of the above oath is as follows:
I accept all customs, rites, legalism, and feasts of the Romans, sacrifices, prayers, purifications with water, sanctifications by Pontificus Maximus (high priests of Rome), propitiations, and feasts, and the New Sabbath Sol dei (day of the sun), all new chants and observances, and all the foods and drinks of the Romans. In other words, I absolutely accept everything Roman, every new law, rite and custom, of Rome, and the New Roman Religion. A Profession of Faith from the Church of Constantinople in the year 325 C.E. Under the Emperor Constantine

Why is the above relevant? It almost seems like you are trying to obscure the real argument with irrelevant quotations.

Under the reign of Constantius the persecutions of the Jews reached such a height that . . . the computation of the [astro-luni-solar] calendar [was] forbidden under pain of severe punishment. The Jewish Encyclopedia, Calendar. [Search for Calendar. Select Calendar, History of. The Quote is the last paragraph under the Talmudic Section.
http://www.thecreatorscalendar.com/lunar-sabbaths-stunning-historical-evidence/

So the last section says, once again, that the Jews were persecuted. That is not exactly a secret.
The only possible evidence in all of the above is Iraneaus. The rest is chaff (sorry, but that is the case). I don’t see an actual quote from Iraneaus, nor the context in which he is discussing this.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So far, this is historical background information,

This is interesting. It is not clear what Iranaeus is referring to. Is this really about how the Jews changed their calendar?
A request: Where exactly in Iranaeus’ writings is this taken from? What you posted does not seem like his original text. I see it repeated many times on the internet- but no solid source. You can find his writings here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html



The Encyclopedia Biblica is available online. Page 5290 discusses the week- but does not include what you quoted above.
https://archive.org/stream/Encyclop...ncyclodaediaBiblica_Vol_IV#page/n689/mode/2up
What he does claim, based on speculation, is that the weekly calendar originally was as you described, and later settled into its current form. He does not link this occurrence to Roman influence. He thinks that that this happened very early- in Biblical times.


Interesting, but not relevant.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, this refers to the calculation of the New Moon, as opposed to observing it.

Why is the above relevant? It almost seems like you are trying to obscure the real argument with irrelevant quotations.

So the last section says, once again, that the Jews were persecuted. That is not exactly a secret.
The only possible evidence in all of the above is Iraneaus. The rest is chaff (sorry, but that is the case). I don’t see an actual quote from Iraneaus, nor the context in which he is discussing this.

I was tired last night and later thought of a better way to explain all this with more specific evidence. However I liked your response to my last rushed post. Very measured, thank you.

Let's consider what happened step by step and if you need any evidence of each step then I will provide it. Bare in mind there is not evidence that contradicts what I am explaining below.

We can safely agree that the ancient Hebrew calendar with it's Sabbath was in use up to the diaspora in 70 AD.

1. After the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews no longer had a temple to sacrifice in nor a priesthood to do it as they had all been killed. The Romans virtually killed everyone in Jerusalem and Massada where the rest of the rebels ran to. This left the Jewish population decimated and of the Jews living else where in Israel who had survived, by cow-towing to the Romans, very few return or decided to live in Jerusalem after 70AD. This is well recorded in History (do you need me to give proof?). However, the Jews could still sight the new moon from Jerusalem and therefore determine when the Sabbath, new moon and annual feasts were.

2. After the Simon Bar Kokbha revolt and Hadrian's violent response between 132 - 135 AD which was one of Rome's largest ever military responses to rebellion in the empire with some 13 legions being sent, (only 3 or 4 were sent in 70 AD for example). Hadrian then banned all Jews from even being with in eye sight of Jerusalem by pain of death. This is well recorded in history and after this there were even fewer Jews living in Israel (do you need me to give proof?). However, this meant the Jews could no longer visually sight the new moon from Jerusalem.

3. Over the successive generation from 70 AD onward these traumatic events forced the Jews to look for sanctuary within the rest of empire and beyond, they were refugees scattered in small groups and families, struggling to survive in foreign countries where they were more often than not treated as the lowest of the low, (do you need me to give proof of this?). Even though the new moon could be sighted from Jerusalem up to 135 AD this meant nothing to these poor survivors as there was no way that the monthly sightings could be sent to them quickly enough for them to know. Basically their whole ancient Hebrew calendar was no longer in effect.

4. Instead the Jews found themselves living in an empire which was being taken over by new Roman Julian calendar that had started in the province of Rome on 1st January 45 BC which was a Friday. However the day before this date was calculated using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) (do you need me to give you proof of this again?) and which had been used for hundreds years. Thus the new Julian calendar week had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, they were totally separate. Can you see this now?

5. From 135 AD to 325 AD over half a dozen generations had come and gone, with each generation continuing the struggle to survive. While they tried to maintain there traditions they could not keep there new moons or Sabbaths at the right times according to their ancient Jewish calendar. They could try to sight the new moon from wherever they were but then this would be on different days compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west; And they knew this! Meanwhile they were living in countries that were using the new 7 day Julian week more and more and if any of the Jews wanted to work in these countries they would have to work according to this new week and with each new generation it became harder and harder to not fit in with this new working week system.

6. Then in 325 AD Constantine made an order that forced Jews to worship on Saturdays (do you need me to give proof of this?). This now made it impossible to keep the Sabbath at all anywhere in the empire.

7. In 359 AD Hillel created the new Jewish modern calendar which uses the Mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle which allows all the Jews to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live (even though half of the time the new moon day using this calculation is a day out). (Do you need me to give proof of this?). However, Hillel dropped any notion of trying to get the Jews to go back to using the ancient lunar Sabbath held on every 7th day from new moon day i.e. days 8, 15, 22, & 29 (from new moon day) for all the reasons above and as explained in the OP.

8. The ancient lunar Sabbath held on every 7th day from new moon day i.e. days 8, 15, 22, & 29 (from new moon day) is described in the Bible, and can be studied here:

https://guidetothebible.wordpress.com/start-reading-the-book/

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm

Videos:

The Creator's Calendar

9 min long (or faster with the high speed setting):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzFGEfgP_8

15 mins (or faster with the high speed setting):

International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls

79 min (or faster with the high speed setting):

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wJq8tKvnemU

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

It is not the calendar from Torah which is observed by observation.

Depends which calendar you're talking about:

The ancient Hebrew calendar was determined by visually citing the new moon from Jerusalem.

The modern Jewish calendar created by Hillel II in 359AD uses the Mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle which allows all the Jews today to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live (even though half of the time the new moon day using this calculation is a day out compared to the visually sited new moon from Jerusalem).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I do not know. I do not observe your calendar. I assume that you are promoting the Julian calendar as you have mentioned it here in your post to me.

No way, the Julian calendar is terrible and has cause the Sabbath to be forgotten. The Jews who found themselves living in the Roman Empire after the diaspora found themselves living in countries that were being taken over by new Roman Julian calendar that had started in the province of Rome on 1st January 45 BC which was a Friday. However the day before this date was calculated using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) (do you need me to give you proof of this again?) and which had been used for hundreds years. Thus the new Julian calendar week had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, they were totally separate. Can you see this now?

 

[chair]

I was tired last night and later thought of a better way to explain all this with more specific evidence. However I liked your response to my last rushed post. Very measured, thank you. ...

Before I respond in detail- yes, I want a source on #6.
And you owe me a source on Iranaeus as well.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Before I respond in detail- yes, I want a source on #6.
And you owe me a source on Iranaeus as well.

Constantine changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday because of the hatred he and most 'Christians' had for the Jews; this is from an article with ancient Roman sources:

The custom of Sunday worship was welcomed by Christians who desired to differentiate themselves from the Jews, whom they hated because of the Jews’ rejection of the Savior. The first day of the week began to be recognized as both a religious and civil holiday. By the end of the second century, Christians considered it sinful to work on Sunday.

The Roman emperor Constantine, a former sun-worshiper, professed conversion to Christianity, though his subsequent actions suggest the “conversion” was more of a political move than a genuine heart change. Constantine named himself Bishop of the Catholic Church and enacted the first civil law regarding Sunday observance in A.D. 321.

On the venerable day of the sun let the magistrate and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however, persons engaged in agricultural work may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain growing or for vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. —Schaff’s History of the Christian Church, vol. III, chap. 75.

Note that Constantine’s law did not even mention Sabbath but referred to the mandated rest day as a “the venerable day of the sun.” And how kind he was to allow people to observe it as it was convenient. Contrast this with God’s command to observe the Sabbath “even during the plowing season and harvest” (Exodus 34:21)! Perhaps the church leaders noticed this laxity as well, for just four years later, in A.D. 325, Pope Sylvester officially named Sunday “the Lord’s Day,” and in A.D. 338, Eusebius, the court bishop of Constantine, wrote, “All things whatsoever that it was the duty to do on the Sabbath (the seventh day of the week) we (Constantine, Eusebius, and other bishops) have transferred to the Lord’s Day (the first day of the week) as more appropriately belonging to it.”

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-r...6/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change

This left Saturday for the Jews to worship on, separate from the Christians but of course both days are nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar.

You'll have to forgive me regarding the source on Iranaeus as I couldn't find it too, not to say it doesn't exist but i posted in haste while tired and didn't go through it as thoroughly as I should have. That's why I said that I later thought of a more specific way to explain all this. I want to try and prove each of the 8 steps I laid out for you.

 

[Jacob]

Depends which calendar you're talking about:

The ancient Hebrew calendar was determined by visually citing the new moon from Jerusalem.

The modern Jewish calendar created by Hillel II in 359AD uses the Mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle which allows all the Jews today to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live (even though half of the time the new moon day using this calculation is a day out compared to the visually sited new moon from Jerusalem).

Shalom

No way, the Julian calendar is terrible and has cause the Sabbath to be forgotten. The Jews who found themselves living in the Roman Empire after the diaspora found themselves living in countries that were being taken over by new Roman Julian calendar that had started in the province of Rome on 1st January 45 BC which was a Friday. However the day before this date was calculated using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) (do you need me to give you proof of this again?) and which had been used for hundreds years. Thus the new Julian calendar week had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, they were totally separate. Can you see this now?

Shalom

 

[chair]

I was tired last night and later thought of a better way to explain all this with more specific evidence. However I liked your response to my last rushed post. Very measured, thank you.
Let's consider what happened step by step and if you need any evidence of each step then I will
provide it. Bare in mind there is not evidence that contradicts what I am explaining below.
We can safely agree that the ancient Hebrew calendar with it's Sabbath was in use up to the diaspora in 70 AD.
1. After the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews no longer had a temple to sacrifice in nor a priesthood to do it as they had all been killed. The Romans virtually killed everyone in Jerusalem and Massada where the rest of the rebels ran to. This left the Jewish population decimated and of the Jews living else where in Israel who had survived, by cow-towing to the Romans, very few return or decided to live in Jerusalem after 70AD. This is well recorded in History (do you need me to give proof?). However, the Jews could still sight the new moon from Jerusalem and therefore determine when the Sabbath, new moon and annual feasts were.
2. After the Simon Bar Kokbha revolt and Hadrian's violent response between 132 - 135 AD which was one of Rome's largest ever military responses to rebellion in the empire with some 13 legions being sent, (only 3 or 4 were sent in 70 AD for example). Hadrian then banned all Jews from even being with in eye sight of Jerusalem by pain of death. This is well recorded in history and after this there were even fewer Jews living in Israel (do you need me to give proof?). However, this meant the Jews could no longer visually sight the new moon from Jerusalem.
3. Over the successive generation from 70 AD onward these traumatic events forced the Jews to look for sanctuary within the rest of empire and beyond, they were refugees scattered in small groups and families, struggling to survive in foreign countries where they were more often than not treated as the lowest of the low, (do you need me to give proof of this?). Even though the new moon could be sighted from Jerusalem up to 135 AD this meant nothing to these poor survivors as there was no way that the monthly sightings could be sent to them quickly enough for them to know. Basically their whole ancient Hebrew calendar was no longer in effect.

Up to this point you are describing the difficult situation that the Jews of that era lived in, and that they must have lost the ability to maintain their calendar, given the circumstances.
This point is flawed. It is historically inaccurate. The Sanhedrin survived the destruction of the temple, and the Bar Kochba revolt. A Jewish community continued in the Galilee. Detail in this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin

4. Instead the Jews found themselves living in an empire which was being taken over by new Roman Julian calendar that had started in the province of Rome on 1st January 45 BC which was a Friday. However the day before this date was calculated using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) (do you need me to give you proof of this again?) and which had been used for hundreds years. Thus the new Julian calendar week had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, they were totally separate. Can you see this now?

OK- but so what? Recall that the Sanhedrin still existed in Israel.

5. From 135 AD to 325 AD over half a dozen generations had come and gone, with each generation continuing the struggle to survive. While they tried to maintain there traditions they could not keep there new moons or Sabbaths at the right times according to their ancient Jewish calendar. They could try to sight the new moon from wherever they were but then this would be on different days compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west; And they knew this! Meanwhile they were living in countries that were using the new 7 day Julian week more and more and if any of the Jews wanted to work in these countries they would have to work according to this new week and with each new generation it became harder and harder to not fit in with this new working week system.

Again, the Sanhedrin still existed and declared when the new Moon was. What you wrote here (#5) is speculation on your part.

6. Then in 325 AD Constantine made an order that forced Jews to worship on Saturdays (do you need me to give proof of this?). This now made it impossible to keep the Sabbath at all anywhere in the empire.

No, he didn’t make such an order. You explained what he did actually order when I asked you for more details on this.

7. In 359 AD Hillel created the new Jewish modern calendar which uses the Mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle which allows all the Jews to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live (even though half of the time the new moon day using this calculation is a day out). (Do you need me to give proof of this?).

OK

However, Hillel dropped any notion of trying to get the Jews to go back to using the ancient lunar Sabbath held on every 7th day from new moon day i.e. days 8, 15, 22, & 29 (from new moon day) for all the reasons above and as explained in the OP.

He didn’t “drop the notion”- as it didn’t exist. This is speculation. Unless you have a source from Jewish, Roman, or Church that indicates this to be true.
You tend to confuse speculation with fact.

8. The ancient lunar Sabbath held on every 7th day from new moon day i.e. days 8, 15, 22, & 29 (from new moon day) is described in the Bible, and can be studied here:

Yes, I know about the videos. I will not watch them again or respond further to them.
You have a lot of speculation in your argument, and no relevant facts. Don’t you see how weak your argument is?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Up to this point you are describing the difficult situation that the Jews of that era lived in, and that they must have lost the ability to maintain their calendar, given the circumstances.
This point is flawed. It is historically inaccurate. The Sanhedrin survived the destruction of the temple, and the Bar Kochba revolt. A Jewish community continued in the Galilee. Detail in this Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin

OK- but so what? Recall that the Sanhedrin still existed in Israel.

Again, the Sanhedrin still existed and declared when the new Moon was. What you wrote here (#5) is speculation on your part.

Yes I know the Sanhedrin mostly survived, I said the priests were killed along with most of the Jews in Jerusalem etc. In fact Hillel was one of those Sanhedrin who had been trying to preserve their ancient Hebrew lunar calendar;

"However, since the Hebrew calendar was based on witnesses' testimony, that had become far too dangerous to collect, Hillel II recommended change to a mathematically based calendar that was adopted at a clandestine, and maybe final, meeting in 358 CE. This marked the last universal decision made by that body." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin

No, he didn’t make such an order. You explained what he did actually order when I asked you for more details on this.

Okay so by Constantine forcing the Christians/Catholic church to move the day of rest to Sunday obviously meant the Jews could either break the Sabbath by working in order to feed themselves and their families, or become even more impoverished. Yes I know some could have worked for themselves or found ways round this but its was yet another hardship they had and (Even though it wasn't really the real Sabbath) it was setting up another argument with in the body of Christ which the devil loves as it caused even more confusion.

He didn’t “drop the notion”- as it didn’t exist. This is speculation. Unless you have a source from Jewish, Roman, or Church that indicates this to be true.
You tend to confuse speculation with fact.

As shown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin Hillel did change how new moon was calculated as a direct result of the Jews having to live so far from where the new moon had to be sighted, as they could not transmit information over vest distances as we can today.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

He didn’t “drop the notion”- as it didn’t exist. This is speculation. Unless you have a source from Jewish, Roman, or Church that indicates this to be true.
You tend to confuse speculation with fact.

Yes, I know about the videos. I will not watch them again or respond further to them.
You have a lot of speculation in your argument, and no relevant facts. Don’t you see how weak your argument is?

I'm posting this here separately as it is the most important part to understand, which you are not getting and the reason you are not getting it is for the very reason you state; "I will not watch them again or respond further to them." This includes the articles I have posted in the OP.

Because in those articles and videos is information from both Jewish and Church sources i.e. The Bible. But unless you study them you would not know that. So you have the choice continue to ignore the information in the Bible that explains God's Calendar and remain ignorant or actually study it and understand it.

 

[chair]

As shown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin Hillel did change how new moon was calculated as a direct result of the Jews having to live so far from where the new moon had to be sighted, as they could not transmit information over vest distances as we can today.

He instituted the calculation, due to the circumstances at the time. That is not evidence for your calendar theory.

Do you understand what evidence is?

It seems you have this theory that you are dead-set on, and you bring in all sorts of facts that are only remotely related, mix them up with speculation, and shore up, at least in your mind, your theory. It isn't convincing. It hardly constitutes a logical argument.

 

[chair]

I'm posting this here separately as it is the most important part to understand, which you are not getting and the reason you are not getting it is for the very reason you state; "I will not watch them again or respond further to them." This includes the articles I have posted in the OP.

Because in those articles and videos is information from both Jewish and Church sources i.e. The Bible. But unless you study them you would not know that. So you have the choice continue to ignore the information in the Bible that explains God's Calendar and remain ignorant or actually study it and understand it.

We have spent considerable time in the last few posts going over your arguments in detail. There is nothing convincing there. I have read some of your text links. I have watched part of your videos (admittedly not much), and did not see anything convincing there either. I am not running away from the argument- as far as I can tell, you don't have one. You haven't even convinced me to spend more time on your video links.

The claim about the calendar is interesting, but unless you can give me a solid reason to spend more time on it, I have other things to do with my time.

It has been interesting. Thanks for your time.

Chair

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

We have spent considerable time in the last few posts going over your arguments in detail. There is nothing convincing there. I have read some of your text links. I have watched part of your videos (admittedly not much), and did not see anything convincing there either. I am not running away from the argument- as far as I can tell, you don't have one. You haven't even convinced me to spend more time on your video links.

The claim about the calendar is interesting, but unless you can give me a solid reason to spend more time on it, I have other things to do with my time.

It has been interesting. Thanks for your time.

Chair

"I have read some of your text links. I have watched part of your videos (admittedly not much)"

That says it all, that's all anyone needs to know why you have not understood how God's Calendar works as described in the Bible. You have wasted only your own time as I have gain valuable information from our debate as to how I can better explain God's calendar and as a result have been able to show two other Christians on another forum site how God's Calendar is a lunar-solar Calendar as described in the scriptures. So thank you for ALL your time I don't think I could have done it without you.

CleverDan

 

[chair]

"I have read some of your text links. I have watched part of your videos (admittedly not much)"

That says it all, that's all anyone needs to know why you have not understood how God's Calendar works as described in the Bible. You have wasted only your own time as I have gain valuable information from our debate as to how I can better explain God's calendar and as a result have been able to show two other Christians on another forum site how God's Calendar is a lunar-solar Calendar as described in the scriptures. So thank you for ALL your time I don't think I could have done it without you.

CleverDan

With all due respect- you don't have an argument. What you have presented doesn't justify spending even more time on this.

Ciao

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

With all due respect- you don't have an argument. What you have presented doesn't justify spending even more time on this.

Ciao

Yes I know that's how you feel, where as I know that it is time well spent and will continue to do so, look:

1. It is reasonable to assume that Jesus kept the Sabbath and therefore the ancient Hebrew calendar and it's Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts must have been common knowledge at this time.

2. After the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews no longer had a temple to sacrifice in nor a priesthood to do it as they had all been killed. The Romans virtually killed everyone in Jerusalem and Massada where the rest of the rebels ran to. This left the Jewish population decimated and of the Jews living else where in Israel who had survived, by cow-towing to the Romans, very few return or decided to live in Jerusalem after 70 AD. The Sanhedrin however did mange to largely survive and formed a seat of rabbinic learning in the south of Galilee, where they maintained the practice of keeping the ancient Hebrew calendar and it's Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts by travelling to Jerusalem each month to sight the new moon.

3. Over the successive generations from 70 AD onwards these traumatic events had forced the Jews to look for sanctuary within the rest of the Roman Empire and beyond in what was called the Diaspora. They were refugees scattered in small groups and families, struggling to survive in foreign countries where they were more often than not treated as the lowest of the low.

4. Then after the Simon Bar Kokbha revolt between 132 - 135 AD and Emperor Hadrian's violent response which was one of Rome's largest ever military responses to rebellion in the empire with some 13 legions being sent, (only 4 were sent in 70 AD for example); Hadrian then banned all Jews from even being with in eye sight of Jerusalem by pain of death and after this there were even fewer Jews living in Israel. This also meant the Sanhedrin could no longer visually sight the new moon from Jerusalem in order to know when their Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts were. Even though the new moon could be sighted from Jerusalem up to 135 AD this meant nothing to the poor survivors living abroad as there was no way that the monthly sightings could be sent to them quickly enough for them to calculate when the Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts were meant to be. They could try to sight the new moon from wherever they were but then this would be on different days compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west.

5. Instead the Jews found themselves living in an empire which was being taken over by the new Roman Julian calendar, named after Julius Caesar. This new calendar that first took effect in the province of Rome had started on 1st January 45 BC and this day was named 'Friday' (each the 7 days of this new calendar was given a new name, named after a Roman god). However the day before 1st January 45 BC the Romans calculated dates using a completely different ancient Roman calendar that had an 8 day week, where the days were simply named A,B,C,D,E,F,G & H (8 days) and which had been used for hundreds years by the Romans in the province of Rome. The new Julian calendar 7 day week was created by Sosigenes the Greek Mathematician and it had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar week, as they were totally separate from each other. It then took about 400 years before all the other countries within the Roman Empire were eventually forced to use the new Julian calendar as recorded in history.

6. As the new Roman Julian 7 day week that began separately from the ancient Hebrew week began to take over the Roman Empire, the early church, which was mainly made up of non-Jews (after Peter the first Pope), simply used the new Julian calendar's 7th day (Saturday) as the Sabbath, even though it had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrew calendar and its reckoning of when the Sabbath was. The Roman Catholic church carried on with this regardless of the fact that the Julian calendar was totally different from the ancient Hebrew calendar.

7. From 135 AD to 321 AD over half a dozen generations came and went, with each generation of impoverished Jews continuing the struggle to survive within the Roman Empire. As each generation lived and worked in these countries that were using the new 7 day Julian week, it meant that more and more Jews were forced to work on their Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar or face becoming even more impoverished. While they tried to maintain as much of their traditions as possible most could not keep their Sabbaths, new moons or annual feasts on the correct day as calculated by their ancient Hebrew calendar. As said even if they tried to sight the new moon from wherever they were living this would not be on the same day compared to Jews who were living further to the east or west and more importantly on the day the new moon would be seen from Jerusalem. As each generation gradually came and went it became harder and harder to NOT fit in with the new Roman Julian 7 day working week. Eventually over these generations the ancient reckoning of the Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar was practically lost to the Jews living in the Empire and Saturday became more and more accepted as the day of rest.

8. Then in 321 AD the Roman Emperor Constantine who hated the Jews (along with most of the rest of the Roman world) changed the day of rest on the new Julian calendar from Saturday to Sunday, this forced the impoverished Jews to either work on what many though by now was the Sabbath (Saturday) or become even more impoverished. This caused and has since caused even more confusion amongst Christians and Jews as to when the real Sabbath is, as really it hasn't never been on Saturday or Sunday on the Roman Julian calendar but has always been calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar.

9. In response to all this in 359 AD Sanhedrin Rabbi Hillel II in Israel created the new Jewish modern calendar which uses the mathematically calculated Metonic 19 year lunar cycle, that allows all Jews to celebrate all of their new moon days and annual feast days on the same day no matter where in the world they live (even though half of the time it is a day out compared to the visually sighted new moon from Jerusalem). However, although this gives a good approximation of when the Jewish new moon days and annual feast are, Hillel appears to have not attempted to try and get the Jews to also follow the original Sabbath as calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar. The reason for this was because the Jews who were scattered across the Roman Empire and beyond who were simply struggling to survive had all become so used to the new Julian calendar and it's Saturday Sabbath and that if they would have tried to go back to worshipping on the correct day of the ancient Hebrew calendar it would have placed a further burden on them and put them at risk of being even more persecuted, because taking days off work that were calculated by the ancient Hebrew calendar rather than fitting in with the new Saturday (Or even Sunday) day of rest would have caused confusion and resentment towards them.

10. The Hebrew calendar and it reckoning of when the Sabbath really was drifted from human history to be almost forgotten. This calendar that was once common knowledge to the ancient Hebrews and the authors of the Bible never thought it necessary to explain this calendar in one convenient place. However, hidden amongst the scriptures of the Bible are many references to the ancient Hebrew calendar and its Sabbaths, new moons and annual feasts, which can be sifted out and reconstructed. This is not an easy thing to do however, if it was then more people would know about it but then most people don't even know about all the above information either, so it is understandable if you have never heard about where and how these snippets of scripture explain the ancient Hebrew calendar. Their are various studies on the ancient Hebrew calendar as describes in the Bible and here are a few that are helpful:
Articles:
https://guidetothebible.wordpress.co...ding-the-book/

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm

Videos:
Lunar Sabbaths: Three Months in a Row | Part 1 - The Lunar Sabbath Restored!
9 min long (or faster with the high speed setting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUxMRBXuaqI
The Creator's Calendar
9 min long (or faster with the high speed setting):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzFGEfgP_8

15 mins (or faster with the high speed setting):

International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls

79 min (or faster with the high speed setting):

Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=wJq8tKvnemU