What was missing from God’s existence that caused him to create Creation?

JudgeRightly

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By the logical implication of your theology that HE created the system of human progeny and hooked our lives into Adam's sinfulness.

Adam and Eve chose to sin...but we didn't??

Of course we did. All men (those who reach the age of accountability, that is) choose to sin, rather than loving God.

Those who do not reach the age of accountability are not condemned, for there is no wickedness in them.

We are stuck with the mistake? No man dies for his father's sin yet we die for our father, Adam's, sin.

We are stuck with the consequences of Adam's sin, yes.

But we are not punished for Adam's sin, because Christ went to the cross.
 

Bradley D

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By the logical implication of your theology that HE created the system of human progeny and hooked our lives into Adam's sinfulness.

Adam and Eve chose to sin...but we didn't?? We are stuck with the mistake? No man dies for his father's sin yet we die for our father, Adam's, sin.
And what about the serpent/Satan's role in enticing Eve to break God's commandment?
 

ttruscott

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Of course we did. All men (those who reach the age of accountability, that is) choose to sin, rather than loving God.

Those who do not reach the age of accountability are not condemned, for there is no wickedness in them.
We die due to sinfulness at every and any age...not because of reaching any so called age of accountability.

We are stuck with the consequences of Adam's sin, yes.

But we are not punished for Adam's sin, because Christ went to the cross.
I know we are not punished for Adam's sin, only our own, but neither are we stuck with the consequences for his sin, ie, death. because as Rom 5:12 we all die in Adam's death because we have all sinned.

I know that until recently we have had to hold in abeyance our understanding that GOD forcing the consequences upon supposed innocents is an evil beyond HIS goodness and that some people who die do not die for evil but for some other destructive force that GOD allows to overcome their purity (their lack of wickedness) because there has been no other way to interpret the reality the Bible explains to us...until now.

Now those who cry for a theology that has no hint nor aroma of blasphemy and that Satan can't use for an instant to discredit HIM (though he will pretend he can, (Rom 1!) are praising HIS name of HIS unsullied goodness without at the same time believing that HE put the consequences of someone else's sin upon another or causes them to inherit the sin of another, whichever our sect considers to be true. No need for doublethink anymore, ie, believing two contradictory opposites can be both true at the same time.
 

Eric h

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How is the consequences passed down to all flesh if it was not by the will of GOD!? This blasphemy declares that by HIS will, every person comes into existence as corrupt stinking rags - including the elect, HIS Bride ! HE didn't even curse any of Satan's children with this but all of mankind get Adam's curse!!! ???

If life on Earth was all we are given, then I could agree with you. We might spend a century here, but God can raise us all to an eternal and greater good life after death. Christ died for you, me and everyone else, this must mean that Christ loves you as much as he loves himself. What more can you ask of God?
Can you not see how rank this ideology is in light of HIS self revelation of HIS character???

It has been said that a theologian is anyone who has an opinion about the nature of God. It has also been said; that a theologian reveals more of their own nature than they do about God. Can you create a universe, if the answer is no, then we cannot think in the way that God thinks.
 

ttruscott

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Can you create a universe, if the answer is no, then we cannot think in the way that God thinks.
The bible is totally full of of truth for us about how GOD thinks. Your protestations that we cannot understand that is a deke to avoid dissecting the doublethink dissonance I accuse you of dwelling within...you can only deny.
 

JudgeRightly

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We die due to sinfulness at every and any age...not because of reaching any so called age of accountability.

If by that you mean that babies in the womb die because of their own sinfulness, what sin have they committed?

I know we are not punished for Adam's sin, only our own,

Good.

but neither are we stuck with the consequences for his sin, ie, death,

The wages of sin is death.

Because Adam sinned, death came to all men.

That's the consequences of Adam's sin. But that death, which is the consequence for Adam's sin, is not the punishment for the individual's sin.

because as Rom 5:12 we all die in Adam's death because we have all sinned.

Which is what I'm saying.

I know that until recently we have had to hold in abeyance our understanding that GOD forcing the consequences upon supposed innocents is an evil beyond HIS goodness

Are you saying that it is evil for God to allow the consequences of a father's actions to affect the child?

and that some people who die do not die for evil but for some other destructive force that GOD allows to overcome their purity (their lack of wickedness)

Yes, God allows people to die due as a consequence for other people's actions, and God allows people to die as a result of natural disasters (which are not punishments, but simply one of the results of the fall of Adam).

because there has been no other way to interpret the reality the Bible explains to us...until now.

This sounds oddly close to being a claim to special revelation from God. Be careful.

Now those who cry for a theology that has no hint nor aroma of blasphemy and that Satan can't use for an instant to discredit HIM (though he will pretend he can, (Rom 1!) are praising HIS name of HIS unsullied goodness without at the same time believing that HE put the consequences of someone else's sin upon another or causes them to inherit the sin of another,

Are you asserting that the consequences of a person's actions, be it sinful or righteous or neither, cannot affect the people around him?

whichever our sect considers to be true.

Sect?

No need for doublethink anymore, ie, believing two contradictory opposites can be both true at the same time.

Are you asserting that I am guilty of such?
 
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ttruscott

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Do you know your life before earth? Scripture!
What is taught to me IN scripture I know about but my memories of that time are as missing as everyone else's...


JOB
Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the Sons of GOD shouted for joy? While talking to Job about the creation GOD asks where was Job when those watching the creation of the physical universe, the morning stars and ALL the Sons of GOD, when they saw HIS Divine nature revealed and HIS power and sang HIS praises and shouted for joy. I assume Job was there as a son of GOD and I assume we were all there singing our hearts out for joy!!!

Do I remember it? Not yet but I bet I do soon. The fact that I don't remember is not proof that it did not happen - there is much about our lives we, me and thee, do not remember...

I know some folk like to persuade us that these singers are the angles and not those of us born as human and even go so far as to interpret the words "
kal bene eloihim" as 'the angels' but it does not, it clearly says, ie, all the sons of GOD. I know they are just trying to help me understand their pov but this EISEGESIS confounds me.

ROMANS
I also find confirmation of this pov in
Romans 1 which teaches us that sinfulness warps our minds so much we can know the truth yet turn from it to believe a lie because we love sin more...an apt description of humans, even Christian humans. I refer to such verses as Rom 1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. We suppress the truth by wickedness and do not remember the truth of what we saw or what we experienced any longer. When was the truth about what may be known of GOD ever plain to the wicked on earth?? It was plain at one time but not any more.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. This tells us how HE proved the truth of HIS divinity and power to us in the creation of the world, the physical universe and we were there and we sang HIS praise!!!


21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools,
This also claims all creation knew GOD yet 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator...

PLANTING IS NOT A CREATION
Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation can be taken at face value as it can't contain any poetic, hyperbolic nor metaphoric words or it is not an explanation at all.

37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. The word to sow means to plant a seed, to remove it from a place of storage and scatter it in an appropriate garden - it never means to create.

Do we have a place of storage suitable for created spirits to wait until it is their time to be sown into the world of mankind? Well, yes we do as indicated in Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked dead are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. Shoob is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shûb - shoob. A primitive root; to turn back, to return, turn back
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back

English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

Berean Study Bible

The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.

New American Standard Bible

The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of language indicates that they were there before but left. We have humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there. We also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of the kingdom are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown? Sown cannot mean to be created as the devil does this sowing also and he can't create people. Does HIS explanation of the parable refer to the moving of people from Sheol attested to by Ps 9:17? How can orthodoxy declares it means something else and cannot be a reference hint to our pre-conception existence which we cannot remember?? And we got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the fact of PCE?) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God. ignoring to mention it was actually a return to where they were before.

Ain't eisegesis wonderful??? !!!
 

ttruscott

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If by that you mean that babies in the womb die because of sinfulness, what sin have they committed?
There were two kinds of sin before earth as I have explained already: the sin of the rejection of YHWH's deity and the sin of rebellion by some of those who had previously out their faith in HIS deity and truthfulness and so became HIS elect. The sin of the demons was to put their faith in the lie that YHWH was a liar and a false god which was the unforgivable sin and they were condemned on the spot though the actual judgment was postponed. The rebellion of the elect was the refusal to come out from among their friends and loved ones who had chosen to reject YHWH's word and claims. Some elect rebelled against the judgement as a whole and others rebelled when they were called to come out from among these now sinful elect, wanting to go with them thru life, not trusting them to GOD's merciful promise of salvation and sanctification.

If you disbelieve an infant can be evil then please consider the story of Jacob and Esau in the womb, fighting so hard their mother sought the LORD. Pay attention ot the weasel words (eisegetic words designed to hide the truth), wrestle and jostle. The word describing their fighting actually means TO CRUSH EACH OTHER TO PIECES, a word that must be interpreted as attempted murder most sinful.

And then we know some of the elect sinned as they are here called the sinful good seed needing to live with the demonic tares until the time of the harvest, that is, the time of the maturity of their sanctification, ie, in full accord with HIS decison to judge the demonic to end the postponement of the judgement mentioned in verse Matt 13:28 So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ (bring the judgement upon them?) 29 ‘NO!’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. ...proving the good seed are sinful and that the time of their maturity in holiness will be the end of the time of the postponement of the judgement and become the time of the harvest of the weeds to be burnt.

The wages of sin is death.

Because Adam sinned, death came to all men.
Read it again: Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- does NOT say we entered Adam's death because of his sin it says we entered his death because we were all sinners! It also says that sin entered this world with Adam but he was the third to sin in this word...unless he was a sinner before he entered the world and that is how he brought sin into the world first as the first person allowed here. It is obvious that the serpent was not created in the garden and was already a sinner when he arrived so the line makes no sense without playing eisegetical leapfrog!

Are you saying that it is evil for God to allow the consequences of a father's actions to affect the child?
There is a great leap between accepting that we experience the effects of a parents sinfulness and our being created as evil as a consequence of our being created...with no free will decison on our part to be evil.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Humans come into existence at conception. We are not pre-existing. Only God is.
Saying it doesn't prove it.

The people who sang HIS praises at the creation of the world (Job 38:7) certainly pre-existed the world. If them, why not us? Are we not sons of GOD? And no, angel does not refer to a race of beings, it is a job description. And yes, they are people too, not robots.
 

Bradley D

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The fact that children do not understand their guilt does not prove they are innocent. The fact they do not, as new humans planted, not created, into the world, understand the difference between good and evil does not prove they did not at some time previously have that understanding.
The people of Canaan would sacrifice their own children to the idols of Canaan. Psalm 106 tells us they were shedding "innocent blood."

"They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood" (Ps. 106:38).
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
The people of Canaan would sacrifice their own children to the idols of Canaan. Psalm 106 tells us they were shedding "innocent blood."

"They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood" (Ps. 106:38).
And Jesus called sinners good seed in the parable of the tares when none are good, not one. It is obvious that the terms innocent and good etc are not definitive but conform to context.
 

marke

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As God has dominion of His creation. God made man to have dominion over the living creatures of the earth.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Gen. 1:26).

I don't believe that Adam was created with evil intents. But, when tempted towards disobeying God and did so thus came the fall.
God knew Adam would sin but that in no way thwarted His plan to have fellowship with saints after saving men from their sins. As if to take the blame for sins on Himself, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and not imputing their sins unto them, if only they would believe and receive the Gospel to the salvation of their souls.
 

JudgeRightly

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God knew Adam would sin

Well, no.

Rather, God created an autonomous creature that He willed to have free will, the ability to choose, and that creature, Adam, chose to rebel against God.

God's will was to create beings that had wills of their own.

What you said implies, inherently, that Adam did NOT have a will of his own, simply because what he did was settled already.

Question: Could Adam have chosen to not eat the fruit of the Tree?

If not, then Adam, by definition, had no free will, and therefore could not have done otherwise.
 

marke

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Well, no.

Rather, God created an autonomous creature that He willed to have free will, the ability to choose, and that creature, Adam, chose to rebel against God.

God's will was to create beings that had wills of their own.

What you said implies, inherently, that Adam did NOT have a will of his own, simply because what he did was settled already.

Question: Could Adam have chosen to not eat the fruit of the Tree?

If not, then Adam, by definition, had no free will, and therefore could not have done otherwise.
Just because God knew Adam would sin is no reason to assume God made him sin. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world because God made provision for sins to be forgiven before Adam was created.
 

JudgeRightly

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Just because God knew Adam would sin

This is called "begging the question."

It is a logical fallacy. You are assuming the truth of your conclusion.

First you must establish that God knew that Adam would sin.

Once you have done that, then you can say this.

is no reason to assume God made him sin.

It's called "Theological Fatalism."

I recommend reading this article:

But to provide a brief summary (which can be found in the article):


  • Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism.
  • (1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
  • (2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
  • (3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
  • (4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
  • (5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (pq), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
  • (6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
  • (7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
  • (8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
  • (9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
  • (10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]


Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

I will reply to this in another thread at a later point.

because God made provision for sins to be forgiven before Adam was created.

Which in no way means that Adam would, without fail, sin. It simply means that God is smart enough to have a contingency plan in place for when men do evil.
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
God knew Adam would sin but that in no way thwarted His plan to have fellowship with saints after saving men from their sins. As if to take the blame for sins on Himself, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself and not imputing their sins unto them, if only they would believe and receive the Gospel to the salvation of their souls.
If God knew Adam would sin. Why did God tell Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
We are stuck with the consequences of Adam's sin, yes.
That this can be believed at the same time by the same person who believes GOD is love is amazing to me.

The consequences of sin is death, ie, all death is for personal sin, not Adam's sin:
Jeremiah 31:30
Instead, everyone will die for their own sin

 
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